Govt soon to take decision on P 75 I

[mkb95]

Navy sources confirmed that government will soon to take decision of P 75 I submarine construction project in India, with the assistance from foreign vendors. Under the make in India plan private/public shipyards will be selected to construct six new generation submarines. The estimated project cost around of some $10 billions which include weapons and support systems.

Currently four nations offering their submarines and government personally request the Japanese to participate the P 75 I program. each nations offer's their new generation air independent and fuel cell based submarine to India, Earlier six scorpene class submarine costs around some $3 billions. and India plans to construct additional three secorpene subs.

The new generation submarines comes with pretty modern technologies, like vertical launching tubes, marine delivery vehicles, and advanced propulsion mechanism. The Israeli Dolphin boats comes with six 533mm torpedo tubes and four 650mm torpedo tubes to launch long range popeye cruise missile.

The German designed modified Dolphin known as one of the heaviest and superior sub marine after the Japanese Soryu class boats. The Germans are offering the Type 214 submarine, which is a variant of Dolphin class. The Japanese are asked to participate the P 75 I program with the new generation Soryu class displacing around 4000 tons. However they didn't interested to participate.

Recently the Spanish offered their S 80 class submarine to India, when speaking, Navantia shipyards officials said, Spain is ready to offer the state of art S 80 to India under the P 75 I program.

Anyway, as per some information's there were two contenders are competing to capture the deal, one is the French DCNS made SMX Ocean and the German designed Type 216 boats. India currently operates German, French and Russian made submarines. and Indian Navy not ready to move away from the earlier contractors. So it would be a challenge between SMX Ocean and Type 216.





The SMX Ocean is a derivative of French nuclear submarine Barracuda. The SMX ocean comes with AIP and lithium ion cells instead of nuclear propulsion in Barracuda. The unique model of SMX Ocean comes with six vertical launching cells and torpedo tubes. The sub also comes with a marine delivery vehicles, which can also launch unmanned underwater vehicles too.

The SMX Ocean is a huge sized submarine with the displacement of around 4000 tons. Almost equal size of the German future submarine Type 216. both these large size submarines are designed to conduct operations long away from the port or conduct long range underwater escort mission for carrier strike group.

The Germans didn't offered the Type 216 to India, Since it is a concept model only. If India asks the Germans to offer the Type 216 they will offer it. Currently the Type 216 and SMX Ocean participating the Australian submarine tender to replace the Collins class submarine. The Australians are operating two Juan Carlos class LHD's. The new submarines are intended to provide underwater escort to the LHD's.


Soon Indian Navy too operate two large sized aircraft carrier and four LHD's. As a carrier strike missions Navy needs two submarines for underwater escort. this can be done by Scorpene and SMX Ocean or Type 216 submarine.
source- Life of Soldiers: Govt soon to take decision on P 75 I

 

[#hydra#]

Goi &mod,pls we dont want another rafale type selection processes.

 

[Abba_Dabba_Jabba]

Goi &mod,pls we dont want another rafale type selection processes.

It's for Navy, the best performing department of Armed Forces in terms of acquisition and indigineous products.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Type 216s coming ......

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Well i have said this

India signs accord with France to purchase 36 Rafale | Page 3


The technology of Barracuda is suppose to be used in our SSNs.. So P75I essentially is a precursor and a conventional version testing modules of such hi end tech that essentially goes into SSN project.

I said before and i repeat, The German tech is good no doubt but DCNS bid with experience of a Barracuda (nuclear propulsion) adds a big advantage along with silent propulsion techniques and acoustic signature reduction which are very superior

These crown jewels which were offered to Australia if its given to India, they emerge the strongest contenders..

But its going to be costly owing to the fact that backdeal may include many things for the black project saddled into P75I costs..

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Well i have said this

View attachment 294690

India signs accord with France to purchase 36 Rafale | Page 3


The technology of Barracuda is suppose to be used in our SSNs.. So P75I essentially is a precursor and a conventional version testing modules of such hi end tech that essentially goes into SSN project.

I said before and i repeat, The German tech is good no doubt but DCNS bid with experience of a Barracuda (nuclear propulsion) adds a big advantage along with silent propulsion techniques and acoustic signature reduction which are very superior

These crown jewels which were offered to Australia if its given to India, they emerge the strongest contenders..

But its going to be costly owing to the fact that backdeal may include many things for the black project saddled into P75I costs..

It will be a duel between DCNS and HDW untill the improved Lada Russians are building proves it self .
I feel it will be Type216s because they already have started on Type 218s , a derivative of Type 216 for Singapore, so it will not be like India will be the first one to use it. Plus add the price factor, unless MoD decides to go for the best, they will surely go for a platform fulfilling the basics and one which costs least.

Plus doling out more than a billion for SSKs isn't logic, one gets SSNs at that price.

Yes the angle that France is offering help for our SSN project is alright , and if its MDL, its for sure French option.

But if its either L&T or HSL.... German ships coming.

Today as we speak around 70 German SSKs are operational and that gives their bid a big boost, I think only Kilos come up to their production legacy.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

It will be a duel between DCNS and HDW untill the improved Lada Russians are building proves it self .
I feel it will be Type216s because they already have started on Type 218s , a derivative of Type 216 for Singapore, so it will not be like India will be the first one to use it. Plus add the price factor, unless MoD decides to go for the best, they will surely go for a platform fulfilling the basics and one which costs least.

Plus doling out more than a billion for SSKs isn't logic, one gets SSNs at that price.

Yes the angle that France is offering help for our SSN project is alright , and if its MDL, its for sure French option.

But if its either L&T or HSL.... German ships coming.

Today as we speak around 70 German SSKs are operational and that gives their bid a big boost, I think only Kilos come up to their production legacy.

Probably you are correct..
But Type 216 is not cheap

See here
A $20 billion offer by the parent company to deliver 12 Type 216-based submarines built in Germany, Australia or a mix of both, had been based on RAN’s anticipated top-level requirements, Dr. John White, chairman of the Melbourne-based subsidiary TKMS Australia (TKMSA), clarified to the Senate Economics References Committee in July.
Australia's New Submarines: Run Silent, Run German? | The National Interest Blog

Now thats 12 sub order..
Assume its the same price which of course cant be as bcz P75I is 6 now versus 12 being offered for SEA 1000 competition
Still thats 20Bn/12 = USD 1.67 Bn

For us its almost reaching USD 10 Bn. On top extras including weapons will cost more..

Thats why its a tough choice...

See this also

DCNS isn't yet talking costs or delivery schedule. However each nuclear Barracuda costs around 1.3 billion Euros, so Australia's non-nuclear boat would be cheaper.
French firm says it can build subs in Aust - Yahoo7 Finance Australia

Assuming even a 20% cost reduction the prices come down to approx Euro1.04 Bn or USD 1.1 Bn.. More in line with other package needs...

Since the choice of local Indian yard is critical prices may increase based on tech transfer aspect. So in all rationale sense, we should use MDL knowledge we gained and use it forward..

Unless there is a much better benefit in terms of price in say L&T yard or HSL which warrants selection of Type 216 and associated benefits..

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Probably you are correct..
But Type 216 is not cheap

See here
A $20 billion offer by the parent company to deliver 12 Type 216-based submarines built in Germany, Australia or a mix of both, had been based on RAN’s anticipated top-level requirements, Dr. John White, chairman of the Melbourne-based subsidiary TKMS Australia (TKMSA), clarified to the Senate Economics References Committee in July.
Australia's New Submarines: Run Silent, Run German? | The National Interest Blog

Now thats 12 sub order..
Assume its the same price which of course cant be as bcz P75I is 6 now versus 12 being offered for SEA 1000 competition
Still thats 20Bn/12 = USD 1.67 Bn

For us its almost reaching USD 10 Bn. On top extras including weapons will cost more..

Thats why its a tough choice...

See this also

DCNS isn't yet talking costs or delivery schedule. However each nuclear Barracuda costs around its3 billion Euros, so Australia's non-nuclear boat would be cheaper.
French firm says it can build subs in Aust - Yahoo7 Finance Australia

Assuming even a 20% cost reduction the prices come down to approx Euro1.04 Bn or USD 1.1 Bn.. More in line with other package needs...

Since the choice of local Indian yard is critical prices may increase based on tech transfer aspect. So in all rationale sense, we should use MDL knowledge we gained and use it forward..

Unless there is a much better benefit in terms of price in say L&T yard or HSL which warrants selection of Type 216 and associated benefits..

Oh, thanks for bringing this up. Actually I wasn't aware about the 20billion figure for Australia.

Actually I was basing my point on the deal of 2 Type218s for about 1.4 Billion dollars of Singapore which included everything except TOT.
DCNS didn't said anything specific on the type of submarine but their offer was near 2 billion for 3 subs.
Near comparable.

A fair competition might lead a Russian win ( given the LADA fulfills the basics ) then. But then it would be pointless as the foremost aim of getting western tech in Indian shipyards would be lost.

The French given that they are making at present the SSNs, no doubt whatever they offer will be top notch.

But my concern is MDL, I don't want P75I too going to a government entity. I really want the private sector to grab this.

Also comes question about the schedule, as this is near confirm that our planners have proposed a Indian SSK design, not a big one but ~1600 tons and its, work may also most likely will land into MDL.

Another thing is the AIP, I preferred the German one because of their better fuel cell AIPs compared to the noisier MESMA. But if we are planning to stick to our own AIP then the French one will also find me equally happy .

 

[#hydra#]

It's for Navy, the best performing department of Armed Forces in terms of acquisition and indigineous products.

Its mod & dassault together played this drama,iaf doesn't have much role in its. Same thing going to happen in p75I also,if we choose french compony again.

 

[Bad Guy]

Gonna have around 30 subs by 2030.
How long it gonna take to get 60?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Gonna have around 30 subs by 2030.
How long it gonna take to get 60?

We need around ~2 SSBNs at nuclear patrol any time, so a fleet of 8 SSBNs required.
We will have 4 carriers and 4 assault ships, 2 of them will be active any given time, need at least 1 SSN for them anytime, so will need a fleet of 12 SSNs.

For patrols , costal and high sea and escorting task forces and destroyer squadrons, we will need 16 sub active at any given time. For that we will need a fleet of 32 SSKs.

So total 32+12+8=52.... in ideal situation.

And considering the present speed, I will not like to predict a timeline.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Type 216s coming ......

Of course. Here is the math.

3 new Kilo class sub along with 9 old kilos which is to be upgraded in India. And major service base for kilos established in India.

6 new Type P75I along with old 4. Which will be upgraded too . Major production line established in India and upgrades to be carried out in India. Full ToT. What's more favouring Germans are their willingness to transfer non magnetic hull technology. Which is currently not been offered for 214. This came out as a bonus points for our PMs diplomacy.

3 more Scorpene Submarines as follow on for P75 program. Along with 6 currently under construction. . . . Makes 9 + 10 + 12... In total 31 SSK. Keeping in mind one Kilo will have to be put to rest in near future. Rest will be replaced with Indegenous SSK program and follow on P75I and P75 in the future. Rest will be SSN. 1+1 leased from Russia and 8 to 10 made in India. Derived from Arihant and infused technologies of INS Chakra ... SSBN will be off the table for patrolling our waters and goes into secret position ready to fire nuclear weapons out of nowhere.

In short Indian Under water fleet will be very modern and very large among Asian subcontinent.

We need around ~2 SSBNs at nuclear patrol any time, so a fleet of 8 SSBNs required.
We will have 4 carriers and 4 assault ships, 2 of them will be active any given time, need at least 1 SSN for them anytime, so will need a fleet of 12 SSNs.

For patrols , costal and high sea and escorting task forces and destroyer squadrons, we will need 16 sub active at any given time. For that we will need a fleet of 32 SSKs.

So total 32+12+8=52.... in ideal situation.

And considering the present speed, I will not like to predict a timeline.

How you got 32 SSK? It's 31?

Well i have said this

View attachment 294690

India signs accord with France to purchase 36 Rafale | Page 3


The technology of Barracuda is suppose to be used in our SSNs.. So P75I essentially is a precursor and a conventional version testing modules of such hi end tech that essentially goes into SSN project.

I said before and i repeat, The German tech is good no doubt but DCNS bid with experience of a Barracuda (nuclear propulsion) adds a big advantage along with silent propulsion techniques and acoustic signature reduction which are very superior

These crown jewels which were offered to Australia if its given to India, they emerge the strongest contenders..

But its going to be costly owing to the fact that backdeal may include many things for the black project saddled into P75I costs..

Not likely brother. It's very well be German boats

 

[Ankit Kumar]

How you got 32 SSK? It's 31?

Lol, no friend I was not counting how many we will have, rather how many we will need.

We need ~8 active SSKs carrying out patrols on our both fronts , means 16 subs ... And considering that 50% of SSKs are on average are available for patrol going by the global average I came upon the number 32, double of 16.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Well i have said this

View attachment 294690

India signs accord with France to purchase 36 Rafale | Page 3


The technology of Barracuda is suppose to be used in our SSNs.. So P75I essentially is a precursor and a conventional version testing modules of such hi end tech that essentially goes into SSN project.

I said before and i repeat, The German tech is good no doubt but DCNS bid with experience of a Barracuda (nuclear propulsion) adds a big advantage along with silent propulsion techniques and acoustic signature reduction which are very superior

These crown jewels which were offered to Australia if its given to India, they emerge the strongest contenders..

But its going to be costly owing to the fact that backdeal may include many things for the black project saddled into P75I costs..

Even Kilos have the reputation of the silent subs among the NATO's. Why cant we incorporate Kilos tech's into our SSN?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Even Kilos have the reputation of the silent subs among the NATO's. Why cant we incorporate Kilos tech's into our SSN?

We are doing that not only in SSN but also in SSBN projects..

There has beena long known murmur among defnse circles that a KIlo sub modernisation was delayed by keeping everything open in order for L&T to learn all the intricacies of Hull manufacturing and using a similar approach for our SSBn project Arihant..

In fact an american analyst H I sutton even claims Arihant has too many similarities from Kilo sub. I am not saying thats the truth but i dont have any picture of Arihant which shows there true shape now and what is where other than diagrams at least in public domain.. So i cannot comment on the veracity of this article..

See here
+++
Arihant is the first of a class of ballistic missile submarines for the Indian Navy. Undoubtedly built with extensive Russian design assistance, she is all the same an indigenous product incorporating many Indian systems and of course Indian ballistic missiles. In fact the use of Russian submarine design assistance and nuclear power-plant design assistance was something of a risk reduction exercise.

India has experience of operating nuclear submarines but has never built one until now. The Indian Navy leased a Project-670CHARLIE-I class SSGN from 1987 to 1991 and currently leases a Project-971I Improved-AKULA class SSN from Russia. The prioritization of SSBNs over SSNs is natural and mirrors all nations who have developed nuclear submarines to date. It is particularly similar to France who joined the nuclear club slightly later than US, USSR and UK and so consequently at a time when SSBNs were already the norm and went straight for an SSBN without building a simpler SSN first. SSNs did not join the French Navy until eight years after the first SSBN. India has strong military ties France and Germany for submarine building, but Russia won out when it came to assisting India in her indigenous SSBN program. It's not the first time one country has helped another in this endeavour; the US Navy provided assistance to the Royal Navy with Polaris, and the USSR gave assistance to China (that back fired!). But in the modern context this level of assistance is unparalleled.

Observations:
From the couple of decent photographs of the boat with both show the starboard quarter (front right), we can deduce that the forward section of the hull is based directly upon the Russian KILO Class diesel attack submarine. India operates 9 Soviet builtProject-877EKM KILO as the Sindhughosh Class. The upper sonar casing and torpedo tube arrangement look to be identical. The sail is also essentially similar although necessarily raised slightly because the casing gets deeper as it goes aft to accommodate the main missile silos. The forward hydroplanes are remounted on the sail rather than on the forward casing, which also entails minor rearrangements, but overall the sail can be said to be the same hat of the KILO. It features an open bridge at the top, a bad-weather bridge with windows and a sonar array in the forward part of the sail. The distance from the bow to the sail is also the same as on he KILO, another telling observation.

So the forward hull is essentially that of the KILO design. There are six torpedo tubes which have to be reloaded through the top two from a platform which extends out of the forward hull. The torpedo room will be on the upper deck immediately behind the torpedo tubes and in front of the sail. Following the KILO layout, the top two tubes are likely configured for wire guided torpedoes (e.g. TEST-71ME-NK) and the lower four for self-guiding rounds (e.g. 53-65K). The lower tubes are reloaded using a fast automated reloading system. Eighteen torpedoes can be carried in total, although patrols probably occur with fewer. Although conceivably possible, it is unlikely that Arihant is equipped to fire KLUB cruise missiles or other exotic weapons through her torpedo tubes. As a nuclear deterrent she would not be utilised to lunch conventional cruise missile attacks during a war and would only carry torpedoes as a means of self defense.

Beneath the torpedo tubes is a large sonar dome designed for a circular sonar such as the CIM-400E "Rubicon-M" (SHARK TEETH) fitted the Sindhughosh Class. Behind this the main pressure hull starts, which is divided onto three floors. Like other Russian designs the KILO is a double-hull design which means the pressure hull is encased in an outer hull. This allows the reinforcing frames to be on the outside of the pressure hull. Beneath the sail is the control room.

Pocket boomer
Arihant is about 30% longer than the KILO with a reported length of 110m. The reason is that there are two additional sections inserted behind the sail, the first being the missile section for Submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBNs). It has to be at least 11m from keel to the top of the casing to accommodate the 10m long ballistic missiles. The depth of the missiles necessitates the hunchback appearance which is characteristic to SSBNs. This section is also likely to include maintenance space and ballast tanks to take in water to compensate for the weight of the missiles when they are fired. Behind this is the second additional section containing the reactor. This section requires control stations and heavy lead radiation shielding so it is probably a 'plug in' hull section with only a tunnel connecting the forward compartments with the extreme aft just like on Western nuclear submarines. We can also guess that this section would have a large water intake mounted beside it to allow the secondary cooling loop to operate without pumps within certain performance envelopes. Behind it will be the steam turbine, electric motors and auxiliary diesels. The tail of the boat is open to speculation but most depictions show a conventional cruciform tail rather than the KILO's distinctive rudder arrangement which has a large fin underneath and no vertical fin on top. I have illustrated the aft fin configuration on relatively recent Russian designs including a towed array tube built in to the upper fin. The result is a very long boat which is much bigger than the diesel-electric attack submarines in Indian service, and similar in length to the much heavier Akula Class boat loaned from Russia:

Compared to other SSBNs however she is considerably smaller and thus more lightly armed. The standard fit is either:

• 12 x K-15 Sagarika SLBNs (700km range, 1,400km with reduced warhead) < Nuclear capable Or/
• 4 x K-4 SLBNs (3,500km range) < Assumed nuclear equipped

Note that the K-15 is a smallish single warhead missile which is viewed as an interim solution. Because of its small diameter three tubes can be fitted within the space for a single K-4 missile tube, hence the 12 missiles in total. Individually the K-15 is loosely equivalent to the first generation Soviet SLBNs except that it is far more compact and can be fired from underwater making it a much better system (as you'd expect fifty years on!). But it is far less potent than other modern SLBNs in service. It does not have MIRVs (multiple independent re-entry vehicles) so measured in number of warheads the gap to other SLBNs is even greater, which is where the K-4 SLBN comes in to the equation. This is similar in size and range to other SLBNs and can apparently carry MIRVs. The range makes a big deal; with the K-15 missile Arihant would have to be somewhere in the Arabian Sea in order to threaten Karachi, well within the reach of the Pakistani Navy. Whereas with the K-4 it could be somewhere in the Bay of Benghal which is almost the Indian Navy's private sea.

Only four can be carried however, which again is many fewer than other active SSBNs:

• Type-092 Class, China 12 x JL-1A SLBNs(2,500km range) (Considered obsolete)
• Type-094 Class, China 12 x JL-2 SLBNs(8 to 14,000km range)
• Triomphant Class, France 16 x M51 SLBNs(8 to 10,000km range)
• Borei Class, Russia 16 x RSM-56 Bulava SLBNs (10,000km range)
• DELTA-III Class, Russia 16 x SS-N-18 STINGRAY SLBNs (6,500km range)
• DELTA-IV Class, Russia 16 x SS-N-23 SKIFF SLBNs (9,300km)
• Vanguard Class, UK 16 x Trident-II D5 SLBNs (7,000 to 12,000km range)
• Typhoon Class, Russia 20 x RSM-56 Bulava SLBNs (10,000km range)
• Ohio Class, USA 24 x Trident-II D5 SLBNs (7,000 to 12,000km range) All range stats require a pinch of salt

Maybe the Indian Navy has done something very clever indeed by sacrificing the number of missiles carried. There is a school of thought that nuclear wars can be won, and that the country who lobs the most missiles wins. There is another school of thought that nuclear war is mad and cannot be won, but in order to ensure this is true a deterrence must be sufficiently weighty to convince a crazy enemy that the war is unwinnable. By either school of thought Arihant is at a disadvantage. But Arihant's deterrent isn't pointed at USA or Russia, it is pointed at Pakistan and to an extent China and possibly any middle eastern countries who might tool-up in the near future. The bulk of India's nuclear deterrent is land based (as is China's and Pakistan's) so the Arihant is merely a diversification of capabilities which supplements the main force. In addition to this, nuclear bombs are expensive and slow to produce so, combined with the need to test technologies it is economical to only fit four tubes. More than enough to guarantee the destruction of several cities.

The reduction in war load also allowed the use of the smaller KILO class hull which again was a risk reduction. The question will be how many more Arihants will enter service? At least four will be required to maintain a constant at-sea vigilance. But if India wants to switch it up to 'full capability' SSBNs they'll need to start building a completely new design with all the costs and delays that is likely to entail.

Original artwork
CLICK IMAGE FOR HI-RESOLUTION.
Weapons: Large missile: K-4, Smaller missile: K-15, Upper torpedo: TEST-71ME-NK, Lower torpedo: 53-65K.

H I Sutton - Covert Shores
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