Hail to the chief : Economist

[VCheng]

The military controls the security and foreign policy, nothing more. The longer civil institutions are allowed to remain in power, the stronger they will become. The military will, eventually, have no choice but to let go of these two things.

Personally, I think it will be a former military man that finally puts civil authorities in complete control of the military.

The military controls the security and foreign policy, yes. As well as the purse strings. And the political process. And it has its own courts. And it is above the law, with its own Army Act. So what's left?

 

[That Guy]

The military controls the security and foreign policy, yes. As well as the purse strings. And the political process. And it has its own courts. And it is above the law, with its own Army Act. So what's left?

Really? Are you really that ignorant about your own country? Okay, I'm done.

 

[VCheng]

Really? Are you really that ignorant about your own country? Okay, I'm done.

Actually, all of what I have said is factual.

The military controls the security and foreign policy, yes, as you have admitted. As well as the purse strings - where else in the world does the GHQ summon the Finance Minister and hands over a list to be financed by the nation? And the political process - witness the IK Dharna prject, as the latest example of its continued illegal meddling. And it has its own courts - that is a fact. And it is above the law, with its own Army Act - that is a fact too.

Now please tell me what have I said that suggests ignorance?

 

[That Guy]

Actually, all of what I have said is factual.

The military controls the security and foreign policy, yes, as you have admitted. As well as the purse strings - where else in the world does the GHQ summon the Finance Minister and hands over a list to be financed by the nation?

Literally every nation. Budgets exist for a reason, and it is the nation that finances it's institutions. It is the GOVERNMENT's responsibility to make sure that it's institutions are well funded, not the other way around.

And the political process - witness the IK Dharna prject, as the latest example of its continued illegal meddling. And it has its own courts - that is a fact. And it is above the law, with its own Army Act - that is a fact too.

The courts are temporary, and are being supervised by the civil judiciary (the fact that a number of cases are being intervened upon by the civil judiciary proves my point). The Army Act isn't as malicious as you'd like to pretend it is, and has had no effect on Pakistan's political process. IK's protest was his own, there is little evidence to suggest that the military was behind it. I'm convinced that the military simple took advantage of it, nothing more.

So far, the military has stayed away from political meddling, and has left it to civil leaders to decide the future of the country. It seems to be working.

Now please tell me what have I said that suggests ignorance?

Everything above.

 

[VCheng]

Literally every nation. Budgets exist for a reason, and it is the nation that finances it's institutions. It is the GOVERNMENT's responsibility to make sure that it's institutions are well funded, not the other way around.


The courts are temporary, and are being supervised by the civil judiciary (the fact that a number of cases are being intervened upon by the civil judiciary proves my point). The Army Act isn't as malicious as you'd like to pretend it is, and has had no effect on Pakistan's political process. IK's protest was his own, there is little evidence to suggest that the military was behind it. I'm convinced that the military simple took advantage of it, nothing more.

So far, the military has stayed away from political meddling, and has left it to civil leaders to decide the future of the country. It seems to be working.


Everything above.

A nation financing its defense is very different that the military holding its nation's social development to ransom. And the military courts are a fact for the time being, and we have yet to see just how "temporary" they will eventually turn out to be. The Army Act places military personnel above the law for everything, when in fact it should cover only their professional conduct during the course of their legal and official duties, so it does work perversely. And the military "taking advantage" of an engineered political crisis is just a euphemism for illegal meddling. The whole world knows these facts Sir. Claiming otherwise is fooling no one, sadly.

Edit: BTW, I am not anti-military, just anti-illegality. Please do read this as well:

Eight Good People

 

[That Guy]

A nation financing its defense is very different that the military holding its nation's social development to ransom. And the military courts are a fact for the time being, and we have yet to see just how "temporary" they will eventually turn out to be. The Army Act places military personnel above the law for everything, when in fact it should cover only their professional conduct during the course of their legal and official duties, so it does work perversely. And the military "taking advantage" of an engineered political crisis is just a euphemism for illegal meddling. The whole world knows these facts Sir. Claiming otherwise is fooling no one, sadly.

Edit: BTW, I am not anti-military, just anti-illegality. Please do read this as well:

Eight Good People

There is need to fool anyone, because the evidence is there to see. You're looking at the surface, but ignoring what is beneath it. I've already addressed your points, no need for me to repeat myself.

Also, the thread you posted, your view is oversimplified.

 

[VCheng]

There is need to fool anyone, because the evidence is there to see. You're looking at the surface, but ignoring what is beneath it. I've already addressed your points, no need for me to repeat myself.

Also, the thread you posted, your view is oversimplified.

Actually, it is the attempts at obfuscation that need this complexity to hide the truth. You have not addressed anything, since all my points remain true and factual, in the posts above. My views in that article are correct, straightforward, and good for the country, taking into account the ground realities, and provide a viable way forward that removes the need for illegal shenanigans by the military. However, only those who benefit from the present system would feel threatened by any proposed changes.

 

[sady]

I am astonished at people who start preaching law when it comes to establishment. They are least bothered when people reside well within law by making law their concubine, run havoc with peoples life and still arrive at courts waving victory.
Idealism in times of adversity is a sin. It paralyses your most efficient and effective response.
Can I ask my esteemed scholar friends, likes of whom are found commenting on Tribune and Dawn News in abundance, who do you think can bell the cat? No ifs and buts but straight answer. Who will bring these corrupt politicians to task? NAB? Educated voters of Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

 

[VCheng]

No ifs and buts but straight answer.

Straight answer? Here it is:

Eight Good People

 

[coffee_cup]

In uniform, without uniform
In civil service, in private business
In sports, in healthcare, in education

Anyone who is doing anything positive for Pakistan is a true hero. And since the general has done an excellent work in pressurizing the govt to kick start the accountability process and establish peace in otherwise disturbed areas, he is no doubt a hero for our country and people just adore him!

 

[sady]

Straight answer? Here it is:

Eight Good People

Perceptions are every thing in today's world. I would not like Generals sitting in a cabinet. I would not even like Generals giving Civs a nudge towards what they want as foreign policy. I would like Military-Civ think tanks formulating policies or direction and Foreign office acting on their advice. I would like NAB being cleansed from Political inclinations by pressure from Army, not Generals taking helm of affairs. It is not the capacity issue rather than the will. The need of the hour is for civilians to do what they are supposed to do. Civilians should be more mindful of national interests. I would like civilians to be more hawkish when it comes to National Interest and take the initiative away from Military men.
General Raheel Shareef is putting enough pressure on Gov that it makes decisions based on national interest rather than political and self serving needs. The problem is not that they do not know what needs to be done, the intentions are wrong and no number of generals in cabinet can set these right.

 

[VCheng]

Perceptions are every thing in today's world. I would not like Generals sitting in a cabinet. I would not even like Generals giving Civs a nudge towards what they want as foreign policy. I would like Military-Civ think tanks formulating policies or direction and Foreign office acting on their advice. I would like NAB being cleansed from Political inclinations by pressure from Army, not Generals taking helm of affairs. It is not the capacity issue rather than the will. The need of the hour is for civilians to do what they are supposed to do. Civilians should be more mindful of national interests. I would like civilians to be more hawkish when it comes to National Interest and take the initiative away from Military men.
General Raheel Shareef is putting enough pressure on Gov that it makes decisions based on national interest rather than political and self serving needs. The problem is not that they do not know what needs to be done, the intentions are wrong and no number of generals in cabinet can set these right.

The present system works better inside the country only, but fails totally in international geopolitics, and that is increasingly becoming problematic, given the changes that are occurring globally. The hybrid system I proposed gives the Generals the legal backing they need to do whatever it is that they are doing already. Legitimacy matters a lot. General Raheel putting pressure on the elected government sounds good and even justifiable by some, but is illegal from a Constitutional point of view, and that is what the entire world sees. It may be gratifying for you to see Pakistan's PM being treated like an idiot abroad because he is just a puppet, but I see the nation being humiliated by the acts of its military. That is the difference that gives Modi a huge advantage, and the effects are evident already, and will only grow larger in the years ahead.

 

[saadee]

What COAS has anything to do with corruption in Pakistani Society ? This is not his job to do.

Then how are you going to stop them? They are born with corrupt blood. Danda is the only answer.

Maybe...but remember that is what Musharaff tried to do...when he took over in a coup people really loved him, he came across as bluff, straight talking modernizer. There were so many pictures of him and his dog, everyone knew he liked whiskey and had a soft spot for the ladies. He was supposed to bring in toughness and modernize instead, he got all mixed up in the regressive politics and was forced out as probably one of the most hated leaders.

Pakistan is one of the hardest countires in the world to run.


So you would support him running for president if he decides to in the future? But isn't the current civilian government doing a fair job considering the mess they inherited? The economy is looking up,new power projects are in the pipeline, Solar energy is being given priority, cPEC, why not give them more time?

There is a difference in between Musharaf and Raheel Shareef. He is simply not interested in the politics

 

[sady]

The present system works better inside the country only, but fails totally in international geopolitics, and that is increasingly becoming problematic, given the changes that are occurring globally. The hybrid system I proposed gives the Generals the legal backing they need to do whatever it is that they are doing already. Legitimacy matters a lot. General Raheel putting pressure on the elected government sounds good and even justifiable by some, but is illegal from a Constitutional point of view, and that is what the entire world sees. It may be gratifying for you to see Pakistan's PM being treated like an idiot abroad because he is just a puppet, but I see the nation being humiliated by the acts of its military. That is the difference that gives Modi a huge advantage, and the effects are evident already, and will only grow larger in the years ahead.

I think giving it a legal backing will make it look a bit more ridiculous in eyes of International law. Atleast it is deniable right now however once it becomes official Pakistan will truly become a laughing stock. It will be an official admission of ineptness, nepotism and corruption in political system.

 

[VCheng]

I think giving it a legal backing will make it look a bit more ridiculous in eyes of International law. Atleast it is deniable right now however once it becomes official Pakistan will truly become a laughing stock. It will be an official admission of ineptness, nepotism and corruption in political system.

The present system is fooling no one Sir. No one.