Hajj stampede beyond human control, 'destiny is inevitable', says top Saudi cleric

[Madali]

Nobody said it's Africans. Iranian Haj oficial as well as eye witnesses confirmed that 300 Iranians ignored the instructions which caused the tragedy. That's why the majority of the casualties are Iranians.

Do you read the news and ignore anything you don't like?

Fury as Saudi's hajj chief blames African pilgrims for stampede that killed 700 | Daily Mail Online

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Do you read the news and ignore anything you don't like?

Fury as Saudi's hajj chief blames African pilgrims for stampede that killed 700 | Daily Mail Online

• Saudi Prince Khaled al-Faisal reportedly blamed the stampede on 'some pilgrims with African nationalities'

Read more: Fury as Saudi's hajj chief blames African pilgrims for stampede that killed 700 | Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Madali]

• Saudi Prince Khaled al-Faisal reportedly blamed the stampede on 'some pilgrims with African nationalities'

Read more: Fury as Saudi's hajj chief blames African pilgrims for stampede that killed 700 | Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Like how Saudi princes are always allegedly raping poor girls, they are also reportedly always saying stupid stuff.

Why is the world so mean to these poor innocent angels???

 

[somebozo]

He is just a responsibility avoiding troll of highest caliber..

 

[asad71]

everything is at god will. not you or anyone can change that.
if you don't like what you see don't come here and do your hajj in Karblaa. and early report confirm an Iranian pilgrimage company is behind the cause of the stampede. let us wait and see the result of the investigation if it is true we will take measures regarding the Iranian visitor.


not your call and it is not your business

It's time the Saudis realized the institution of Hajj is not a Saudi exclusive. It belongs to all Muslims. After the ouster of the Sharif of Makkah, the stewardship should have been transferred to a group of selected alems from all over the world. In the past the Hajj was the principal source of income for the Arabs. The Turks had built suitable infrastructures. But the major funding for Makkah's development and Hajj arrangement came from donations by SA Muslims.

Vatican works because all Catholics are supposed to be answerable to the Pope. In Islam, we don't yet have a "Pope" or Head Imam or whatever. So its unrealistic until there is a unified Muslim force.

Vatican example is wrong and unIslamic. We do not have a formal clergy or theocracy. A Muslim deals with his Creator direct and is solely responsible for his acts/actions.

 

[fallstuff]

This mullah is well for the lack of a better word "being mullah." Is it the same idiot who said,

Saudi cleric says driving risks damaging women's ovaries - BBC News

Uproar after Saudi cleric says driving hurts women’s ovaries | GulfNews.com

 

[Daneshmand]

This mullah is well for the lack of a better word "being mullah." Is it the same idiot who said,

Saudi cleric says driving risks damaging women's ovaries - BBC News

Uproar after Saudi cleric says driving hurts women’s ovaries | GulfNews.com

Actually medically it is the other way around. Driving and more so riding motorbikes or horses damage men's testicles. Women are safe in this regard. Women can go on doing all these things without worrying about damage to their precious gonads.

 

[vsdoc]

As I understand it the Dharmic religions prevalent in India/South Asia (Hinduism, Janism, Sikhism) are only mostly confined to India excluding the Indian diaspora, old as new. Buddhism is probably the only Dharmic religion which spread outside of its original homeland (Northern South Asia) to influence the "Chinese Sphere of influence" (East Asia basically).

On the other hand the Abrahamic/Semitic religions can be found in every single country on the planet (in by far most of the world's 200 or so countries they form the vast majority) and on all continents.

True, and it would probably not be wrong to conjecture that there would a near similar spread of Dharmics around the world. Hindu, Buddhist and the smaller other Dharmic faiths which together total around 21% (1.5 billion) of the world population .

Of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world (23% of the world population), close to 0.6 billion are in the subcontinent alone. Ex-dharmics all.

Of the remaining 1 billion world Muslims, most would be found in the Middle East, and SE Asia (Indonesia).

So regardless of military conquest beyond the borders of the parent faith, the spread of Dharmic and Muslim people around the world, as indeed the numbers in total, would be very close.

I suppose that you are one of the 40.000 or so Zoroastrians in India, am I right? In your case, from what I have heard, conversion of non-natives is not allowed hence you have a different outlook. But like any religion before Zoroastrianism must have spread way outside of the town, city, village, province or land it originated from initially thus also converting "outsiders".

Some of my earlier posts on this forum on Zoroastrianism and Conversion, both with respect to Persia and India.

Conversion to Zoroastrianism

India’s vanishing Parsis | Page 14

Iran - Reversion to Zoroastrianism

India’s vanishing Parsis | Page 14

My belief is that the human race is made up of different people. Different bloodlines and civilizations. Some which grew and continue to this day. Some which died and disappeared.

I believe that part of the process of evolution and the growth curve of every civilization is the genesis and evolution of its theology and faith among its people.

Yes, a faith can be, has been, and probably will continue to be spread by military conquest of different peoples. But in the end a new faith will only take seed in the absence or void of a dominant one. And otherwise revert over time.

Both Hinduism and Zoroastrianism are examples of ancient faiths which spread beyond their borders by conquest and colonization. But eventually the faith came back to its original adherents, replaced elsewhere by other newer and dominant faiths (Buddhism, Islam in SE Asia).

Such I believe will be the cycle for Zoroastrianism and Persia as well. And eventually as well, Hinduism and India.

Christianity being older than Islam is already ahead in the same cycle.Consolidating mainly on lands where the parent civilizational culture is dead (or killed off) or never existed in the first place.

Islam is relatively still a very new faith. The youngest of the major faiths. And it was born in its own place and grew from there. Its conflict of spread with established older faiths for the most part, as by then most of the rest of the civilized world was covered by the great faiths.

This cycle of birth, spread, and reaffirmation and consolidation within the original bloodlines, is one that every faith has and will go through. Which is why I am cognizant and ultimately supportive of the preeminent position of the Arab people within Islam.

In any case although you can say that there is some kind of seniority in Judaism, Islam and Christianity based on who became the first adherents and where it happened it's only bound in historical facts at most as all adherents of those 3 religions regardless of origin are treated equally in the scriptures hence the global emphasis. To guide ALL of humanity and not only a specific people or region.

Like you, I am not overly religious, but I do read a bit, and history and civilizations and conflicts interest me, and from what I've read, it seems that there has been a significant impact of Zoroastrianism on all three Abrahamic faiths. The continuum of Judaism, Christianity, and finally Islam.

A continuum if you will of Middle Eastern monotheistic theology across the ages, with different epochs birthing different Prophets amongst different peoples, from those peoples, of those peoples, for those peoples (from Aryan to the Semitic - which is also why I believe in the blood and soil paradigm of faith so strongly).

To a large extent, Shia Islam is Zoroastrianized Islam. And Bahaiism an even more Zoroastrianized version of the same continuum.

A more culture and race congruent version colored by the parent faith and adopted eventually wholesale by the Persians, who by that time had almost completely become Muslim.

As I understand, Persia immediately after the Arab conquests was largely Sunni first, and became Shia almost wholly some time later. Even though historically Shiism probably originated in what is today Iraq, in the early 1100s and 1200s, it would still very much have been a part of the Persian sphere of influence.

Do excuse the slightly long-winded post, but its a pleasure speaking to an educated and articulate Arab with an open mind on religion.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Ceylal]

The country where the dead are burried like a field of potatoes
Saudi Arabia

And the potatoes..

 

[Azizam]

Hajj stampede beyond human control, 'destiny is inevitable', says top Saudi cleric - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


This is what annoys me most about us from the Middle East, or Muslims in general. We quickly claim it was God's will, and don't shoulder the responsibility.

"You are not responsible for what happened," Sheikh Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh told Crown Prince Mohammed bin Nayef in a meeting in Mina, the official Saudi Press Agency (SPA) reported.

"As for the things that humans cannot control, you are not blamed for them. Fate and destiny are inevitable," the sheikh told the prince, who is also minister of interior.

Notice hardly any self-criticism. It is either God's will or it is because of the victims. Furthur in the article, you can read this,

Abdullah al-Sheikh, chairman of the Shura Council, an appointed body which advises the government, stressed that pilgrims must stick to "the rules and regulations taken by the security personnel".
"In doing so they protect their lives, their security and facilitate their performing of the rituals," he said.

THIS IS NOT DIRECTLY ONLY AT THE SAUDI GOVERNMENT. My attack is on ANY Muslim or Middle East or Asian mentality that shrugs off responsibility by claiming it is God's will. It is lazy, idiotic, and irresponsible. In countries like Germany or Japan, they don't look at an accident and respond like this. They take full responsibility and take action.

I don't know what you are whining about! This is what religion is. Giving retarded explanations to things they can't comprehend instead of working to find reasonable explanations and in this case even prevent a future scenario.

 

[The SiLent crY]

Iranian officials speaking of 4700 dead pilgrims .

Just in 2 out of 21 trucks , more than 25 Iranian dead pilgrims were found today .

 

[Serpentine]

Iranian officials speaking of 4700 dead pilgrims .

Just in 2 out of 21 trucks , more than 25 Iranian dead pilgrims were found today .

They are hiding a big number of bodies.

There are already reports that they want to bury them in mass graves in order not to give the bodies to countries of origin, hence not letting the real number out.

Give me one single reason why hundreds of people from all various countries are still missing while the accident happened only in a part of one single street?

 

[Daneshmand]

There are already reports that they want to bury them in mass graves in order not to give the bodies to countries of origin, hence not letting the real number out.

And no forensic examination either. Therefore no scientific proof of the cause of death. Say they torture and kill an important scientist or engineer from Iran on pilgrim and then artificially make an accident and throw in his body in the mix as well. No forensic study, no investigation and no bodies. The perfect crime.

Was any Iranian scientist killed recently in Saudi Arabia?

These questions have now to be asked.

 

[Madali]

Numbers are higher. Here is one proof,

Hajj crush: Saudi Arabia issues over 1,000 images suggesting death-toll rise | World news | The Guardian

Obviously, it is much higher than that, more than 1000 photos of the dead are given to Indian and Pakistani authorities. Most likely it is 1100+ photos of unidentified dead they think might be Indian or Pakistani.

 

[Schutz]

They are hiding a big number of bodies.

There are already reports that they want to bury them in mass graves in order not to give the bodies to countries of origin, hence not letting the real number out.

Give me one single reason why hundreds of people from all various countries are still missing while the accident happened only in a part of one single street?

Because, Saudi fucking Arabia