HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]

[VkdIndian]

Is there any nation in the world that takes inputs from public forums to develop their fighters?
I am sure that some of the finest or even modest aircraft across the world were developed without the inputs from any public forums.
I am not an insider who knows how Indian government does the business but quite sure that Indian fighter program wouldn’t be taking inputs from this or any other forum.

 

[MirageBlue]

I know the Chinese are always accused of copying but isn't this an exact Rafale-clone?

View attachment 707967

I'll be frank enough and tell you this- the Indian Navy and the IAF both hold the Rafale in very high regard. If you wanna call it a Rafale clone, please go ahead, it doesn't bother me one bit. India isn't into copying and reverse engineering, that much is a fact. Yes, design inspirations can be taken from existing solutions. Such as the LERX on the JF-17 that is an exact copy of the one on the Super Hornet.

There was an interview with a senior IN aviator many years ago where he talked about how the IN would want a Rafale like fighter but given the technology at India's disposal back then, it couldn't be attempted and we had to stick to the single engine LCA Navy. Things have moved forward quite a bit since then and the IN as well as ADA agree that this is now feasible, given the LCA Navy's carrier compatibility trials success.

Take a Tejas Mk2, increase the aspect ratio of the wings and reduce the wing sweep (for lower landing speed), droop the nose (as was done with LCA Navy), add internal fuel tanks and add a second engine and you there you have the TEDBF. That's how it looks the way it does, not by copying a Rafale. But you are free to draw your own conclusions.

If it superficially resembles the Rafale, so be it. The Rafale is a gorgeous fighter and a template for how a great naval fighter design can be a great air force fighter as well. If ADA designers go with a design that can be adapted into a good IAF fighter as well, then we have the possibility of larger production run for the TEDBF and ORCA on the same assembly line.

 

[ziaulislam]

When your enemy is making a mistake never interrupt them!
10 Years from now India will be the only country making 4th Gen planes and claim they are world beating.

basically HAL is engaged in developing three different 4.5 gen aircrafts
HAL tejas
HAL mk2 (larger, canarad, different engine)
HAL OCRA (twin engine)

all of these are going to come post 2030. This approach will work against Pakistan but not china, whole northern india is at risk for any conflict, conflict wont be limited to Himalayan mountain/western command as almost ALL Indians think

where is AMCA?

if i was IAF chief, i would have asked HAL to just focus on AMCA and forget about everything else, i would instead ask for license production and off set investment in AMCA. HAL R&D in tejas would help but it needed more experience by getting into license production/full tot of 4.5 gen western platform..

this could be rafale, gripen, f16..looking at india financial situation gripen was no brainer choice..i think india could have pulled off license production of GE414(just like sweds did) and would have benefited from all the ToT..

gripen NG in >300 numbers(~ 15b$) would have been lethal aircraft and would have allowed IAF to retire mig 21, mig27, Juaguars, mig29 & mirages2000 and keep 40 squardons, it cost would still have been 15-16 b, the amount iAF spent on rafale & tejas one is too expensive and the other has too many issues with respect to maintence and it being underpowered(20% underpowered as compared to gripen with MUCH HIGHER DRAG)


instead we are looking at 6.5b +8b investment, one with IAF waivers & still just 50% indigenous components, he other with no ToT


FYI brazil is getting complete ToT at 4.5b$ for 36 gripen NG, this would have been much lower per aircraft cost if they opted for 100+ numbers

 

[MirageBlue]

Is there any nation in the world that takes inputs from public forums to develop their fighters?
I am sure that some of the finest or even modest aircraft across the world were developed without the inputs from any public forums.
I am not an insider who knows how Indian government does the business but quite sure that Indian fighter program wouldn’t be taking inputs from this or any other forum.

No one's opinion on this forum matters one bit outside of here. There are paid professionals who take decisions rather than couch potatoes with a lot of time on their hands and the need to troll.

The facts are there for us to see. Ignore petty trolls. They don't matter in the real world.

-The Tejas Mk2 design is frozen. And it is in detailed design with metal cutting for a prototype to begin soon. IAF is fully behind this program, with monthly requirements meetings and reviews. IAF personnel are deputed to the program from the start, unlike in the case of the LCA program at it's start. This is not an R&D program, the goal is to get a Mirage-2000 class fighter in the air in the 4 years.

-The Tejas Mk1A contract will be signed at Aero India 2021 in a couple of weeks' time. All groundwork laid. As things stand, it is the most affordable yet capable solution for the IAF to get it's Bison's replaced.

-The TEDBF has the full support of the Indian Navy. The only question-mark is whether the Rafale/Super Hornet will be pursued or not for IAC-2. The big question mark is whether IAC-2 will be approved, and if so, will it use EMALS for CATOBAR ops. If so, the TEDBF will need significant changes since it is being designed today as a STOBAR fighter.

The IN has tried to tie it's Rafale/Super Hornet acquisition to that of the IAF, but there are too many issues with doing that..like what if the IAF selects F-21?

 

[Yasser76]

No one's opinion on this forum matters one bit outside of here. There are paid professionals who take decisions rather than couch potatoes with a lot of time on their hands and the need to troll.

The facts are there for us to see. Ignore petty trolls. They don't matter in the real world.

-The Tejas Mk2 design is frozen. And it is in detailed design with metal cutting for a prototype to begin soon. IAF is fully behind this program, with monthly requirements meetings and reviews. IAF personnel are deputed to the program from the start, unlike in the case of the LCA program at it's start. This is not an R&D program, the goal is to get a Mirage-2000 class fighter in the air in the 4 years.

-The Tejas Mk1A contract will be signed at Aero India 2021 in a couple of weeks' time. All groundwork laid. As things stand, it is the most affordable yet capable solution for the IAF to get it's Bison's replaced.

-The TEDBF has the full support of the Indian Navy. The only question-mark is whether the Rafale/Super Hornet will be pursued or not for IAC-2. The big question mark is whether IAC-2 will be approved, and if so, will it use EMALS for CATOBAR ops. If so, the TEDBF will need significant changes since it is being designed today as a STOBAR fighter.

The IN has tried to tie it's Rafale/Super Hornet acquisition to that of the IAF, but there are too many issues with doing that..like what if the IAF selects F-21?

So this is it, for the next 10-20 years we can well expect India to design, build and produce essentially 4 different types of 4th Gen fighters, whilst inducting possibly more foreign fighter for it's Navy and Air force?

That alone will be a massive effort, out of the reach of all countries, bar maybe US and China.

Meanwhile rivals are just focusing on 2-3 types and mostly 5th Gen?

You see where this all goes bad 10 years from now?

 

[The Maverick]

we,are still flying 120 mig21 bison
you Pakistanis are still flying 200 f7 and mirage 5s

so in house built tejas is a quantum.leap
as is licensed built thunders .

those saying 300 gripen costing 15 billion
try close to 25 billion and 15 years to build this and virtually screw driver technology only

we will obtain 70 plus Rafale and 123 Tejas, inside 10 years at cost of 20 billion dollars...

and post 2030 tejas mark 2

I agree we will.fall behind fifth generation technology way behind China possibly even pakistan .

 

[Yasser76]

we,are still flying 120 mig21 bison
you Pakistanis are still flying 200 f7 and mirage 5s

so in house built tejas is a quantum.leap
as is licensed built thunders .

those saying 300 gripen costing 15 billion
try close to 25 billion and 15 years to build this and virtually screw driver technology only

we will obtain 70 plus Rafale and 123 Tejas, inside 10 years at cost of 20 billion dollars...

and post 2030 tejas mark 2

I agree we will.fall behind fifth generation technology way behind China possibly even pakistan .

"We will" "we will" "we will". The basis of Indian defence.

Also please note F-7 and Mirage numbers are pulled out of your backside. We only have 7 Mirage/F-7 squadrons now. How did you get 200 planes!? That is 28 planes a squadron!!!

 

[The Maverick]

"We will" "we will" "we will". The basis of Indian defence.

Also please note F-7 and Mirage numbers are pulled out of your backside. We only have 7 Mirage/F-7 squadrons now. How did you get 200 planes!? That is 28 planes a squadron!!!

no sqds now world wide are 18 to 20
wiki says, 55 f7pg
150 mirage rise
10 sqds is 50 percent of your air Force

 

[Yasser76]

no sqds now world wide are 18 to 20
wiki says, 55 f7pg
150 mirage rise
10 sqds is 50 percent of your air Force

Ah, now I understand why you type so much crap. You use Wiki as a primary source.


PAF squadron strength is 18 planes. 7 x 18 is 126

 

[The Maverick]

Ah, now I understand why you type so much crap. You use Wiki as a primary source.


PAF squadron strength is 18 planes. 7 x 18 is 126

Pakistan Air Force (2021) (wdmma.org)

Not wiki

But massive numbers of obselete F7 & Mirages and dated 2021

 

[Yasser76]

Pakistan Air Force (2021) (wdmma.org)

Not wiki

But massive numbers of obselete F7 & Mirages and dated 2021

This list is full of inaccuracies. For example it lists PAF as operation AH-1 and Bell 412, it also has PAF down as 2 Falcons when it is 3.

Maybe that is why your posts are so innacurate too (in addition to your usual lies).

Real number of Mirages in PAF service is closer to 90, number of F-7PGs (F-7s almost all retired) is around 60.

in 2021 you can expect at least one more Mirage sqd to be retired too, so PAF will end up with approx

3 Mirage sqds (mostly ROSE upgrades)
3 F-70G sqds (manufactured in 90s and with Grifo radar)
5 F-16 sqds
9 JF-17 sqds

Then take into account every passing year will see 1-2 sqds be replaced by JF-17s, it puts PAF in a much better position vis a vis IAF

7 MIG-21 sqds
6 Jaguar sqds

All the above aircraft at least 40-50 years old. Until first operational MK1a squadron (2024 optimistically), you need to retire at least half the above (if not all the MIG-21 sqds) and only have one extra Rafale sqd coming before then.

IAF strength will than go down from 33 Squadrons now to around 25 squadrons. If you discount the ancient Jaguars, than that goes down to just 19 squadrons. Basically the same size as the PAF!!!!!

 

[The Maverick]

This list is full of inaccuracies. For example it lists PAF as operation AH-1 and Bell 412, it also has PAF down as 2 Falcons when it is 3.

Maybe that is why your posts are so innacurate too (in addition to your usual lies).

Real number of Mirages in PAF service is closer to 90, number of F-7PGs (F-7s almost all retired) is around 60.

in 2021 you can expect at least one more Mirage sqd to be retired too, so PAF will end up with approx

3 Mirage sqds (mostly ROSE upgrades)
3 F-7PG sqds (manufactured in 90s and with Grifo radar)
5 F-16 sqds
9 JF-17 sqds

Then take into account every passing year will see 1-2 sqds be replaced by JF-17s, it puts PAF in a much better position vis a vis IAF

7 MIG-21 sqds
6 Jaguar sqds

All the above aircraft at least 40-50 years old. Until first operational MK1a squadron (2024 optimistically), you need to retire at least half the above (if not all the MIG-21 sqds) and only have one extra Rafale sqd coming before then.

IAF strength will than go down from 33 Squadrons now to around 25 squadrons. If you discount the ancient Jaguars, than that goes down to just 19 squadrons. Basically the same size as the PAF!!!!!

14 sqds of Su30mki = 272 now
2 sqds of rafale by 2022 = 8 now or 36 by 2022
2 sqds Tejas by 2023 = 22 now or 40 by 2023
3 sqds Mig29upg = 63 now
3 sqds of Mirage2000 = 45 now

Most likely 1 more sqds Mig29upg 21 planes

25 Squarons = YOUR MATHS IS VERY VERY POOR

ASSUME THE MIG21 are scraped completed & you discount the 6 jaguar strike sqds

versis

PAKISTAN

1 sqds of f16 block 52 = 18 planes
3 3 sqds of f16 mlu = 55 planes
7 sqds of JF17 now OR 10 sdqs by 2025 after 50 block 3 delivered = 170 planes
thats 11 sqds only

REST obselete
3 sqds of mirage = 50 each
3 sqds of f7 pg = 50 each

AT BEST cant see PAF getting anything else not in this financial mess

14 sqds of Su30mki = 272 now
2 sqds of rafale by 2022 = 8 now or 36 by 2022
2 sqds Tejas by 2023 = 22 now or 40 by 2023
3 sqds Mig29upg = 63 now
3 sqds of Mirage2000 = 45 now

Most likely 1 more sqds Mig29upg 21 planes

25 Squadrons = YOUR MATHS IS VERY VERY POOR

ASSUME THE MIG21 are scraped completed & you discount the 6 jaguar strike sqds

versis

PAKISTAN

1 sqds of f16 block 52 = 18 planes
3 3 sqds of f16 mlu = 55 planes
7 sqds of JF17 now OR 10 sqds by 2025 after 50 block 3 delivered = 170 planes
thats 14 sqds only

REST obselete
3 sqds of mirage = 50 each
3 sqds of f7 pg = 50 each

AT BEST cant see PAF getting anything else not in this financial mess

Pakistan miliary budget $10 billion
Indian militaruy budget $60 billion

Indian Gdp 2.7 trillion
Pak GDP $270 billion dollars

Indian forex $580 billion
Pak forex $15 billion

I mean come on man ............. its ridiculous you cant sustain any arms race NO CHANCE

 

[Yasser76]

14 sqds of Su30mki = 272 now
2 sqds of rafale by 2022 = 8 now or 36 by 2022
2 sqds Tejas by 2023 = 22 now or 40 by 2023
3 sqds Mig29upg = 63 now
3 sqds of Mirage2000 = 45 now

Most likely 1 more sqds Mig29upg 21 planes

25 Squarons = YOUR MATHS IS VERY VERY POOR

ASSUME THE MIG21 are scraped completed & you discount the 6 jaguar strike sqds

versis

PAKISTAN

1 sqds of f16 block 52 = 18 planes
3 3 sqds of f16 mlu = 55 planes
7 sqds of JF17 now OR 10 sdqs by 2025 after 50 block 3 delivered = 170 planes
thats 11 sqds only

REST obselete
3 sqds of mirage = 50 each
3 sqds of f7 pg = 50 each

AT BEST cant see PAF getting anything else not in this financial mess



Pakistan miliary budget $10 billion
Indian militaruy budget $60 billion

Indian Gdp 2.7 trillion
Pak GDP $270 billion dollars

Indian forex $580 billion
Pak forex $15 billion

I mean come on man ............. its ridiculous you cant sustain any arms race NO CHANCE

My maths is accurate, issue here is (as usual) you fudge the numbers, so it's hard to compete with lies.

IAF

You have 12 MKI squadrons as per Scramble, not 14.
You only have 1 full Tejas squadron, 1 "squadron" only has 2 planes. You cannot count it
So my maths is 100% accurate. If India does retire the Jaguars you go down to 19 squadrons.


PAF has

8 JF-17 squadrons (not 7) as per scramble
You missed 1 PAF F-16 ADF squadron (again, I take that for granted with your lies)

So as mentioned

5 F-16 units
8 JF-17 unite
3 Mirages units (modernised for strike)
3 F-7PG units (not cutting edge but can take on a Jaguar!)

As mentioned, a much better position, and JF-17s will continue to pour in.

LCA MK1a (no contract signature)
MIG-29s (no contract signature)
Extra Rafales (no contract signature)


All of the above will take at least 3 years minimum to arrive assuming India even signs a contract

So yes, in 2023 you will be looking at a PAF of

10 JF-17 squadrons
5 F-16 squadrons
3 F-7PG squadrons

V

IAF

2 Rafale sqds
12 MKI sqds
2 Mirage 2000 sqds (only 45 planes so not enough for 3 squadrons)
3 MIG-29 sqds
6 Jaguar Sqds

25 IAF v 19 PAF


In Pakistani terms, we call that a fair fight! Not even taking into account how much of these units will now have to be station towards China.

Vis a vis the PAF, the IAF will be it's smallest ever

 

[The Maverick]

My maths is accurate, issue here is (as usual) you fudge the numbers, so it's hard to compete with lies.

IAF

You have 12 MKI squadrons as per Scramble, not 14.
You only have 1 full Tejas squadron, 1 "squadron" only has 2 planes. You cannot count it
So my maths is 100% accurate. If India does retire the Jaguars you go down to 19 squadrons.


PAF has

8 JF-17 squadrons (not 7) as per scramble
You missed 1 PAF F-16 ADF squadron (again, I take that for granted with your lies)

So as mentioned

5 F-16 units
8 JF-17 unite
3 Mirages units (modernised for strike)
3 F-7PG units (not cutting edge but can take on a Jaguar!)

As mentioned, a much better position, and JF-17s will continue to pour in.

LCA MK1a (no contract signature)
MIG-29s (no contract signature)
Extra Rafales (no contract signature)


All of the above will take at least 3 years minimum to arrive assuming India even signs a contract

So yes, in 2023 you will be looking at a PAF of

10 JF-17 squadrons
5 F-16 squadrons
3 F-7PG squadrons

V

IAF

2 Rafale sqds
12 MKI sqds
2 Mirage 2000 sqds (only 45 planes so not enough for 3 squadrons)
3 MIG-29 sqds
6 Jaguar Sqds

25 IAF v 19 PAF


In Pakistani terms, we call that a fair fight! Not even taking into account how much of these units will now have to be station towards China.

Vis a vis the PAF, the IAF will be it's smallest ever

YOU MISSED THESE BABYS

They will smash decimate your F7 and match your bock 1 & 2 thunders all day even in mark 1 version

2 sqds 40 planes VERY important

YOU MISSED THESE BABYS

They will smash decimate your F7 and match your bock 1 & 2 thunders all day even in mark 1 version

2 sqds 40 planes VERY important

Also we have 272 su30mki in 14 sqdd

not 12 sqds tha only 240 mki fighters WE have far more than this

Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, Rafale, LCA Tejas, Mirage 2000, Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29, MiG-21, SEPECAT Jaguar: The Indian Air Force fighters | India News | Zee News

PLEASE READ AGAIN = 272 FIGHTERS ............... sorry to bust you again

 

[Yasser76]

YOU MISSED THESE BABYS

View attachment 708153

They will smash decimate your F7 and match your bock 1 & 2 thunders all day even in mark 1 version

2 sqds 40 planes VERY important



Also we have 272 su30mki in 14 sqdd

not 12 sqds tha only 240 mki fighters WE have far more than this

Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, Rafale, LCA Tejas, Mirage 2000, Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29, MiG-21, SEPECAT Jaguar: The Indian Air Force fighters | India News | Zee News

PLEASE READ AGAIN = 272 FIGHTERS ............... sorry to bust you again

Yes, I did not count TEJAS as even by IAF' own admission they are not fully combat capable, but lets count them too, it does not radically change the equation.

The MKI squadron numbers are from Scramble, the most accurate flight database on the internet