HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]

[MirageBlue]

He was criticising Russian Engines..... you don't need to be a genius to understand....what engines are your MiG-21s.....MiG-29s and SU-30s are equipped with.....now is that too difficult to understand.

The IAF knows fully well how good or reliable Russian engines were or are. PAF's experience with them is nothing compared to what the IAF has with the RD-33 or other Russian engines.

And this is the fact - they're a generation behind Western engines in design philosophy and there's a reason why the GE-404 was chosen for the LCA and GE-414 for the Tejas Mk2, even with RD-33 being available since 1980s to Indian designers.

Now, since Pakistan and China had no option but to go for RD-93 since F-404 was not available to the Chinese, you're making a virtue out of this engine. fact remains, RD-33 series is not nearly as reliable, has far far lower MTBO and MTBF and also lower overall life. One plus point is it's cheaper, but I know what any pilot would much rather powers his fighter if it were single engine. And it's not RD-33 series engines.

IAF paid the price for less reliable engines on the MiG-23 and MiG-27 engines which had massive thrust but were not reliable enough and the MiG-23MF, BN and MiG-27 had the worst attrition rate in the IAF. They won't make the mistake of powering a single engine fighter with Russian engines ever again. PAF will discover this as those RD-93s start to age and begin failing prematurely.

Now getting back to the Tejas and trolls trying to derail this thread..

Pretty effective color scheme on the Tejas..I couldn't spot it for a bit initially when I saw the pic. Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter taking off from Bangalore's HAL Airport.

Less Visible, the better

 

[MirageBlue]

Apparently Python V is back in the running to replace the R-73E..the earlier flutter issues have been resolved and the Israelis are making a hard push for it..

Here's a Tejas Mk1 taking off with a Python V ..

Meanwhile, in other news...

Royal Malaysian Air Force team to visit Bangalore within the next 2-3 months (depending on travel restrictions) to evaluate the Tejas Mk1 and look at the HAL Assembly line, testing facilities and training facilities for the type.

Now clear that it was the Tejas Mk1A with AESA radar that was offered. Since Malaysia will most likely want to avoid Israeli equipment (as on the Su-30MKM), it'll have to be the Uttam AESA radar that will be offered instead of Elta 2052. Not sure about the Elbit Targo/DASH HMDS though..there is no other Western HMDS integrated with the Tejas..but then again, even Qatar went ahead with the Targo HMDS for it's Rafales, so it's possible Malaysia may relent to it being used.

Astra Mk1, ASRAAM, R-73E will probably be the main air to air weapons offered if Derby and Python V are not options.

link

A Malaysian Air Force team is expected to visit India soon to assess the suitability of the light combat aircraft (LCA), a locally developed system that has recently been ordered in large numbers by the Indian Air Force (IAF), as the force looks to acquire a new line of new fighter jets.

The Malaysian team is likely to visit Bengaluru within two months, depending on travel restrictions, and will be given a full tour of the LCA production facilities, test infrastructure as well as a demonstration of its combat potential, said people aware of the matter.

They said the Indian LCA has emerged as a top contender for the Malaysian Air Force since it is being offered at cheaper rates than the Swedish Saab Gripen and is more modern and capable than the China-Pakistan origin JF 17. India is offering the LCA Mk1A version, with a modern AESA radar, new avionics and the capability to integrate a variety of weapons, for the potential export order and is confident that the aircraft will be an ideal fit for the Malaysian requirement. The initial requirement is for 12 jets, with options for 24 more in the future, said the people.

Besides full support in training both ground and air personnel, India has offered to create a full maintenance, repair and overhaul facility for the LCA fleet in Malaysia to ensure a high rate of availability. India has been in talks with Malaysia on the potential order for more than three years now. In 2019, India had dispatched two of its LCA fighters for the LIMA show at Langkawi as part of its efforts to pitch the jets for the export order. India and Malaysia have also been engaging in multi-level joint exercises and training programmes as part of plans to upgrade defence cooperation.

The Indian aircraft is priced at just over $42 million per unit, a price made possible given economies of scale after the IAF placed an order for 83 fighter jets. This will make it the most lucrative aircraft on offer to Malaysia in the global scenario, said the people. Besides the Gripen and the JF 17, the South Korean T 50 is also a contender for the contract. Though Pakistan has also been pitching hard for its JF 17 fighter, its Chinese origins are likely to be an important consideration given that Malaysia has ongoing sea boundary disputes with Beijing.

 

[Windjammer]

Tejas didn't fly on Republic Day flypast because ever since a Mirage-2000 crashed quite close to people during acrobatics in the late 1980s (1988 I believe), single engine fighters are banned from the flypast.

Now, the IAF has twin engine fighters that can fly during such fly pasts..Jaguars, Su-30MKIs, MiG-29s, Rafales..the PAF on the other hand, if it imposed such a restriction, would have almost no fighter to fly since it is almost entirely single engined.

Get it? No jingoism there and no, it doesn't prove the JF-17 is in any way better. Lol

You need to work on your history, Tejas did once or twice participated in the Republic Day Flypast.
And for your big disclosure, let me ask you, be it single or twin engine, do you have the confidence to perform an air display above the parade venue.....hardly.....so it's not a question of being better or worse....it's all about having the confidence and ability.....get it.....so a big Lol to you too.

 

[Windjammer]

The IAF knows fully well how good or reliable Russian engines were or are. PAF's experience with them is nothing compared to what the IAF has with the RD-33 or other Russian engines.

And this is the fact - they're a generation behind Western engines in design philosophy and there's a reason why the GE-404 was chosen for the LCA and GE-414 for the Tejas Mk2, even with RD-33 being available since 1980s to Indian designers.

Now, since Pakistan and China had no option but to go for RD-93 since F-404 was not available to the Chinese, you're making a virtue out of this engine. fact remains, RD-33 series is not nearly as reliable, has far far lower MTBO and MTBF and also lower overall life. One plus point is it's cheaper, but I know what any pilot would much rather powers his fighter if it were single engine. And it's not RD-33 series engines.

IAF paid the price for less reliable engines on the MiG-23 and MiG-27 engines which had massive thrust but were not reliable enough and the MiG-23MF, BN and MiG-27 had the worst attrition rate in the IAF. They won't make the mistake of powering a single engine fighter with Russian engines ever again. PAF will discover this as those RD-93s start to age and begin failing prematurely.

For all your banter, let me make it short and sweet for you.....you lot wouldn't have been so critical of the Russian engine had JF-17 wasn't equipped with it....and the icing on the cake is, there are well over 100 JF-17s operational with PAF alone and during their 13 years of service, only Three examples have been lost and none due to any mechanical issues....so it's more to do with Indian maintenance quality rather than anything to do with Russian engines. Lol.

 

[Ali_Baba]

The IAF knows fully well how good or reliable Russian engines were or are. PAF's experience with them is nothing compared to what the IAF has with the RD-33 or other Russian engines.

And this is the fact - they're a generation behind Western engines in design philosophy and there's a reason why the GE-404 was chosen for the LCA and GE-414 for the Tejas Mk2, even with RD-33 being available since 1980s to Indian designers.

Now, since Pakistan and China had no option but to go for RD-93 since F-404 was not available to the Chinese, you're making a virtue out of this engine. fact remains, RD-33 series is not nearly as reliable, has far far lower MTBO and MTBF and also lower overall life. One plus point is it's cheaper, but I know what any pilot would much rather powers his fighter if it were single engine. And it's not RD-33 series engines.

IAF paid the price for less reliable engines on the MiG-23 and MiG-27 engines which had massive thrust but were not reliable enough and the MiG-23MF, BN and MiG-27 had the worst attrition rate in the IAF. They won't make the mistake of powering a single engine fighter with Russian engines ever again. PAF will discover this as those RD-93s start to age and begin failing prematurely.

PAF has operated and maintained Chinese engines on the F6s, Mig-15s, FT5s, A5s and F7s which were at least 1, if not 2 generations behind Russian engines in their design yet, did PAF did it with far fewer incidents and loss of planes and life than IAF ever did with its Russian engines. The issue is not Russian engines.

Engines, like all engineered products operate within very specific tolerances and maintenance schedules and you have know and understand that, and operate them within their specifications and when you do, they operate within their expected behaviour. This expected behaviour includes degradation in performance over time and lifespan of the units. PAF knows how to do this, IAF does not.

A5s had to be rebuilt every 200 odd hours, yet they maintained full operational capability until the day they were retired, and that due to them becoming obsolete, not because they ran our airframes because they kept crashing, etc.

 

[VkdIndian]

do you have the confidence to perform an air display above the parade venue.....hardly

Really? What do the aircraft do that do the fly past over the Rajpath?

Not long back one F-16 was lost while doing a fly past practice in Pakistan. A tragic loss of life resulted from that. Accidents do happen and are not only about confidence and ability.

If talking of confidence and ability please read up about Gaganshakti exercise and Air Force day fly past by the IAF.

Don’t talk of confidence and ability here.
Just accept that you are just a troll and nothing more.

 

[Windjammer]

Really? What do the aircraft do that do the fly past over the Rajpath?

Not long back one F-16 was lost while doing a fly past practice in Pakistan. A tragic loss of life resulted from that. Accidents do happen and are not only about confidence and ability.

If talking of confidence and ability please read up about Gaganshakti exercise and Air Force day fly past by the IAF.

Don’t talk of confidence and ability here.
Just accept that you are just a troll and nothing more.

Give it a rest genius as you don't even know what you are talking about.
You don't even know the difference between an air display and a simple straight fly past yet judging others.
Exercises and firepower displays take place all the time....over barren designated areas....not over your parade venues. It takes confidence and ability to perform air displays over your capital.
And yea we lost an F-16 during practice over Islamabad and you lost Two Hawks practicing over country side.
Did PAF stopped it's displays after the F-16 crash....that's what's called confidence. Do you have the ability to comprehend the difference.

 

[VkdIndian]

And yea we lost an F-16 during practice over Islamabad and you lost Two Hawks practicing over country side.
Did PAF stopped it's displays after the F-16 crash....that's what's called confidence. Do you have the ability to comprehend the difference.

You really are a genius. When you loose an aircraft you sit down and analyse all the aspects. Safety is a big factor while doing these kind of things

Exercises and firepower displays take place all the time....over barren designated areas....not over your parade venues.

Aerial display on Air Force day is not over a parade venue? It consists of flypast as well as aerobatics by multiple aircraft as well as aerobatic display teams.
Did you see the combined aerial display by Helicopter display team and Fixed wing display team during Aero India? I guess not. You do look like a smart guy to me.

It takes confidence and ability to perform air displays over your capital.

Was the F-16 crash due to lack of confidence? Was it due to lack of capability? Nope. The pilot who lost his life was the commanding officer of a front line PAF squadron. He knew exactly what he was doing and was highly qualified for the task. It was a tragic loss of life for optics.

Point is - Accidents can happen anytime. Smart people work out methods to mitigate them. You are so gung-ho about PAF not stopping displays. Are they sure that a similar mishap wouldn’t happen again?

Single engine aircraft flying very low over congested areas with bird activity do pose a serious risk to life and property. It is an important factor while analysing all the aspects related to an aerial display.
Bottom line- It is not about confidence and capability only.
You can’t stop single engine aircraft displays because you don’t have any twin engine fighters. It’s not about confidence. It’s about MAJBOORI in your case.

I hope you comprehend it. Unless your OVERconfidence makes you think that you know it all.

 

[Windjammer]

You really are a genius. When you loose an aircraft you sit down and analyse all the aspects. Safety is a big factor while doing these kind of things

I'm sure both the PAF and IAF don't need any advise from any key board warriors in this regards.

Aerial display on Air Force day is not over a parade venue? It consists of flypast as well as aerobatics by multiple aircraft as well as aerobatic display teams.
Did you see the combined aerial display by Helicopter display team and Fixed wing display team during Aero India? I guess not. You do look like a smart guy to me.

So now you have shifted your focus from Rajpath to Aero India with a bridge gap on Gangashakti.
Incredible....however my original argument was air display over the parade venue aka 23 March compared to 26 January....

Was the F-16 crash due to lack of confidence? Was it due to lack of capability? Nope. The pilot who lost his life was the commanding officer of a front line PAF squadron. He knew exactly what he was doing and was highly qualified for the task. It was a tragic loss of life for optics.
Point is that - Accidents can happen anytime. Smart people work out methods to mitigate them. You are so gung-ho about PAF not stopping displays. Are they sure that a similar mishap wouldn’t happen again?

Dude, the F-16 was the only aircraft lost during this routine, you have lost or lose more aircraft during take offs and landings, recall the crash of your Sitara IJT during Aero India or loss of Sarang team member while practicing for Aero India.....have any of the above practices stopped. The difference is after the Mirage-2000 crash, the IAF lost nerve while PAF maintained it's course.

Single engine aircraft flying very low over congested areas with bird activity do pose a serious risk to life and property. It is an important factor while analysing all the aspects related to an aerial display.
Bottom line- It is not about confidence and capability only.
You can’t stop single engine aircraft displays because you don’t have any twin engine fighters. It’s not about confidence. It’s about MAJBOORI in your case.

I hope you comprehend it. Unless your OVERconfidence makes you think that you know all.

As for so called Majboori.....there's no thing as such as PAF could simply do a straight flypast like IAF does.
And as for the question of single engine V twin engine.... I'm sure you are only too well aware that you have constantly lost more of your twin engine jets compared to PAF single engine aircraft.
Let me give you an example, PAF started inducting single engine F-16s from 1982.....for almost a decade it was geared into action against Soviet/Afghan aircraft scoring several kills.....also in later years, it's been heavily involved in the WOT.....meaning a lot more extra flying putting stress on both airframe and engine....yet after almost 40 years in service, PAF lost 10 examples.
The IAF started inducting twin engine SU-30 from 2000.....and in some 20 years of service, it had lost 12 aircraft without once firing in anger. ....so it's not about knowing all but just simple maths and having some comprehension of the subject.

 

[MirageBlue]

You need to work on your history, Tejas did once or twice participated in the Republic Day Flypast.
And for your big disclosure, let me ask you, be it single or twin engine, do you have the confidence to perform an air display above the parade venue.....hardly.....so it's not a question of being better or worse....it's all about having the confidence and ability.....get it.....so a big Lol to you too.

did it? Ok, so then do some research and let me know which year.

Even Mirage-2000s and MiG-21s were not allowed to participate in fly-pasts since a bird hit or engine flameout on a single engine type means a certain crash. But since you're not into facts but more into "mine is better than yours" type arguments, all this will hardly matter to you.

 

[Windjammer]

did it? Ok, so then do some research and let me know which year.

Even Mirage-2000s and MiG-21s were not allowed to participate in fly-pasts since a bird hit or engine flameout on a single engine type means a certain crash. But since you're not into facts but more into "mine is better than yours" type arguments, all this will hardly matter to you.

If you need help even in such simple point then i suggest you change your area of interest.
Tejas participating in your Republic Day flypast didn't exactly happen before your time. It took place in 2017.
Now if you are Green with envy, you can always change your user name to Mirage Green.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

~4 ton payload

4 x 450kg bomb
2 x Archer CCM
2 x 1200 lt. Drop tank
1 x Lightening pod

Tejas has already demonstrated > 4ton payload

That's a pretty impressive loadout.

 

[VkdIndian]

I'm sure both the PAF and IAF don't need any advise from any key board warriors in this regards.

You started advising. Don’t do that in future.

the IAF lost nerve while PAF maintained it's course.

For lay men it is nerve. For a professional Air Force it is cost benefit analysis to arrive at a decision to put up only dual engine aircraft. One aberration was flypast by Tejas few years back as a one off case. Again a cost vs benefit analysis for that decision.

And as for the question of single engine V twin engine.... I'm sure you are only too well aware that you have constantly lost more of your twin engine jets compared to PAF single engine aircraft.
Let me give you an example, PAF started inducting single engine F-16s from 1982.....for almost a decade it was geared into action against Soviet/Afghan aircraft scoring several kills.....also in later years, it's been heavily involved in the WOT.....meaning a lot more extra flying putting stress on both airframe and engine....yet after almost 40 years in service, PAF lost 10 examples.

There are enough threads on PDF to discuss these losses threadbare. The aspects related to rate of utilisation, number of aircraft and roles trained for are few key factors that can bring it out clearly. Any professional would talk about rate not numbers. You are off the mark again on this.

so it's not about knowing all but just simple maths and having some comprehension of the subject.

Absolutely right you are. Please comprehend as well as understand the entire subject. Unless trolling is your aim.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

the IAF lost nerve while PAF maintained it's course

You don’t have any twin engine aircrafts so it is your majboori to use single engine aircrafts in fly pasts, we use twin engined aircrafts for flypasts to maintain safety, not long back Indian Army showcased swarm drones in which explosions were controlled (and were even mentioned by the narrator on loudspeaker) to ensure safety of the audience, PDF posters started their usual trolling of fake showcase, fake explosions, fake swarming. For safety reasons we don’t use single engine aircraft, if we had lost our nerve then why do we even showcase fighters in flypasts even if they are twin engined. You cannot stop single engine aircraft use if an accident like the M200 happens else your flypast will never happen, so its better be a nice dude who understands things.

 

[HostileInsurgent]