HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]

[The Maverick]

I know I know, the plane that is on the drawing board and not flown yet is better than our planes in squadron service.

You are comparing LCA that you will have soon with what PAF has now. Do you see the flaw in your logic here?

I am.answering the specific questions.
tejas mark 1 is in service with no 45 and no18 sqds 20 planes,and 2 planes respectively.
yes the mark1 is superior to thunder block 1 and 2 and f7 and mirage in paf.
If maybe inferior to your block 52 thank God you have 18 planes,
55 your mlu f16 mat be superior in terms of amraams and twr but tejas has lower rcs and better hmd

 

[Yasser76]

I am.answering the specific questions.
tejas mark 1 is in service with no 45 and no18 sqds 20 planes,and 2 planes respectively.
yes the mark1 is superior to thunder block 1 and 2 and f7 and mirage in paf.
If maybe inferior to your block 52 thank God you have 18 planes,
55 your mlu f16 mat be superior in terms of amraams and twr but tejas has lower rcs and better hmd

Read the below, lay off the whiskey and go to bed

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[Raj-Hindustani]

Read the below, lay off the whiskey and go to bed

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Do you realized that you are posting 5 years old article.

if it was true then IAF was inducted the HAL Tejas as same as PAK was inducted the Jf 17 block1.

But it is not a case with IAF.

 

[VkdIndian]

India has an organisation called CAG to look at all aspects of governance and does its audit from all possible angles. They have been ruthless at times and have put governments in dock. They don’t sugar coat anything and audit without looking at certain aspects that may pass the scrutiny if looked at from actual reality aspects.

The CAG has commented that LAC was short on the parameters set by the IAF. Was there any other Indian solution available at that time? Should India have killed the program because it did not meet the QRs set by the IAF? These are practical aspects that CAG has not looked into. These aspects have to be kept in perspective by the planners, which was done and LCA program kept alive. How else would one master the complex science and art of making war planes?
Create a perfect machine in first attempt? Is there any country in the world that has created a perfect platform in its first attempt? One can ask these questions from CAG. But CAG is doing what it is supposed to do. Audit without any bias.

JF-17 block I had multiple issues. No trainer, No capability to carry a lot of weapons, night capability and many more. Pakistan didn’t have many options and decided to induct an aircraft in large numbers even with those shortcomings. But Pakistan doesn’t have a CAG to point these out.

IAF on the contrary was very sure not to induct an underdevelopment aircraft.

Having said that, it would be also right to accept that everything was not right with the LCA program. Biggest issue was HAL not doing adequate work to improve it at the desired rate. This fault was due to lack of cohesion between the IAF, Defence ministry and few other organisations.

But, that has changed in the last few years. Today, LCA has come a long way and is a much more cohesive platform. Will the CAG be happy with it? I don’t think so. There still could be certain issues that don’t meet the QRs set by the IAF. CAG will still point those out to utter joy of watchers on PDF.

IAF has also realised and toned down its stance and its leadership today is more forthcoming with inducting a not so perfect platform. Will it be a perfect platform? May not be. There could be certain aspects that would need refinement. Today, all the organisations involved are ready to play their part to address those rather than be a hurdle.

The ordered version of 83 LCAs is a well rounded platform. The currently operated version of LCA in two squadrons has given quite a lot of operational experience to the IAF. A lot of teething issues have been ironed out.

At this juncture adversaries are out in full force, trolling and claiming failure of LCA program.
But it has not failed. Delayed definitely and that too by quite a margin. But not failed.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

lol indian air chief whose moustaches look like a B-2 bomber says teja is better then thunders........if tejas is better then JF-17s then why is IAF buying these hugely expensive foreign jets like Rafales? PAF's CAS has clearly said that JF-17 Block-3 is ahead of Rafale F3R in radars and weapons and then added that this will be the aircraft that will fight the Rafales. So if Teja is better then JF-17 then why are you then buying Rafale which clearly is inferior to Block-3 and as a result to tejas as well? THAT IS IF HE IS RIGHT! Sach btao apne logo ko jhoot na btao, Rafale F3R iss lea buy kia q k Ambanio or unnki reliance walo ko khush karna tha! haha Another goof up by this potato head air chief of their's!

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

lol indian air chief whose moustaches look like a B-2 bomber says teja is better then thunders........if tejas is better then JF-17s then why is IAF buying these hugely expensive foreign jets like Rafales? PAF's CAS has clearly said that JF-17 Block-3 is ahead of Rafale F3R in radars and weapons and then added that this will be the aircraft that will fight the Rafales. So if Teja is better then JF-17 then why are you then buying Rafale which clearly is inferior to Block-3 and as a result to tejas as well? THAT IS IF HE IS RIGHT! Sach btao apne logo ko jhoot na btao, Rafale F3R iss lea buy kia q k Ambanio or unnki reliance walo ko khush karna tha! haha Another goof up by this potato head air chief of their's!

You need ask to your CAS, why are they looking J10c/better aircraft if Jf 17 is best.

HAL tejas Mk1 and JF 17 block 2 is more and less equal aircrafts. And, HAL Tejas MK1a and Jf 17 block 3 will be equally the same.

It is all about requirements, IAF has to deal with PLAAF as they have much better aircrafts then Jf17, we need more better aircrafts.

And, Even PAF is looking more capable fighter then Jf 17 because IAF is inducting Rafale and more.

It is a chain system in south Asia.....

 

[MirageBlue]

This is just fly away cost of 81 fighters or does it include ground support equipment

It is the total contract cost.

It'll include the Airframe + engine + radar + EW suite + avionics + HMDS, etc. + setting up infrastructure at IAF Base Repair Depots so the IAF can repair and maintain the fleet without HAL support.

Will also include spare engines, spare radars, spare HMDS, ground equipment, testing equipment, simulators, maintenance equipment, warranties and most likely a PBL (Performance Based Logistics) type agreement for guaranteed availability of some percentage (e.g. 70% of the fleet available at all times).

It is more costly then MKI

270 MKI for 8b$
81 tejas for 6.5b

even adjusted for inflation the cost is still much higher almost twice

Even now MKI comes cheaper then tejas

Don't fall for such simplistic analysis.

This kind of a contract is complex to say the least. the Su-30MKI contracts included a lot of other costs separately- for setting up assembly lines, license fees, ToT, setting up facilities to build the engine, radar, etc. and test them. If those costs were accounted for as part of the cost of a single Su-30MKI, then it's cost would also go up by 30-40%.

The fly-away cost for a Tejas will be ~ USD 50 million. The costliest items are the imported engine and radar and EW suite. But when you add all the other items that are included in such a contract, the costs go up. And buying a fighter is not like buying a car. Repair/maintenance facilities need to be set up and spares for mission critical equipment have to be stocked up. It'll also include services contracts for HAL to ensure that the fleet availability is above 70% at least.

 

[Yasser76]

Do you realized that you are posting 5 years old article.

if it was true then IAF was inducted the HAL Tejas as same as PAK was inducted the Jf 17 block1.

But it is not a case with IAF.

Problems are still there, that is the exact reason IAF is not inducting MK1 and waiting for MK1A. The plane got 23 PERMANENT WAIVERS. Do you know what that means? It's means admitting it does not meet specs and getting it in use anyway. MK1A may be an improvment. May.

You need ask to your CAS, why are they looking J10c/better aircraft if Jf 17 is best.

HAL tejas Mk1 and JF 17 block 2 is more and less equal aircrafts. And, HAL Tejas MK1a and Jf 17 block 3 will be equally the same.

It is all about requirements, IAF has to deal with PLAAF as they have much better aircrafts then Jf17, we need more better aircrafts.

And, Even PAF is looking more capable fighter then Jf 17 because IAF is inducting Rafale and more.

It is a chain system in south Asia.....

Even so, the delays to MK1A are such that in a few years JF-17 Block III Production will stop, other JF-17s will be upgraded and India will still be producing MK1As, the longer the delay to MK1A, the greater the chance LCA will not be competing with JF-17, but indeed it's follow on. AZM.

J-10 is seen as potential early F-16 replacement, it's in a different class to JF-17 in terms of light/medium role. Any idiot with any knowledge of aviation would know that.

 

[Novice09]

no it can't
but thank God it will never face this sort of,technology

tejas,mark1a is superior to everything in your air Force and a match for your block 52 f16cwhich we rate as your best fighter perhaps,even better than your block 3 thunders

even our mark1 tejas with the mechanical elta radar on paper beats your current block 1 and 2 thunders and your entire 200 fleet of mirages and f7.

I won't even talk about the Rafale effect as,a Force multipler


of course,it's manufactured in indian work shops there is not a foreign adviser anywhere. this is not a joint project with chengdu or dassult or Lockheed

but things does not work like this in conflicts... it is always the synergy between various assets... I don't like such comparisons... Food for thought... Compare MiG-21 with F-16... ON PAPER...

Tejas will achieve what Marut failed to... i.e., an ecosystem for aerospace industry... Public Private Partnership Model...

 

[MirageBlue]

Pakistanis can mock all you want, it won't change anything. The fact is this-

The Tejas Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2 will be the backbone of the IAF's single engine fighter fleet at the end of this decade with current orders for 126 fighters and Tejas Mk2 orders to exceed that number. And the IAF is fully backing the program, having seen what the platform's capabilities are. It is also the most affordable solution and most of the money spent is being spent within the country.

Petty internet trolling will do nothing to alter the facts on the ground. This program will simply grow from strength to strength.

 

[Yasser76]

Pakistanis can mock all you want, it won't change anything. The fact is this-

The Tejas Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2 will be the backbone of the IAF's single engine fighter fleet at the end of this decade with current orders for 126 fighters and Tejas Mk2 orders to exceed that number. And the IAF is fully backing the program, having seen what the platform's capabilities are. It is also the most affordable solution and most of the money spent is being spent within the country.

Petty internet trolling will do nothing to alter the facts on the ground. This program will simply grow from strength to strength.

You do not see the irony of your own post do you? You are trying to compare a fighter that has not even flown yet and already talking of it's capabilities. The rest of the world usually waits till it flies and is proven until mouthing off, Indians do the opposite.

So maybe save the bravado posts for when/if MK1A/MK2 flies!?

 

[ziaulislam]

so give me one fighter jet radar i said FIGHTER JET radar range whos radar range is more than 400 km with limited power, i am not ttalking about awacs

Even awecs will have it tough to go beyond 400-450km due to

It is the total contract cost.

It'll include the Airframe + engine + radar + EW suite + avionics + HMDS, etc. + setting up infrastructure at IAF Base Repair Depots so the IAF can repair and maintain the fleet without HAL support.

Will also include spare engines, spare radars, spare HMDS, ground equipment, testing equipment, simulators, maintenance equipment, warranties and most likely a PBL (Performance Based Logistics) type agreement for guaranteed availability of some percentage (e.g. 70% of the fleet available at all times).


Don't fall for such simplistic analysis.

This kind of a contract is complex to say the least. the Su-30MKI contracts included a lot of other costs separately- for setting up assembly lines, license fees, ToT, setting up facilities to build the engine, radar, etc. and test them. If those costs were accounted for as part of the cost of a single Su-30MKI, then it's cost would also go up by 30-40%.

The fly-away cost for a Tejas will be ~ USD 50 million. The costliest items are the imported engine and radar and EW suite. But when you add all the other items that are included in such a contract, the costs go up. And buying a fighter is not like buying a car. Repair/maintenance facilities need to be set up and spares for mission critical equipment have to be stocked up. It'll also include services contracts for HAL to ensure that the fleet availability is above 70% at least.

50m still very exepensive for fighter which received several waivers
Also every fighter has those cost built in
You dont get fighter without an engine
HAL is taking a too big cut here

IAF should have skipped mk1a and only went for mk2 (as they originally planned)
Or liscene produce gripen NG

 

[The Maverick]

[QUOTE="ziaulislam, post: 12911874,

IAF should have skipped mk1a and only went for mk2 (as they originally planned)
Or liscene produce gripen NG
[/QUOTE]


the mark 1a is perfect replacement for 6 operational mig21 bison. we are jumping 2 decades,in technology and capability.

the mark 2 is a medium weight fighter to replace mig29 and mieage2000 I suggest you watch aero India and check out the specs.
mark 2 will equal to gripen ng and block 70 f16 .

but it will take decade from hear .
where as block 70 could be here in 36 months

but no issue we have Rafale and will order more

the plan make a sense albeit delayed by a 5 to 10 years

 

[The Maverick]

"Yasser76, post: 12911181, member: 183830"]
Read the below, lay off the whiskey and go to bed

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deep down you know very well.the best way to military superiority long term.is via financial power is GDP and forex and or weapons indengious capability.

we smash pakistan financially you can't touch us by 10 to 1 gdp or 5 to 1 defense budget .

our indengious capability is much larger more wide ranging then yours. be it destroyers subs helicopters awacs mbrl artillery we do it all. yes production can e slow but we have only started,getting serious last decade or so..

we will keep throwing money at it because we,can do.

tejas is on paper ahead of your block 1 and 2 chinease fighter.
better flybewire and airframe
better engines,
hmd wider range of weapons integration ie Indian israeli and French and Russian.
it's massive upgrade on legacy bison
we Indians are delighted and even.more so because Rafale and mki and mirage20000 will be working along side it..

 

[Yasser76]

"Yasser76, post: 12911181, member: 183830"]
Read the below, lay off the whiskey and go to bed

Defense World

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www.defenseworld.net

deep down you know very well.the best way to military superiority long term.is via financial power is GDP and forex and or weapons indengious capability.

we smash pakistan financially you can't touch us by 10 to 1 gdp or 5 to 1 defense budget .

our indengious capability is much larger more wide ranging then yours. be it destroyers subs helicopters awacs mbrl artillery we do it all. yes production can e slow but we have only started,getting serious last decade or so..

we will keep throwing money at it because we,can do.

tejas is on paper ahead of your block 1 and 2 chinease fighter.
better flybewire and airframe
better engines,
hmd wider range of weapons integration ie Indian israeli and French and Russian.
it's massive upgrade on legacy bison
we Indians are delighted and even.more so because Rafale and mki and mirage20000 will be working along side it..

Please, enough of the BS. If just money could buy military power than Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Germany and Canada would be on par with say UK, which they are certainly not. It takes more than money. India still had much bigger economy than Pak on Feb 27th.

As you say Tejas is "on paper" ahead of Block 1 and Block 2. Guess what, AZM "on paper" is better then anything in IAF at the moment. It's of little relevance....