HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]

[#hydra#]

IAF chief blames UPA for procurement delays, spells out schedule for boosting fighter squadrons

Addressing his first press conference since India contracted for 36 Rafale fighters from France, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, outlined on Tuesday his vision for how crippling deficiencies in fighter aircraft would be tackled.

Raha blamed the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government’s preoccupation with procedure for the IAF’s current aircraft shortfalls — it has just 34 fighter squadrons instead of the sanctioned 45. He said: “I think all our procurements have been more or less process driven and not outcome driven. [Now] there is a change of perception and now most of the procurement processes and policies are being amended so that it is (sic) outcome driven.”

“We have planned up to 2027 and if the inductions had been timely, the IAF’s capabilities, certainly in terms of combat aircraft — as of now it is good, but it would have been better.”

The IAF has not yet closed the Rafale chapter. With Dassault, the Rafale’s French vendor, believed to be readying a proposal for building 80 more Rafales in India, Raha stated: “We would like to have more, but the decision will be taken in the near future based on capabilities and the desirability of having [more] fighter aircraft of this class.”

Second fighter line

The air chief indicated that a new Make in India fighter production line could come up soon, based on “unsolicited offers” from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab for building their fighters in India --- respectively the F-16 Block 70, F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Gripen E. These offers are conditional on the IAF buying and operating the fighter in question.

“This is very much on the table and I’m sure whoever gives the best deal [will win]. All the aircraft are very capable, so it will depend upon who provides the best transfer of technology; and, of course, the price tag. It’s on the table; nothing is decided as yet.”

Raha said: “This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology. Also, India will become a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region.

Jaguar

The IAF chief also flashed a green light on modifying and upgrading the Jaguar fleet, the IAF’s key fighter for deep penetration strikes. As Business Standard has reported (March 27, 2015 “Facing dwindling numbers, Jaguar upgrade crucial for Indian Air Force”) at least four of the six Jaguar squadrons (120 aircraft) will be rejuvenated with new Honeywell F-125N engines for $3 billion, a modern Airborne Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, indigenous DARIN-3 avionics and will carry the smart CBU-105 “sensor fuzed weapons” that India bought from Textron, USA.

Raha said: “To exploit the Jaguar for the next 15-20 years, we are upgrading the aircraft with better weapons. I think there has been slow progress in the past but I’m sure this is going to pick up steam, and very soon we’ll see progress.”

Raha also said upgrade programmes were progressing well in the three Mirage 2000 squadrons (cost: Rs 12,100 crore); and three MiG-29 squadrons (cost Rs 6,400 crore).

Indo-Russian FGFA

The tortuous negotiations holding up the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are resolved, Raha confirmed. The two sides are believed to have agreed on a $4 billion “R&D Contract” that could see HAL and Sukhoi co-develop and build up to 250 FGFAs for the IAF.

Raha said: “[Earlier, the IAF] found gaps in information on transfer of technology; how they (Sukhoi) have achieved these 5th generation technologies, and in visibility of the total cost. So these issues were flagged… and now a lot of clarity has come on these issues. Hopefully things will be decided sooner rather than later on the FGFA.”

Tejas LCA

For the first time, the IAF chief spelt out a detailed commitment and roadmap for inducting 120 Tejas fighters into the IAF in a decade.

Raha said the first squadron, which will have 20 Tejas with “initial operational certification” (IOC), will have four fighter this year, with HAL boosting production to eight fighters annually from next year. “So in another year and a half’s time, we will have a full squadron of LCA’s – the IOC version”, he said.

Raha revealed the long-delayed “final operational certification” (FOC) of the Tejas was imminent. “I’m sure in another five-six months FOC would be cleared and production will start as soon as [HAL] finishes producing the IOC version. So we expect that the FOC version [of the Tejas] will be operationalized in an IAF fighter squadron in another three years time.”

Meanwhile, the Tejas Mark 1A, with improved radar, weapons, electronic warfare capability and maintainability would fly in three-four years.

“We should be able to start production of this aircraft by 2020-21; and in another five-seven years [i.e. by 2025-28], we’ll have 80 Tejas Mark 1A fighters”, said Raha.


http://www.business-standard.com/ar...oosting-fighter-squadrons-116100400819_1.html

it will take atleast 2026 to induct all 120 LCAs. Mk2 will remain a fantasy for us.
@PARIKRAMA

250 fgfa,aka second best 250 fighters after f22.

 

[Agent_47]

250 fgfa,aka second best 250 fighters after f22.

63 will be the committed number, extra orders will only come when MKI starts retiring .

 

[My-Analogous]

Main reason India got sanctions after nuclear tests in 1998 by us and west so tejas get delayed . but pak got tech by China with made not any sanctions ..

We also face same problem with avionics and engine and that is not an excuse

The maiden flight was in 2001. The start of the design phase, IIRC, was in 1993. Quite a worthy feat for a country with no aviation industry or experience or expertise at the time. (In development; HAL was a manufacturing powerhouse in Asia even then.)

"Be proud about" is a difficult concept. That depends on the person, what she chooses to be proud about. If you are somebody who cannot be proud of anything less than the best, then you cannot be proud of anything other than designing and operationalizing an F-22 Raptor, in this day and age. Anything else is sub-par.



Oh but we have manufactured 1000s of fighter aircrafts, for the 100 that you have. (Actually it's less than a 100.) LCA is something India is trying to develop by herself, and that's a lot different from manufacturing something that was designed, prototyped and flight tested elsewhere. It's a whole different level of complexity.

HAL has manufactured much more complex jets than JF-17; was doing so for decades. But designing in-house, flight testing for years to worm out every niggle, and putting forth a finished product that can be competitive in contemporary times, is a whole different endeavor. You will understand that the day you try to design your own aircraft - until then, you can take pride in Chinese gifts.

There is a big difference between manufacturing and assembling. Proof your claim that India manufactured 1000+ plane. This is very serious forum and we closely follows each and every development of LCA past couple of years and we know India aeronautics capacity. Please give us your reference of claim about India 1000+ manufacturing fighter planes .

Anywhich ways, now that all the testing and evaluations are done, and the first squadron is complete with then inclusion of SP-4, it is only a matter of time before we can churn out in numbers..

For your knowledge. Please note that first sqd. will be ready in year 2018 as per latest HAL commitment. Best of luck and hope this time they are rightly given a correct date

 

[hell9214]

US sanctions blocked avionics for Pakistan


It is not an old airframe design. Just like that of the LCA isn't.


Still, the nature of the project is different. And so is the starting point. And the project partners. The simpler, clearer the project (or the more complex and fuzzier) the easier (difficult) the project is to manage.

Does everything here have to be compared India/Pakistan and made into a competition. Can we just look at the merits per se?

Baby read some info don't be in dreams wake up LCA has one of the most advance airframe which has maximum amount of composite materials... nd where Jf 17 is based on old design with metal body don't compare both LCA design was way ahead of jf 17...

 

[ashok321]

 

[ayesha.a]

There is a big difference between manufacturing and assembling. Proof your claim that India manufactured 1000+ plane. This is very serious forum and we closely follows each and every development of LCA past couple of years and we know India aeronautics capacity. Please give us your reference of claim about India 1000+ manufacturing fighter planes .

Precisely my point. And further, there is a bigger difference between manufacturing and actually designing and developing. Pakistan is assembling or manufacturing Chinese designed JF-17, just like presently India is manufacturing MKIs, and in the past manufactured Jaguars, Migs etc.

If you want numbers, simply use google or Wiki - and if you can't, then tell me and I shall do it for you. Check out the number of MKIs, Jaguars, Gnats, mig-21s etc that HAL has manufactured. Also add the in house developed Maruts, Ajeets etc. The final tally is in far in excess of a 1000, and this is without adding the thousands of rotary wing aircrafts.

 

[Abingdonboy]

250 fgfa,aka second best 250 fighters after f22.

In many ways the FGFA will be far superior to the F-22.

 

[#hydra#]

In many ways the FGFA will be far superior to the F-22.

I fear not,especially in avionics,stealth and bvr engagment... These three thing define which is better air superiority fighter.

Russians developed 34 from su27/30 so is there any chance for getting a strike variant for fgfa,mainly tailor made stealthy charectristics against surface to air radars.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I fear not,especially in avionics,stealth and bvr engagment... These three thing define which is better air superiority fighter.

The Avionics of the F-22 are actually pretty ancient (by modern standards) just because nature of technological development, stealth is a rather abstract concept and it will be impossible to compare as an outsider and the BVR engagement profiles will be shockingly similar IMHO. Many have already theorised that stealth (VLO) v stealth will likely lead to WVR fights more often than not and here the FGFA's far superior kinematic performance will outclass the F-22.

 

[#hydra#]

The Avionics of the F-22 are actually pretty ancient (by modern standards) just because nature of technological development, stealth is a rather abstract concept and it will be impossible to compare as an outsider and the BVR engagement profiles will be shockingly similar IMHO. Many have already theorised that stealth (VLO) v stealth will likely lead to WVR fights more often than not and here the FGFA's far superior kinematic performance will outclass the F-22.

May be u are right,is there any plan for strike variant for fgfa like su34.

 

[mirage]

From 1990 to 2016, it took Indian 26 years from design initiation to first maiden flight.

Is it really something to be proud of?

how bizarre !! try read some news and history about how Bharat made her own cryogenic engine , and the journey thereafter .

 

[Gessler]

I fear not,especially in avionics,stealth and bvr engagment... These three thing define which is better air superiority fighter.

Adding to what @Abingdonboy said...

The F-22's avionics were cutting-edge 10-15 years ago, but not anymore. The PAK-FA will have a GaN-based AESA in the nose, side-looking arrays adding to the FoV, and the L-band AESAs providing a level of early warning against distant VLO targets...and all this is complimented by a 360-degree passive situational awareness package (101KS-X) which includes advanced QWIP-based IRSTs, a bi-spectral MAWS system (the 101KS-U distributed aperture EO sensors are similar to the F-35's EODAS system).

In comparison, the Raptor has a single GaAs-based radar, some MAWS and that's it. Aircraft situational awareness has moved ahead by leaps & bounds from there. And the gap will widen further in the next 10 years. A Rafale with all it's planned upgrades will have, by several magnitudes, better avionics & awareness than a Raptor. And FGFA will be better than Rafale in that department.

++

People have been assuming a lot, comparing F22's frontal-aspect RCS against the 360-degree average of a lot of planes. While the complete stealth treatment for PAK-FA (let alone FGFA) is still not seen by the public. Anyway, no one is disputing the fact that F22 will have a smaller radar signature than PAK-FA, but by what margin? That's the defining question.

Any increase in RCS is easily offset by the fact that the sensory capabilities on the PAK-FA will be far better & more advanced than any Raptor or F-35.

++

The Russians are well into building the next generation of air-to-air weapons (with AESA seekers, and Ramjet propulsion) for the PAK-FA. The conventional AIM-120C-7/D AMRAAM and Sidewinders will be no match. Only the AESA-equipped Meteor that UK and Japan are working on co-developing can stand up.

 

[#hydra#]

Adding to what @Abingdonboy said...

The F-22's avionics were cutting-edge 10-15 years ago, but not anymore. The PAK-FA will have a GaN-based AESA in the nose, side-looking arrays adding to the FoV, and the L-band AESAs providing a level of early warning against distant VLO targets...and all this is complimented by a 360-degree passive situational awareness package (101KS-X) which includes advanced QWIP-based IRSTs, a bi-spectral MAWS system (the 101KS-U distributed aperture EO sensors are similar to the F-35's EODAS system).

In comparison, the Raptor has a single GaAs-based radar, some MAWS and that's it. Aircraft situational awareness has moved ahead by leaps & bounds from there. And the gap will widen further in the next 10 years. A Rafale with all it's planned upgrades will have, by several magnitudes, better avionics & awareness than a Raptor. And FGFA will be better than Rafale in that department.

++

People have been assuming a lot, comparing F22's frontal-aspect RCS against the 360-degree average of a lot of planes. While the complete stealth treatment for PAK-FA (let alone FGFA) is still not seen by the public. Anyway, no one is disputing the fact that F22 will have a smaller radar signature than PAK-FA, but by what margin? That's the defining question.

Any increase in RCS is easily offset by the fact that the sensory capabilities on the PAK-FA will be far better & more advanced than any Raptor or F-35.

++

The Russians are well into building the next generation of air-to-air weapons (with AESA seekers, and Ramjet propulsion) for the PAK-FA. The conventional AIM-120C-7/D AMRAAM and Sidewinders will be no match. Only the AESA-equipped Meteor that UK and Japan are working on co-developing can stand up.

1) then why IAF is not happy with is this exceptional design?
2) by your logic regarding age of design,the new f35 must be better than 22.
A) Then y other air forces not happy with 35
B) if f22 is that much irrelevant, y uncle Sam is notbselling to others in same time they ate selling f35

 

[My-Analogous]

Precisely my point. And further, there is a bigger difference between manufacturing and actually designing and developing. Pakistan is assembling or manufacturing Chinese designed JF-17, just like presently India is manufacturing MKIs, and in the past manufactured Jaguars, Migs etc.

If you want numbers, simply use google or Wiki - and if you can't, then tell me and I shall do it for you. Check out the number of MKIs, Jaguars, Gnats, mig-21s etc that HAL has manufactured. Also add the in house developed Maruts, Ajeets etc. The final tally is in far in excess of a 1000, and this is without adding the thousands of rotary wing aircrafts.

What you refer is not manufacturing but assembly and Pakistan is not assembling JF17 but manufacturing JF17 and we imported around 42% part of JF17 from China rest all manufactured in Pakistan with transfer of technology from China and others

 

[ranadd]

What you refer is not manufacturing but assembly and Pakistan is not assembling JF17 but manufacturing JF17 and we imported around 42% part of JF17 from China rest all manufactured in Pakistan with transfer of technology from China and others

What?? Seriously?

Please add sarcasm with a '\s'.