HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[sancho]

LCA with super cruise?? Come on guys??? hey is that true?? LCA cannot supercruise. We will need to redesign the air intakes... I dunno if am right, but can it?? really?

i thought just more powerful engine and a little alteration in air intakes would do the job....waiting foe experts like sancho to clear the matter..

I didn't say LCA already have, or would have SC for sure, nor am I an expert, but lets compare the facts and try to figure it out:

We know that the Eurofighter can SC with the EJ 200 engine, as well as the Gripen NG with the GE 414G engine and both engines are on offer for LCA MK2.

If I'm not wrong, the Gripen NG has a weight of 7,1t for the single seat and 7,4t for the twin seat which proved SC. The engine has a dry thrust of 62,3kN.
LCA MK1 has a weight of 5,7t (not sure if single, or twin seat) and all reports regarding LCA MK2 says nothing about airframe changes for more internal fuel, weapon stations, or payload similar to Gripen NG. The difference most likely will only be new techs like a new engine, or AESA radar, which means even if we take the same GE 414 engine, LCA MK2 still should be around 1t lighter than the Gripen NG.
Not to forget that the LCA also has a modern delta wing design, just like the EF and the Gripen NG.
So if the design and thrust is similar, but LCA MK2 will be clearly lighter, what could limit the it from SC?

Possibly the air intakes, if they are not big, or good designed enough. Maybe even the hot climate in India, we know that the MMRCA trials will be held in different areas in India, to see how the performance of the fighters will differ. UAE wants higher thrust engines for Rafale, because they wasn't satisfied with the engine performance in such hot conditions.

Imo, the better the thrust to weight ratio and the air intake design, the higher are the chances for SC capabilities.

Once again:

Gripen NG with GE414 engine- 62,3kN dry @ 7,1t weight
LCA MK2 with same engine - 62,3kN dry @ ~6,1t weight
LCA MK2 with EJ 200 engine - 60+kN dry @ less than 6t weight


But as I said, I am not an expert so please feel free to disagree, or comment on this!

 

[sancho]

Point 1, virtually everyone I've spoken to at the ADA and air force believe that the engine that meets the new thrust compliance bar and fits the Tejas with the least amount of engineering, fabrication or modification will be selected.

Important point which guarantees fast induction of LCA MK2!

The American F-414-400 is physically similar, if not identical, to the F-404 that currently powers the Tejas, and is, remember, a technological derivative of the same. Therefore, it stands to reason that ADA believes the people at GE when they say the F-414 is a spot-on fit without any tinkering.

The diameter of GE 404 and 414 is the same, but the 414 still will needs airframe changes, because it needs bigger air intakes which was the reason for new air intakes at F18SH compared to older F18 Hornet and the same at Gripen NG, compared to older Gripen C/D!

Similarly, based on information gleaned from the feasibility study, Eurojet boss Hartmut Tenter told Flightglobal earlier this year that "the EJ200 fits perfectly into the same hole." Ok.

And in one of the livefist articles from this year, they confirmed that no airframe changes are needed, not even at the air intakes!

Point 2, weight issues, which won't be taken, um, lightly. The F-414-400, at 1,109-kgs is approximately 120-kgs heavier than the EJ200.

Means the EJ 200 weighs around 990Kg, which is even less than the GE 404 IN20 in LCA MK1 (1035Kg)

Point 3, the F-414-400 has a stated maximum thrust of 98kN, more than the EJ200's 90kN, even though both technically meet the IAF's requirement for a 90kN turbofan. Will the extra thrust that the American engine apparently offers be enough reason to ignore the 120-kgs of additional weight that it brings to the competition? Maybe.

First of all, that is the afterburner thrust, the difference in dry thrust is only 2,3kN! Moreover both companies have offered more thrust, but while GE is searching for a foreign partner to further develop the 414 engine, which means more time for development and most likely also more money to fund the development, the EF Tranche 3 will most likely get a thrust improvment anyway:

Future of the EJ200

Engine uprating

The EuroJet consortium were required to build an engine (often referred to as EJ2x0) which had at least a 20% growth potential. There are already plans to carry out the necessary modifications to reach this higher (Stage-1) output in the 2000 to 2005 timeframe. Such an improvement will require a new Low Pressure Compressor (raising the pressure ratio to around 4.6) and an upgraded fan (increasing flow by around 10%). This would result in the dry thrust increasing to some 72kN (or 16,200lbf ) with a reheated output of around 103kN (or 23,100lbf). Given recent increases in the weight of the Typhoon it may not be unexpected to find this upgrade performed in the near future.

More interestingly perhaps is Rolls-Royce and EuroJet's plan to increase the output 30% above the baseline specification as a Stage-2 modification. Such an upgrade will require more substantial plantwide changes including a new LP compressor and turbine and an improvement in the total pressure ratio. These upgrades would yield a new dry thrust of around 78kN (or 17,500lbf) with a reheated output of around 120kN (or 27,000lbf). The indications are that these improvements will come on stream between 2005 and 2010, in time for the Typhoon's Mid Life Upgrade expected around 2016.

Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Propulsion

So EJ 200 for LCA could be much closer, if not even better in terms of thrust.

Point 4, the folks at ADA have had a great amount of experience working with GE on the LCA programme, so the American firm is well-versed with the rough and tumble of the IAF's qualitative requirements. Working with a firm that is already "in the picture" about your requirements is an intangible consideration, but a consideration nevertheless.

EADS, one of the members of the EF consortium is also involved in the LCA development, as a consultant to solve the weight problems. That means they know about the requirements of the programm as well and it should be clear, that one of their solutions will be the integration of an lighter engine, like their EJ 200!

Point 5, if the IAF's mantra for lowering inventory type is taken even a bit seriously, then the outcome of this competition could bring a great amount of influence to bear on the far more lucrative MMRCA competition. This alone could give the government a huge amount of leverage either way, though it could also slow things down significantly to the detriment of the LCA programme.

By the fact that LCA development is totally delayed and they already thinking about the technically more advanced MCA, the aim should be getting LCA MK2 done as fast as possible and as much ToT, or commonality to future MCA instead of LCA.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Well GE 414 is a proven design for marine operations....Does the EJ 200 have any chance when they play this card? Everyone knows the navy is also after it.

 

[jha]

good analysis sancho...

anyways since everyone here is speculating lets hope for the best.

 

[Dark Angel]

I personelly think that we are gonna opt for GE414-400 as Mark1 and maybe just maybe EJ with TV and Supercruise in MK2

 

[sudhir007]

DRDO in a fix over Antony remarks on naval plane: India Today - Latest Breaking News from India, World, Business, Cricket, Sports, Bollywood.

DRDO in a fix over Antony remarks on naval plane

Officials in the higher echelons of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are stumped by defence minister A. K. Antony's written response to a question in the Rajya Sabha.

The minister had said: "Deficiencies have been detected in the airframe and other associated equipment of the (Tejas Navy) aircraft. The DRDO is working out modalities with various organisations for rectifying these deficiencies by suitable modifications to the engine/airframe design."

Though no one in the DRDO was willing to go on record, a senior project official of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft in Bangalore said a problem with the "airframe" could not arise simply because the prototype was still being built.

"We have built the external structure. We are now fitting the internal equipment like electricals, hydraulics and plumbing," he said, adding that the aerodynamics of the naval version of Tejas was the same as that of the two-seater trainer version flown in November last. "But since the structural load on the naval Tejas will be much higher, its airframe will have to be tougher," he added.

Officials at the DRDO headquarters said they had sent a draft response to the question Antony answered in Parliament. " We wonder where the mix- up between our response and the minister's reply could have occurred," an official said.

As the system for replies to Parliament posers go, the question is first processed by a Parliament cell of the defence ministry and then sent to the department or agency to which it pertains.

Based on these inputs, a draft reply is prepared and then vetted by a designated joint secretary and then the defence secretary. Then it reaches the minister's office where it is once again examined by his private secretary. For a 'misinformation' to pass through scrutiny of so many experienced hands is a rarity.

 

[xuxu1457]

i thought just more powerful engine and a little alteration in air intakes would do the job....waiting foe experts like sancho to clear the matter..

Funny,Body structural of the 3rd ge-fighter is less strength than the 4th ,as if you put rocket engine in your bicycle,it can't reach the speed 100KM/h,before that its body will fracture~

 

[jha]

thanks for putting it that way..

anyways lets wait and watch..

 

[sancho]

Well GE 414 is a proven design for marine operations....Does the EJ 200 have any chance when they play this card? Everyone knows the navy is also after it.

Difficult to say, the EF consortium made studies about the naval version of EF and proposed it for IN's RFI too, so a naval version of the EJ 200 must be possible too.
However, looking at numbers of LCA and N-LCA to be ordered and the status of N-LCA development, it should be clear that the main focus lies on engines for IAF LCA MK2. These will come in numbers, whereas N-LCA is just a small addition to Mig 29K.

I personelly think that we are gonna opt for GE414-400 as Mark1 and maybe just maybe EJ with TV and Supercruise in MK2

Unlilely, because GE 414 needs at least air intake changes, but LCA MK one is already in production, so there won't be any change that could cause delays.

 

[Indian-Devil]

Funny,Body structural of the 3rd ge-fighter is less strength than the 4th ,as if you put rocket engine in your bicycle,it can't reach the speed 100KM/h,before that its body will fracture~

First you need to check we are not discussing any bicycle here, its an Aircraft. An Aircraft which is already flying and we are discussing for an engine which is giving 15% higher thrust than the existing one. And why you are so worried abt it , we will not come to you for its body fracture.

 

[jha]

some news about the EW suite for LCA..

In mid 2006 it was reported that India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will have a sophisticated electronic warfare system for both offensive and defensive purpose. A agreement was Signed between Defense Research and Development Organizations Laboratory, the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) and Elisra group which is owned Elbit System of Israel. The Joint venture will give birth to the "Mayavi" EWS which will be used by Indian Air Force on the Tejas and the Israeli Air Force on their F-35 JSF which its purchasing from USA. Mayavi is supposed to be the most effective Electronic warfare system when it enters service.

FEATURES:
1. It will have Radar Warning Receiver to detect Radio waves. This will notify the pilot when he is being engaged by either radar lock or missile attack.

2. It will have Self Protection Jammer for radar deception. This will jam ground based radars, on-board radars and incoming missile by interfering with its radio frequency.

3. It will have Laser Warning System to detect laser emission of laser guided weapons.

4. It will have Missile Approach Warning System which will automatically detect incoming missiles of all types and warn the pilot.

5. It will have a standard chuff/ flare deployment system which is common on most fighter today.


WORK-SHARING:
Under the agreement the work was done at the DARE laboratory in Bangalore with 70 % funding done by the Indian side and remaining by the Israeli. Under the agreement Elisra produced the the missile approach system and jamming pods where as DARE undertook the job of developing its cooling system, electromagnetic interference and susceptibility system as well as integration of all the systems on the aircraft. The Joint venture is believed to be in its final stages.


CONCLUSION:
Mayavi looks promising venture to me and should give the LCA a lethal edge over its possible rivals like the JF-17 and the J-10 which have a relatively immature EWS. This system will also provide great deal of defensive capability to the Tejas against enemy Surface to air missiles and advance air to air missiles. In today's ever complicated battle field where advancement and complexity provides the best results the Mayavi will provide a great sense of confidence in the pilots as it is cutting edge and complex. It will be the most advance EWS system in the world when it service and I won't be surprised if IAF orders it on their Su-30MKI and FGFA jointly developed with Russia.

Angle of Attack: Mayavi Electronic Warfare System

 

[jha]

an old but good article about MAYAWI

India, Israel Propose Joint Electronic Warfare Venture

India and Israel want to set up a joint venture to develop advanced electronic warfare (EW) systems for their air forces' fighter aircraft.

The proposed joint venture, the creation of which would cost around $100 million, is expected to get the go-ahead shortly with a signed deal between India's Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Bangalore, and the Elisra Group, Bene Beraq, Israel.

Seventy percent of the venture will be funded by DARE, which is part of the state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation, with Elisra paying the remaining 30 percent.

A senior DARE scientist said the proposed venture likely will get off the ground in the next three to six months at DARE facilities in Bangalore.

Elisra will develop approach warning systems, radar jamming pods and other systems, while DARE will develop cooling systems, electromagnetic interference and electromagnetic susceptibility systems, as well as system integration in the aircraft.

The program is to be fully operational in three years

The scientist said this venture will see an advanced EW system called MAYAVI developed for India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters that Israel plans to buy from the United States.

The EW system will feature advanced radar warning, radar jamming, and electronic combat and self-protection systems. It also will have an Integrated Defensive Electronic Radio Frequency Countermeasures system to help protect the LCA against radar-guided missiles.

Its Advanced Threat Infrared Countermeasures will protect aircraft against heat-seeking missiles, and be paired with the Common Missile Warning System.

"We are collaborating with Indian agencies for a number of defense programs, but, as per company policy, we do not discuss specific programs," an Elisra executive here said. The executive added that DARE was selected as a partner after trying several other defense partners in the world.

A senior Indian Defence Ministry official said India wants to forge alliances with Israeli companies to develop a variety of high-end defense technologies so that the Indian Defence Forces do not have to depend on the West for critical technologies.

Elisra has helped DARE in the past to develop an EW system called Tempest for the MiG-21 bis fighter upgrade program. EW systems from Elisra also are being supplied for the licensed production in India of 140 Sukhoi Su-31 MKI aircraft at Hindustan Aeronautics, Bangalore.

The Defence Ministry official said India has procured an unspecified number of EW suites from Israel for LCA prototypes, but declined to elaborate.

Article

 

[jha]

So with supercruising engine and MAYAWI suite integrated into LCA , what is this going to be ...
only thing it lacks is number of hard-points which most probably would be taken care of in MK-2..

AESA radar+MAYAWI + SUPERCRUISE + a mix of WEAPONRY ...very capable replacement of MIG-21 we are getting....

 

[Indian-Devil]

So with supercruising engine and MAYAWI suite integrated into LCA , what is this going to be ...
only thing it lacks is number of hard-points which most probably would be taken care of in MK-2..

AESA radar+MAYAWI + SUPERCRUISE + a mix of WEAPONRY ...very capable replacement of MIG-21 we are getting....

Buddy this month end we will come to know which engines is selected for LCA. I think EJ200 should be selected as its new engine with supercruise capabilities and there is scope for thrust increase by small changes in engine ( althogh it will decrease little life span of engine by some hundred hrs).

If EJ200 is selected with some changes like supercruise , thrust vectoring then LCA Mk2 will be really a deadly Aircraft.

 

[LCA Tejas]

Yeah, Thats cool... I will be fully operational soon... Iam so glad to hear this... Hope my Kid MK2 does well...