HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]

[Yasser76]

shooting down a subsonic spy drone could be shot down by a,machine gun .
it does,not qualify thunder as combat ready .
shoot down a su30mki or mirage2000 and I agree. unfortunately even your f16 never got near them during the balakot incident let alone thunders


broken record re your 251 comment
show where you got that from first
then we talk

Back up your claims on 6 Thunder crashes (which is a lie) than we will talk.

Mods, do we let people like this get away without wanrings?

Since when is a single Tweet a credible confirmation? And even more is nearing completion" does in no way mean "is soon on Tejas squadrons"!

They just bombard this thread with so much misinformation in the vain hope people simply do not question the vast amounts of BS.....

 

[Tair-Lahoti]

From THE PRINT INDIA: Tejas cleared for IAF: Implications for the service, & its chequered history with Indian fighters

Summary
PAST:

Project Started in 1983, India wanted to replace Mig-21. Which it failed to do so due to:
i- Technology Denial by the western countries.
ii- India was proficient in some technologies i.e metallurgy. Owing to the great Metallurgy Scientist, the head of DRDO Auranachalam.
iii- But India didn't have the technology of engine, radar, avionics etc.
iv- India started domestic engine Kaveri engine, which failed.

Tejas took its first flight in 2001, after western technology denial ended, and Tejas flew with American General Electric Engine.

Present:

Tejas is 50% indeginous and there is no shame in it: Engine, Avionics, Radar, Electronic Warfare suits, Ejection seats are all imported systems.

20 Tejas MK1 are in IOC (initial Operational Clearance), 20 of them are in FOC (Final Operational Clearance), 20 more are delivered in jan 2021.

Tejas MK1 can fire BVR Derby from Israel.........

FUTURE:

Tejas MK1A will start to roll out in 2023-24 with some newer systems, which will be better much than JF-17:

i- AESA RADAR, will be able to track 16 targets at the same time
ii- Will be able to launch Astra BVR
iii- Will have mid air refueling probe.......

iv- Enhanced Combat radius, and Electronic warfare ability.

Summary of a video posted by THE PRINT, only shared key points about TEJAS. Its all being said by the Print, and doesn't include or represent my views.

 

[Daghalodi]

Back up your claims on 6 Thunder crashes (which is a lie) than we will talk.

Mods, do we let people like this get away without wanrings?



They just bombard this thread with so much misinformation in the vain hope people simply do not question the vast amounts of BS.....

You are Right.

Bharati Trolls are spreading alot of disinformation about Tejas.

Its neccessary to expose those Indian Troll Rubbish

 

[Windjammer]

shooting down a subsonic spy drone could be shot down by a,machine gun .
it does,not qualify thunder as combat ready .
shoot down a su30mki or mirage2000 and I agree. unfortunately even your f16 never got near them during the balakot incident let alone thunders.

Yea except when the Indian SU-30 shot down a weather balloon, it was a feather in the cap.
Thunder has gained more combat experience than all of IAF's front line combined.
As for rest, that information is not for an Indian fanboy who spends all his time and energies to copy paste all under the sun just to sooth his tiny ego.

 

[Yasser76]

Yea except when the Indian SU-30 shot down a weather balloon, it was a feather in the cap.
Thunder has gained more combat experience than all of IAF's front line combined.
As for rest, that information is not for an Indian fanboy who spends all his time and energies to copy paste all under the sun just to sooth his tiny ego.

JF-17 lobbed missiles on to Indian targets, 12 squadrons of SU-30MKIs could not stop them.

That is all you really need to know.

 

[Anik101]

Metal cutting for first MWF prototype has started at HAL. First aircraft to roll out by mid of next year with first flight in 2023.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1351568582224723968

MWF will have 11 harpoints with payload capacity of 6.5 tons which is slightly better than mirage 2000H currently operated by IAF. It will also have IRST, AESA radar, and better thrust to weight ratio compared to mirage 2000H.

 

[MirageBlue]

Since when is a single Tweet a credible confirmation? And even more "nearing completion" does in no way mean "is soon on Tejas squadrons"!

We've known that the Astra Mk1 integration has been on-going for the Tejas Mk1 for a few months. Nothing new about it. This was just confirmation that it's near completion. Once done, test firings will be conducted and then the weapon is qualified for the Tejas Mk1. Next obvious step is to equip squadrons with the Astra Mk1, 248 of which has been ordered.

I think you have a problem with everything Indian..if you think this isn't credible, how is it that you cover Chinese aviation where almost nothing comes officially and most of it is from fanboys?

Mods, do we let people like this get away without wanrings?



They just bombard this thread with so much misinformation in the vain hope people simply do not question the vast amounts of BS.....

Wow! Look at the irony!!

Pot calling the kettle black! The biggest troll in this thread is complaining about misinformation!

 

[Deino]

...
I think you have a problem with everything Indian..if you think this isn't credible, how is it that you cover Chinese aviation where almost nothing comes officially and most of it is from fanboys?
...

Thanks for your reply and this indeed serious question: My point is - and that's valid for Russia too and most of all Turkey (see the TFX) - that in contrast to China there is always a lot of noise, so many chest-bumping announcements especially in social media but also official sources. They are claiming the world, they are all telling you this and that and SOON (IMO the most often word used in such posts) there WILL (IMO the second most often word used in such posts) be this and that ... and after watching the scene since years, barely anything happens, if it happens it is most often delayed, at much higher cost and worse performing than originally proclaimed.

That alone is not an issue, since delays and cost-overruns are pretty standard for any such major project, but the magnitude of discrepancy between claims and reality is vastly larger for Russia and India in comparison to China.

A reason or explanation is surely, that China barely announces so much, so that delays failures and issues become less apparent, but it is most of all this point of concern.

Another is the typical bias - like the one exemplified just a few days ago with the new carrier borne fighter:

My post indeed to mock was "look, it seems to be a Rafale clone", while all Indians I know always claim, only Chinese copy regardless how huge the differences.

And right the first replies here and at other social media were as expected:
- no, see the differences, much larger than between J-20 and F-22, FC-31 and F-31 or J-10 and Lavi
- NO, Indians are all honest peoples, they invent their designs on their own, we respect intellectual properties ... only Chinese steal!
- ...

I could continue this ridiculousness until afternoon and that's my point: It is a huge double standard.

Otherwise I have nothing against India nor its achievements. I admire its peoples, the country, culture, history and food as much as I admire China as a foreigner. I'm always surprised how much different both cultures evolved influenced by politics and religion thru history and where both are now.

As such I have in all honest nothing against "all Indian", but I have issues with showing off and boaster, especially since others are made responsible for everything and every failure simply because you started with an unrealistic approach. And so back to the topic: With everything I know and have learned in recent years, it is illusory to assume that HAL / ADA or whoever will successfully complete the Tejas Mk.1A, Tejas Mk.2, TEDBF / ORCA and AMCA by 2026 or 2030. And that's not because I wouldn't grant India anything, but simply the experience with the LCA program, the HJT-36, ... and much more.

 

[Yasser76]

Thanks for your reply and this indeed serious question: My point is - and that's valid for Russia too and most of all Turkey (see the TFX) - that in contrast to China there is always a lot of noise, so many chest-bumping announcements especially in social media but also official sources. They are claiming the world, they are all telling you this and that and SOON (IMO the most often word used in such posts) there WILL (IMO the second most often word used in such posts) be this and that ... and after watching the scene since years, barely anything happens, if it happens it is most often delayed, at much higher cost and worse performing than originally proclaimed.

That alone is not an issue, since delays and cost-overruns are pretty standard for any such major project, but the magnitude of discrepancy between claims and reality is vastly larger for Russia and India in comparison to China.

A reason or explanation is surely, that China barely announces so much, so that delays failures and issues become less apparent, but it is most of all this point of concern.

Another is the typical bias - like the one exemplified just a few days ago with the new carrier borne fighter:

My post indeed to mock was "look, it seems to be a Rafale clone", while all Indians I know always claim, only Chinese copy regardless how huge the differences.

And right the first replies here and at other social media were as expected:
- no, see the differences, much larger than between J-20 and F-22, FC-31 and F-31 or J-10 and Lavi
- NO, Indians are all honest peoples, they invent their designs on their own, we respect intellectual properties ... only Chinese steal!
- ...

I could continue this ridiculousness until afternoon and that's my point: It is a huge double standard.

Otherwise I have nothing against India nor its achievements. I admire its peoples, the country, culture, history and food as much as I admire China as a foreigner. I'm always surprised how much different both cultures evolved influenced by politics and religion thru history and where both are now.

As such I have in all honest nothing against "all Indian", but I have issues with showing off and boaster, especially since others are made responsible for everything and every failure simply because you started with an unrealistic approach. And so back to the topic: With everything I know and have learned in recent years, it is illusory to assume that HAL / ADA or whoever will successfully complete the Tejas Mk.1A, Tejas Mk.2, TEDBF / ORCA and AMCA by 2026 or 2030. And that's not because I wouldn't grant India anything, but simply the experience with the LCA program, the HJT-36, ... and much more.

Excellent post from someone who has in depth knowledge, now watch Indians go crazy on this thread...

 

[Deino]

Excellent post from someone who has in depth knowledge, now watch Indians go crazy on this thread...

Thanks my friend. Best and take care.

 

[VkdIndian]

Thanks for your reply and this indeed serious question:

An apt and unbiased analysis.

Usage of words SOON and WILL has been bane of the Indian PSU defence undertakings. They have failed repeatedly in delivering on thier promises.

This time their claim is that they have changed the procedures and processes. For Indian audience that sounds like a hope and for detractors it continues to sound like hollow promises.

These promises should turn into clear and visible work and results within one year since a lot has been promised within that time frame.

Being an Indian I am hopeful. Next 1 year is not too long a period to lay bare the realities. So I will wait and watch with fingers crossed.

 

[MirageBlue]

Thanks for your reply and this indeed serious question: My point is - and that's valid for Russia too and most of all Turkey (see the TFX) - that in contrast to China there is always a lot of noise, so many chest-bumping announcements especially in social media but also official sources. They are claiming the world, they are all telling you this and that and SOON (IMO the most often word used in such posts) there WILL (IMO the second most often word used in such posts) be this and that ... and after watching the scene since years, barely anything happens, if it happens it is most often delayed, at much higher cost and worse performing than originally proclaimed.

That alone is not an issue, since delays and cost-overruns are pretty standard for any such major project, but the magnitude of discrepancy between claims and reality is vastly larger for Russia and India in comparison to China.

A reason or explanation is surely, that China barely announces so much, so that delays failures and issues become less apparent, but it is most of all this point of concern.

Another is the typical bias - like the one exemplified just a few days ago with the new carrier borne fighter:

My post indeed to mock was "look, it seems to be a Rafale clone", while all Indians I know always claim, only Chinese copy regardless how huge the differences.

And right the first replies here and at other social media were as expected:
- no, see the differences, much larger than between J-20 and F-22, FC-31 and F-31 or J-10 and Lavi
- NO, Indians are all honest peoples, they invent their designs on their own, we respect intellectual properties ... only Chinese steal!
- ...

I could continue this ridiculousness until afternoon and that's my point: It is a huge double standard.

Otherwise I have nothing against India nor its achievements. I admire its peoples, the country, culture, history and food as much as I admire China as a foreigner. I'm always surprised how much different both cultures evolved influenced by politics and religion thru history and where both are now.

As such I have in all honest nothing against "all Indian", but I have issues with showing off and boaster, especially since others are made responsible for everything and every failure simply because you started with an unrealistic approach. And so back to the topic: With everything I know and have learned in recent years, it is illusory to assume that HAL / ADA or whoever will successfully complete the Tejas Mk.1A, Tejas Mk.2, TEDBF / ORCA and AMCA by 2026 or 2030. And that's not because I wouldn't grant India anything, but simply the experience with the LCA program, the HJT-36, ... and much more.

You are entitled to your views.

The biggest difference between India and China is the political system.

India being a democracy with all it's committees, audit agencies, massive bureaucracy and red-tapism, etc. means that things don't always move at the pace one wants. There's always roadblocks that don't necessarily disappear because the politicians don't care about anything else but how to get votes. Strategic calculations, etc. are mostly left to technocrats and bureaucrats who can and will delay files. Plus, India is a very lucrative defence market. That naturally means all companies that sell billions of $ worth of products have every reason to stifle, bad mouth or scuttle indigenous programs. Bribery happens, articles are planted.

Luckily, even with all that, the Tejas somehow managed to keep going through various Govts, some that didn't care about self reliance and some that were more nationalistic and wanted the program to succeed.

A lot has changed in the last few years with the NDA govt. at the helm looking to reverse the trend of massive imports and make India a defence exporter. The Govt. has put 101 items on an Import ban list. Self Reliance is the new mantra and everyone is repeating it because the Govt. has put a lot of pressure on agencies for it.

Compared to that is a Communist nation like China where there is very little transparency, and political dictats aren't subject to the vagaries that democracies impose, where a new Govt. isn't likely to change funding priorities, etc. If the govt. has the will to push through and enforce policies, there really isn't anyone out there to question and oppose them the way the multiple opposition parties in India always do. There's a BIG curtain in all Communist nations and propaganda and lies are de jure for them all. Soviet Russia was that way, North Korea is that way and so is China.

Anyway this is a big topic and probably not right for this thread as it may derail current discussions.

 

[ziaulislam]

Again, no need to lie, just provide evidence. HAL has only produced 260 MKIs so far, 9 have been lost to accidents, that gives you 251 MKIs, approx 12 Sqds worth assuming some examples are for test and TACDE.

Only 3 Thunder crashes in 10 years, can you provide evidence of 6 crashes?

More you lie more I will get a chance to expose you. Stick to the debate. Yes Rafael is advanced,

Truth is in 2 years from now IAF will be smallest it has ever been vis a vis PAF, No amount of lies can hide that

11 .crashes per indian open source

Indian Air Force, Indian Army and Naval Aviation Accidents and Incidents - [www.bharat-rakshak.com]

A comprehensive database of Aircraft Accidents and losses at www.bharat-rakshak.com, spanning over 80 years

www.bharat-rakshak.com

vs
2 confirmed 1 unkown speculative crash

Thanks for your reply and this indeed serious question: My point is - and that's valid for Russia too and most of all Turkey (see the TFX) - that in contrast to China there is always a lot of noise, so many chest-bumping announcements especially in social media but also official sources. They are claiming the world, they are all telling you this and that and SOON (IMO the most often word used in such posts) there WILL (IMO the second most often word used in such posts) be this and that ... and after watching the scene since years, barely anything happens, if it happens it is most often delayed, at much higher cost and worse performing than originally proclaimed.

That alone is not an issue, since delays and cost-overruns are pretty standard for any such major project, but the magnitude of discrepancy between claims and reality is vastly larger for Russia and India in comparison to China.

A reason or explanation is surely, that China barely announces so much, so that delays failures and issues become less apparent, but it is most of all this point of concern.

Another is the typical bias - like the one exemplified just a few days ago with the new carrier borne fighter:

My post indeed to mock was "look, it seems to be a Rafale clone", while all Indians I know always claim, only Chinese copy regardless how huge the differences.

And right the first replies here and at other social media were as expected:
- no, see the differences, much larger than between J-20 and F-22, FC-31 and F-31 or J-10 and Lavi
- NO, Indians are all honest peoples, they invent their designs on their own, we respect intellectual properties ... only Chinese steal!
- ...

I could continue this ridiculousness until afternoon and that's my point: It is a huge double standard.

Otherwise I have nothing against India nor its achievements. I admire its peoples, the country, culture, history and food as much as I admire China as a foreigner. I'm always surprised how much different both cultures evolved influenced by politics and religion thru history and where both are now.

As such I have in all honest nothing against "all Indian", but I have issues with showing off and boaster, especially since others are made responsible for everything and every failure simply because you started with an unrealistic approach. And so back to the topic: With everything I know and have learned in recent years, it is illusory to assume that HAL / ADA or whoever will successfully complete the Tejas Mk.1A, Tejas Mk.2, TEDBF / ORCA and AMCA by 2026 or 2030. And that's not because I wouldn't grant India anything, but simply the experience with the LCA program, the HJT-36, ... and much more.

Even for a country like USA or china
Starting a new program will take atleast a decade

India it will take more time

Lets not kid our self, mk2 is new plan its not tejas

Similarly OCRA is new twin engine plan its no where near tejas

The timelien that IAF expects for these are after 2030(production 120 tejas till 2029)

But suspect OCRA if ordered will be well beyond 2035

 

[Tair-Lahoti]

From THE PRINT INDIA: Tejas cleared for IAF: Implications for the service, & its chequered history with Indian fighters

Summary
PAST:

Project Started in 1983, India wanted to replace Mig-21. Which it failed to do so due to:
i- Technology Denial by the western countries.
ii- India was proficient in some technologies i.e metallurgy. Owing to the great Metallurgy Scientist, the head of DRDO Auranachalam.
iii- But India didn't have the technology of engine, radar, avionics etc.
iv- India started domestic engine Kaveri engine, which failed.

Tejas took its first flight in 2001, after western technology denial ended, and Tejas flew with American General Electric Engine.

Present:

Tejas is 50% indeginous and there is no shame in it: Engine, Avionics, Radar, Electronic Warfare suits, Ejection seats are all imported systems.

20 Tejas MK1 are in IOC (initial Operational Clearance), 20 of them are in FOC (Final Operational Clearance), 20 more are delivered in jan 2021.

Tejas MK1 can fire BVR Derby from Israel.........

FUTURE:

Tejas MK1A will start to roll out in 2023-24 with some newer systems, which will be better much than JF-17:

i- AESA RADAR, will be able to track 16 targets at the same time
ii- Will be able to launch Astra BVR
iii- Will have mid air refueling probe.......

iv- Enhanced Combat radius, and Electronic warfare ability.

Summary of a video posted by THE PRINT, only shared key points about TEJAS. Its all being said by the Print, and doesn't include or represent my views.

I don't know what is good in this videos for Indians' that Mevrick liked the summary. From my perspective:
i- Tejas current version is not better than JF-17, as admitted in the video.
ii- Future Tejas MK1A will be better than JF-17 block-1 and 2., as showed in the video and you cant compare it with block-3 as we don't know the real capabilities of that jet yet.
iii- They said all of the delay was due to western technology denial, which ended in 2001 as said by the Print. yet it took 20 years to materialize.
iv- Even if we accept the excuse that all of the delay was due to engine and technology denial, then Russia was still there for India.. Russia was providing top of the line gadgets, then why India couldn't get it done?
v. Tejas MK1A is promised to take first flight in 23-24, I don't know what is there to be happy about that? it will take further 3 to 4 to induct them.

other matters are all pertain to technical aspects, which I can't say anything about. Experts can make comments.

 

[Yasser76]

Reasons why LCA will never be exported

1) Lack of enthusiasm by IAF, even if they order 83 LCA it pretty much seems it is being forced on them
2) US Engine will need US permission
3) Strange mix of weapons (mainly Israeli/Indian) that are not in service in 99% of countries
4) Price, seems to go up or down depending on HAL, also 2 JF-17s can be purchased for 1 LCA
5) Training, does India have training infrastructure to train/convert pilots on LCA? No two seaters yet
6) Not combat proven


Now look at JF-17

1) PAF fully behind all blocks, in 8 PAF squadrons, Nigerian AF, Myanmar AF
2) Chinese or Russian engine, usually no export controls
3) Can use Chinese, US, Pakistani, Brazilian missiles
4) Price very competative, China will even give loan guarantees
5) PAF Has vast training infrastucture with 1 squadron dedicated to conversion and 26 two seater produced, can easily handle foreign training like we did for Nigeria
6) Saw combat against India