HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]

[ayesha.a]

Google it don't act like the cave girl in your D.P

I really don't need to, since I have a lot more knowledge about the project than you do, judging by your rudimentary attempt at "criticism". But surprise me...do point out the "many" flaws in the landing gear.

When you make assertions, be prepared to elaborate - if you ask the other person to find out, it means that you were making things out of thin air.

By "many", you mean more than three? Do list them out point by point.

And please do mention how many of those (if there is more than one) are unsolvable issues.

Last but not least, Lisa Simpson is not a cave-girl. She belongs to a floating timeline, beginning in 1989. Did you perhaps confuse her with the Flintstones?

 

[Carbonated]

Lisa Simpson

I don't like lizards either

 

[Penguin]

1991 the Fighter China project was launched.
1995 Pakistan and China sign a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint design and development of a new fighter. Mikoyan joins the project to provide "design support", this also involved the secondment of several engineers by CAC. Pakistan to select a Western company by the end of the year to provide and integrate the FC-1's avionics, which was expected to go into production by 1999.
1998 in February, Pakistan and China sign a letter of intent covering airframe development.
1999 In June, the contract to jointly develop and produce the Chengdu FC-1/Super 7 was signed.
2001 The JF-17 design was finalised. Due to sanctions, PAF decides to decouple the airframe from the avionics, enabling design work on the aircraft to continue. As the airframe was developed, any new avionics requirements by the PAF could be more easily integrated into the airframe.
2002, In September, prototype production began; a full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7 was displayed at Airshow China in November. The first batch of Klimov RD-93 turbofan engines to power the prototypes was also delivered in 2002.
2003 The first prototype, PT-01, was rolled out on 31 May and the maiden flight was made in late August.
2004 The maiden flight of the third prototype, PT-03, took place on 9 April [therefor PT-2 first flew between August 003 and April 2004] Following the third prototype, several design improvements were developed and incorporated into further aircraft.
2005 Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) begins manufacturing JF-17 components
2006 PT-04, the fourth prototype and the first to incorporate the design changes, was rolled out in April and made its first flight on 28 April. The sixth prototype, PT-06, made its maiden flight on 10 September [the implication is that PT-05 first flew between April and September]
2007 On 2 March, the first consignment of two small-batch-production (SBP) aircraft arrived in a dismantled state in Pakistan from China. They flew for the first time on 10 March 2007
2008 At Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), production of sub-assemblies commences on 22 January
2009 Final assembly of the JF-17 in Pakistan begins on 30 June. PAC expects to complete production of four to six aircraft this year. They plan to produce twelve aircraft in 2010 and fifteen to sixteen aircraft per year from 2011 on; this could increase to twenty-five aircraft per year.
2013 On 18 December , production of Block 2 JF-17s began at PAC's Kamra facility. Block 2 construction activity is planned to run until 2016
2015 On December 29, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) announced the rollout of 16th Block 2 JF-17 Thunder fighter manufactured in the calendar year 2015, taking total number of manufactured aircraft to more than 66.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Congrats. With mix of western, Israeli system, it is big threat for opponents.

 

[Allen Iverson]

All troll wars aside, we feel this SP-3 is the best thing the Indian Defence PSU could give us as a Dussehra gift..

 

[Penguin]

So, basically, the time from project initation to roll out of first aircraft in both cases (JF-17 and Tejas) is 12 years. The difference is that the LCA technology demonstrator suffered technical problems in flight control systems and structural deficiencies that resulted in the protoypes (TD-1 and TD 2) being grounded (for 6 and 4 years, respectively). So, the difference is in date of first flight. Here one should bare in mind that Pakistan had the advantage of working with experienced CAC, and having a a more conventional (mature) basic design. Nevertheless, JF-17 experienced redesign 2004-2006. So, there too were some issues. Production (of parts) in Pakistan starts only in 2008.

16 years since first flight but still not operation with IAF? 30 plus years old design original intended engine was a failure, even indigenous radar is not ready 60 to 70% imported parts another failure, landing gear developed by India but still have many snags. Auditor general pointed out 87 points against Tejas and it will be the first jet to have MKII version without the success of first version.

Sure, the Chinese co-developed JF-17 is brilliant. Happy now?

It doesn't come with a Russian RD093 engine or, alternatively, a Chinese WS-13? Chinese radar? Chinese FBW system? Chinese helmet mounted sight? Chinese weaponry? It wasn't so that the original intent of Pakistan was to use Western electronics and avionics?

 

[Carbonated]

@Penguin
Sir can I ask something since your flags are not there, from where are you?

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin
Sir can I ask something since your flags are not there, from where are you?

Why, Antarctica of course, that's where we Penguins dwell!

Care to buy some of my merchandise?

 

[ranadd]

16 years since first flight but still not operation with IAF? 30 plus years old design original intended engine was a failure, even indigenous radar is not ready 60 to 70% imported parts another failure, landing gear developed by India but still have many snags. Auditor general pointed out 87 points against Tejas and it will be the first jet to have MKII version without the success of first version.

It is in operation with IAF. Have you read the audit reports from the trillion dollar project called F35?. When you have civilian government with checks and balances that is how it is. Transparency, it is called. When have you heard of such instances from China or Pakistan?

If you can take a second to appreciate the engineering feat (no, its not due to jingoism.) you will know the first version is beyond a success. Tejas as a fighter succeeded. The engine didn't get 100% results. If we go by Chinese standards, even the engine would have been in operation. No, but India had the retarded idea to go for all at the first go itself.

My friend, when someone else does something you haven't done or not even trying to do, try to appreciate it.

 

[newindiandefence]

So, basically, the time from project initation to roll out of first aircraft in both cases (JF-17 and Tejas) is 12 years. The difference is that the LCA technology demonstrator suffered technical problems in flight control systems and structural deficiencies that resulted in the protoypes (TD-1 and TD 2) being grounded (for 6 and 4 years, respectively). So, the difference is in date of first flight. Here one should bare in mind that Pakistan had the advantage of working with experienced CAC, and having a a more conventional (mature) basic design. Nevertheless, JF-17 experienced redesign 2004-2006. So, there too were some issues. Production (of parts) in Pakistan starts only in 2008.


Sure, the Chinese co-developed JF-17 is brilliant. Happy now?

It doesn't come with a Russian RD093 engine or, alternatively, a Chinese WS-13? Chinese radar? Chinese FBW system? Chinese helmet mounted sight? Chinese weaponry? It wasn't so that the original intent of Pakistan was to use Western electronics and avionics?

Main reason India got sanctions after nuclear tests in 1998 by us and west so tejas get delayed . but pak got tech by China with made not any sanctions ..

 

[hell9214]

1991 thter China project was launched.
1995 Pakistan and China sign a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint design and development of a new fighter. Mikoyan joins the project to provide "design support", this also involved the secondment of several engineers by CAC. Pakistan to select a Western company by the end of the year to provide and integrate the FC-1's avionics, which was expected to go into production by 1999.
1998 in February, Pakistan and China sign a letter of intent covering airframe development.
1999 In June, the contract to jointly develop and produce the Chengdu FC-1/Super 7 was signed.
2001 The JF-17 design was finalised. Due to sanctions, PAF decides to decouple the airframe from the avionics, enabling design work on the aircraft to continue. As the airframe was developed, any new avionics requirements by the PAF could be more easily integrated into the airframe.
2002, In September, prototype production began; a full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7 was displayed at Airshow China in November. The first batch of Klimov RD-93 turbofan engines to power the prototypes was also delivered in 2002.
2003 The first prototype, PT-01, was rolled out on 31 May and the maiden flight was made in late August.
2004 The maiden flight of the third prototype, PT-03, took place on 9 April [therefor PT-2 first flew between August 003 and April 2004] Following the third prototype, several design improvements were developed and incorporated into further aircraft.
2005 Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) begins manufacturing JF-17 components
2006 PT-04, the fourth prototype and the first to incorporate the design changes, was rolled out in April and made its first flight on 28 April. The sixth prototype, PT-06, made its maiden flight on 10 September [the implication is that PT-05 first flew between April and September]
2007 On 2 March, the first consignment of two small-batch-production (SBP) aircraft arrived in a dismantled state in Pakistan from China. They flew for the first time on 10 March 2007
2008 At Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), production of sub-assemblies commences on 22 January
2009 Final assembly of the JF-17 in Pakistan begins on 30 June. PAC expects to complete production of four to six aircraft this year. They plan to produce twelve aircraft in 2010 and fifteen to sixteen aircraft per year from 2011 on; this could increase to twenty-five aircraft per year.
2013 On 18 December , production of Block 2 JF-17s began at PAC's Kamra facility. Block 2 construction activity is planned to run until 2016
2015 On December 29, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) announced the rollout of 16th Block 2 JF-17 Thunder fighter manufactured in the calendar year 2015, taking total number of manufactured aircraft to more than 66.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder

Nd this jet has nothing new except missile nd engine.nd it has same old design still body don't have fly by wire technique, nd mostly it has lowest flight test before induction.... nd don't forget its NT ur jet only its a joint venture so India have different jet of joint venture nd u know that if u want to compare it with that we cn....

 

[#hydra#]

1991 the Fighter China project was launched.
1995 Pakistan and China sign a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint design and development of a new fighter. Mikoyan joins the project to provide "design support", this also involved the secondment of several engineers by CAC. Pakistan to select a Western company by the end of the year to provide and integrate the FC-1's avionics, which was expected to go into production by 1999.
1998 in February, Pakistan and China sign a letter of intent covering airframe development.
1999 In June, the contract to jointly develop and produce the Chengdu FC-1/Super 7 was signed.
2001 The JF-17 design was finalised. Due to sanctions, PAF decides to decouple the airframe from the avionics, enabling design work on the aircraft to continue. As the airframe was developed, any new avionics requirements by the PAF could be more easily integrated into the airframe.
2002, In September, prototype production began; a full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7 was displayed at Airshow China in November. The first batch of Klimov RD-93 turbofan engines to power the prototypes was also delivered in 2002.
2003 The first prototype, PT-01, was rolled out on 31 May and the maiden flight was made in late August.
2004 The maiden flight of the third prototype, PT-03, took place on 9 April [therefor PT-2 first flew between August 003 and April 2004] Following the third prototype, several design improvements were developed and incorporated into further aircraft.
2005 Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) begins manufacturing JF-17 components
2006 PT-04, the fourth prototype and the first to incorporate the design changes, was rolled out in April and made its first flight on 28 April. The sixth prototype, PT-06, made its maiden flight on 10 September [the implication is that PT-05 first flew between April and September]
2007 On 2 March, the first consignment of two small-batch-production (SBP) aircraft arrived in a dismantled state in Pakistan from China. They flew for the first time on 10 March 2007
2008 At Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), production of sub-assemblies commences on 22 January
2009 Final assembly of the JF-17 in Pakistan begins on 30 June. PAC expects to complete production of four to six aircraft this year. They plan to produce twelve aircraft in 2010 and fifteen to sixteen aircraft per year from 2011 on; this could increase to twenty-five aircraft per year.
2013 On 18 December , production of Block 2 JF-17s began at PAC's Kamra facility. Block 2 construction activity is planned to run until 2016
2015 On December 29, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) announced the rollout of 16th Block 2 JF-17 Thunder fighter manufactured in the calendar year 2015, taking total number of manufactured aircraft to more than 66.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder

Pakistani jf17 is a better managed project than LCA,its a fact. About the capabilities only time Will tells that.

 

[Penguin]

Main reason India got sanctions after nuclear tests in 1998 by us and west so tejas get delayed . but pak got tech by China with made not any sanctions ..

US sanctions blocked avionics for Pakistan

Nd this jet has nothing new except missile nd engine.nd it has same old design still body don't have fly by wire technique, nd mostly it has lowest flight test before induction.... nd don't forget its NT ur jet only its a joint venture so India have different jet of joint venture nd u know that if u want to compare it with that we cn....

It is not an old airframe design. Just like that of the LCA isn't.

Pakistani jf17 is a better managed project than LCA,its a fact. About the capabilities only time Will tells that.

Still, the nature of the project is different. And so is the starting point. And the project partners. The simpler, clearer the project (or the more complex and fuzzier) the easier (difficult) the project is to manage.

Does everything here have to be compared India/Pakistan and made into a competition. Can we just look at the merits per se?

 

[Agent_47]

IAF chief blames UPA for procurement delays, spells out schedule for boosting fighter squadrons

Addressing his first press conference since India contracted for 36 Rafale fighters from France, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, outlined on Tuesday his vision for how crippling deficiencies in fighter aircraft would be tackled.

Raha blamed the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government’s preoccupation with procedure for the IAF’s current aircraft shortfalls — it has just 34 fighter squadrons instead of the sanctioned 45. He said: “I think all our procurements have been more or less process driven and not outcome driven. [Now] there is a change of perception and now most of the procurement processes and policies are being amended so that it is (sic) outcome driven.”

“We have planned up to 2027 and if the inductions had been timely, the IAF’s capabilities, certainly in terms of combat aircraft — as of now it is good, but it would have been better.”

The IAF has not yet closed the Rafale chapter. With Dassault, the Rafale’s French vendor, believed to be readying a proposal for building 80 more Rafales in India, Raha stated: “We would like to have more, but the decision will be taken in the near future based on capabilities and the desirability of having [more] fighter aircraft of this class.”

Second fighter line

The air chief indicated that a new Make in India fighter production line could come up soon, based on “unsolicited offers” from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab for building their fighters in India --- respectively the F-16 Block 70, F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Gripen E. These offers are conditional on the IAF buying and operating the fighter in question.

“This is very much on the table and I’m sure whoever gives the best deal [will win]. All the aircraft are very capable, so it will depend upon who provides the best transfer of technology; and, of course, the price tag. It’s on the table; nothing is decided as yet.”

Raha said: “This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology. Also, India will become a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region.

Jaguar

The IAF chief also flashed a green light on modifying and upgrading the Jaguar fleet, the IAF’s key fighter for deep penetration strikes. As Business Standard has reported (March 27, 2015 “Facing dwindling numbers, Jaguar upgrade crucial for Indian Air Force”) at least four of the six Jaguar squadrons (120 aircraft) will be rejuvenated with new Honeywell F-125N engines for $3 billion, a modern Airborne Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, indigenous DARIN-3 avionics and will carry the smart CBU-105 “sensor fuzed weapons” that India bought from Textron, USA.

Raha said: “To exploit the Jaguar for the next 15-20 years, we are upgrading the aircraft with better weapons. I think there has been slow progress in the past but I’m sure this is going to pick up steam, and very soon we’ll see progress.”

Raha also said upgrade programmes were progressing well in the three Mirage 2000 squadrons (cost: Rs 12,100 crore); and three MiG-29 squadrons (cost Rs 6,400 crore).

Indo-Russian FGFA

The tortuous negotiations holding up the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are resolved, Raha confirmed. The two sides are believed to have agreed on a $4 billion “R&D Contract” that could see HAL and Sukhoi co-develop and build up to 250 FGFAs for the IAF.

Raha said: “[Earlier, the IAF] found gaps in information on transfer of technology; how they (Sukhoi) have achieved these 5th generation technologies, and in visibility of the total cost. So these issues were flagged… and now a lot of clarity has come on these issues. Hopefully things will be decided sooner rather than later on the FGFA.”

Tejas LCA

For the first time, the IAF chief spelt out a detailed commitment and roadmap for inducting 120 Tejas fighters into the IAF in a decade.

Raha said the first squadron, which will have 20 Tejas with “initial operational certification” (IOC), will have four fighter this year, with HAL boosting production to eight fighters annually from next year. “So in another year and a half’s time, we will have a full squadron of LCA’s – the IOC version”, he said.

Raha revealed the long-delayed “final operational certification” (FOC) of the Tejas was imminent. “I’m sure in another five-six months FOC would be cleared and production will start as soon as [HAL] finishes producing the IOC version. So we expect that the FOC version [of the Tejas] will be operationalized in an IAF fighter squadron in another three years time.”

Meanwhile, the Tejas Mark 1A, with improved radar, weapons, electronic warfare capability and maintainability would fly in three-four years.

“We should be able to start production of this aircraft by 2020-21; and in another five-seven years [i.e. by 2025-28], we’ll have 80 Tejas Mark 1A fighters”, said Raha.


http://www.business-standard.com/ar...oosting-fighter-squadrons-116100400819_1.html

it will take atleast 2026 to induct all 120 LCAs. Mk2 will remain a fantasy for us.
@PARIKRAMA

 

[Echo_419]

IAF chief blames UPA for procurement delays, spells out schedule for boosting fighter squadrons

Addressing his first press conference since India contracted for 36 Rafale fighters from France, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, outlined on Tuesday his vision for how crippling deficiencies in fighter aircraft would be tackled.

Raha blamed the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government’s preoccupation with procedure for the IAF’s current aircraft shortfalls — it has just 34 fighter squadrons instead of the sanctioned 45. He said: “I think all our procurements have been more or less process driven and not outcome driven. [Now] there is a change of perception and now most of the procurement processes and policies are being amended so that it is (sic) outcome driven.”

“We have planned up to 2027 and if the inductions had been timely, the IAF’s capabilities, certainly in terms of combat aircraft — as of now it is good, but it would have been better.”

The IAF has not yet closed the Rafale chapter. With Dassault, the Rafale’s French vendor, believed to be readying a proposal for building 80 more Rafales in India, Raha stated: “We would like to have more, but the decision will be taken in the near future based on capabilities and the desirability of having [more] fighter aircraft of this class.”

Second fighter line

The air chief indicated that a new Make in India fighter production line could come up soon, based on “unsolicited offers” from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab for building their fighters in India --- respectively the F-16 Block 70, F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Gripen E. These offers are conditional on the IAF buying and operating the fighter in question.

“This is very much on the table and I’m sure whoever gives the best deal [will win]. All the aircraft are very capable, so it will depend upon who provides the best transfer of technology; and, of course, the price tag. It’s on the table; nothing is decided as yet.”

Raha said: “This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology. Also, India will become a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region.

Jaguar

The IAF chief also flashed a green light on modifying and upgrading the Jaguar fleet, the IAF’s key fighter for deep penetration strikes. As Business Standard has reported (March 27, 2015 “Facing dwindling numbers, Jaguar upgrade crucial for Indian Air Force”) at least four of the six Jaguar squadrons (120 aircraft) will be rejuvenated with new Honeywell F-125N engines for $3 billion, a modern Airborne Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, indigenous DARIN-3 avionics and will carry the smart CBU-105 “sensor fuzed weapons” that India bought from Textron, USA.

Raha said: “To exploit the Jaguar for the next 15-20 years, we are upgrading the aircraft with better weapons. I think there has been slow progress in the past but I’m sure this is going to pick up steam, and very soon we’ll see progress.”

Raha also said upgrade programmes were progressing well in the three Mirage 2000 squadrons (cost: Rs 12,100 crore); and three MiG-29 squadrons (cost Rs 6,400 crore).

Indo-Russian FGFA

The tortuous negotiations holding up the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are resolved, Raha confirmed. The two sides are believed to have agreed on a $4 billion “R&D Contract” that could see HAL and Sukhoi co-develop and build up to 250 FGFAs for the IAF.

Raha said: “[Earlier, the IAF] found gaps in information on transfer of technology; how they (Sukhoi) have achieved these 5th generation technologies, and in visibility of the total cost. So these issues were flagged… and now a lot of clarity has come on these issues. Hopefully things will be decided sooner rather than later on the FGFA.”

Tejas LCA

For the first time, the IAF chief spelt out a detailed commitment and roadmap for inducting 120 Tejas fighters into the IAF in a decade.

Raha said the first squadron, which will have 20 Tejas with “initial operational certification” (IOC), will have four fighter this year, with HAL boosting production to eight fighters annually from next year. “So in another year and a half’s time, we will have a full squadron of LCA’s – the IOC version”, he said.

Raha revealed the long-delayed “final operational certification” (FOC) of the Tejas was imminent. “I’m sure in another five-six months FOC would be cleared and production will start as soon as [HAL] finishes producing the IOC version. So we expect that the FOC version [of the Tejas] will be operationalized in an IAF fighter squadron in another three years time.”

Meanwhile, the Tejas Mark 1A, with improved radar, weapons, electronic warfare capability and maintainability would fly in three-four years.

“We should be able to start production of this aircraft by 2020-21; and in another five-seven years [i.e. by 2025-28], we’ll have 80 Tejas Mark 1A fighters”, said Raha.


http://www.business-standard.com/ar...oosting-fighter-squadrons-116100400819_1.html

it will take atleast 2026 to induct all 120 LCAs. Mk2 will remain a fantasy for us.
@PARIKRAMA

1 more foreign Aircraft besides Rafale?
Chutiya hai kya yeh & Shift the production of LCA to a private player already
@PARIKRAMA any idea why aren't they investing in the LCA & AMCA programme