German Chancellor Angela Merkel's historical China map flap

[Grand Historian]

Its normal thing here. Van Lang of Hung Kings is not related dirctly to Yue or Viets ( or Vượt in ancient Vietnamese word), in the time of Van Lang Kingdom, there is country of Mon/Khmer speaking people. Li Bi called his Kingdom as Van Xuan, or Van Xoan in ancient Vietnamese word, it got the meaning "country for ever".

In the 5th century, VietKinh people was not separated from Mon/Muong people in langustic, Vietkinh people was called as Keo (Geao) people (Kẻ Chợ) by other neighbor Thai/Katay people, or Jiao Zhi in Chinese.

Van Lang didn't exist provide the archaeological proof or you are just fabricating history once again.

Van Xuan means Eternal Spring.
No, in the 5th century Vietnamese spoke an extinct branch of Middle Southwestern Chinese later Proto Vietic/Muong language was adopted leading to a mixture of these two branches.

For more information consult the works of John Phan.

You still don't address why Ly Bi didn't use Yue,Van Lang or Xich Quy when he named his kingdom.

 

[BoQ77]

Ly Bon, also called Ly Ban, Li Bi, or Ly Bi, reign name Li Nam-Viet De Bon, or Li Nam De (born , Giao-chao province, northern Vietnam—died 549, Laos), founder of the first Vietnamese dynasty mentioned in extant historical records, and Vietnam’s first great champion of independence.
Ly Bon led a successful revolt against the Chinese governor of Giao-chao province in 542 and captured the capital at Long Bien. Two years later he proclaimed himself emperor and assumed his royal name. The earliest surviving Vietnamese historical records (13th–14th century) indicate that he controlled a vast territory, covering most of what is now northern and central Vietnam, and his authority was recognized throughout the Red River delta in the north and southward to the frontiers of the Champa kingdom
-----
Chinese official history book all called Ly Nam Viet De as Giao-chao local resident, he's the 11th generation of Baiyue originated lasted 5 centuries living in Giao-chao

As the Nam Viet De ( Nan Yue Emperor ), before he fades, he passed his power to Trieu Quang Phuc ( or Trieu Viet Vuong - the Yue King ), another Giao-chao local resident.

Van Xuan means 10,000 spring time for his country

---------------
Tháng 1 năm Nhâm Tuất (542), Lý Bí dấy binh khởi nghĩa với sự hưởng ứng của hào kiệt khắp nơi, trong đó có những nhân vật nổi tiếng như: cha con Triệu Túc và Triệu Quang Phục, Tinh Thiều, Phạm Tu… Thứ sử Giao Châu là Tiên Tư không dám chống cự mà chạy trốn về Trung Quốc. Chỉ trong khoảng thời gian ngắn chưa đầy 3 tháng, Lý Bí đã chiếm được hầu hết các quận, huyện và thành Long Biên (Bắc Ninh). Được tin Long Biên thất thủ, vua Lương lập tức hạ lệnh cho quân phản công chiếm lại nhưng đều bị Lý Bí đánh cho tan tác.

Tháng 4 năm Quý Dậu (năm 543), vua Lương sai thứ sử Việt Châu là Trần Hầu, thứ sử La Châu là Ninh Cư, thứ sử An Châu là Lý Trí, thứ sử Ái Châu là Nguyễn Hán, thứ sử Giao Châu là Tôn Quýnh, thứ sử Tân Châu là Lư Tử Hùng từ 2 phía Bắc, Nam Giao Châu cùng tiến đánh nghĩa quân Lý Bí. Đạo quân của Lý Bí đón đánh quân Lương ở bán đảo Hợp Phố, phía cực bắc Châu Giao. Nay thuộc tỉnh Quảng Đông

( April 543, Liang Emperor send his army to counter-attack Ly Bi. Ly Bi force is waiting to fight Liang army in northtip of Jiaozhou land at Hepu peninsula, nowaday Guangdong )

Chùa Trấn Quốc do Lý Nam Đế cho xây dựng. Ảnh: Hoàng Chí Hùng.

( Liang army died 7-8/10, survivors hide away, the generals retreated to Guangzhou and was ordered to suicide kill )
Quân giặc 10 phần chết tới 7, 8 phần, những kẻ sống sót đều chạy trốn, Tôn Quýnh, Lư Tử Hùng dẫn tàn binh quay về Quảng Châu. Lương Vũ Đế xuống chiếu bắt Tôn Quýnh, Lư Tử Hùng phải tự tử.

Tháng 5 năm 543, lợi dụng việc Lý Bí đang đối phó với quân Lương trên biên giới phía Bắc, vua Lâm Ấp Rudravarma 1 ở phía Nam đưa quân ra đánh phá Châu Đức. Lý Bí phải điều Đại tướng Phạm Tu mang binh mã vào dẹp quân Lâm Ấp ở huyện Cửu Đức, vua Lâm Ấp kéo quân bỏ chạy về nước.

Lý Bí kiểm soát từ đồng bằng Bắc Bộ đến vùng Đức Châu (Hà Tĩnh) ở phía Nam và vùng bán đảo Hợp Phố ở phía Bắc.

Tháng 2 năm Giáp Tý (544), Lý Bí xưng Hoàng đế lấy hiệu là Lý Nam Đế, đặt tên nước là Vạn Xuân, cho xây dựng kinh đô ở vùng cửa sông Tô Lịch (Hà Nội) và cho dựng điện Vạn Thọ làm nơi vua quan họp bàn việc nước.

Lý Bí (Lý Nam Đế, Việt Đế) đặt tên nước là Vạn Xuân, tự xưng là Hoàng đế, định niên hiệu, lập một triều đình riêng ngang hàng với nước lớn phương Bắc là người sáng lập ra nhà Tiền Lý (544-602).

Sau khi lên ngôi, Lý Nam Đế cho xây dựng một ngôi chùa lớn ở phường Yên Hoa (Yên Phụ) lấy tên là chùa Khai Quốc. Chùa Khai Quốc (tiền thân của chùa Trấn Quốc ngày nay) hiện nằm ở Hồ Tây, Hà Nội.

Lý nam Đế ở ngôi được 5 năm ( từ 544 – 548) thì mất.

 

[EastSea]

Nanyue was a vassal state of Han dynasty furthermore Vietnamese had a separate kingdom Au Lac until Zhao Tuo annexed them.
What I don't understand is why Vietnamese claim Nanyue as Vietnamese not only were the bulk of the population made up of Tai Kadai and Qin Chinese,Zhao Tuo did not even pay homage to the fictitious Hung Kings.

Qin general Đồ Thư and his army invaded to territory of Van lang of Hungkings in Canton and Quangxi first. It was collapsing of Van Lang kingdom. An Duong Vuong and Aulac was the rest of territory of Van Lang. Later on it was annexed by Zhao Tuo to Nan Yue Guo, when he declared Independence from Han Dynasty.

The Cantonese of 2,000 years ago are not the same as the Cantonese of today,for the umpteenth's time Cantonese don't view themeselves as Baiyue and they never will.

Yes, in 2,000 year ago Cantonese were no Han, they were residents in the country Van Lang of Hungkings.

Today, 40% of population living in Guangdong is not shared paternal blood line with Han Chinese in North China. Why Cantonese don't claim that they were Bai Yue ? The same question I can ask you: why you don't see yourself as native Min Yue in case of your ancestor is native Fujian_ren ? No evidence or family tree didn't stated that they came from Zhongyuan !

Stop regurgitating nonsense,the bondservants and slaves of the early Manchus consisted of Han,Koreans and other Jurchens.

Qing expanded in the name of Imperial China look at the treaties,passports even late era currency and you see they use Da Qing as equivalent to Zhong Guo.

Don't forget that there is Man Qing dynasty in China history book. The word "Man" mean :Manchurian.

Van Xuan means Eternal Spring.
No, in the 5th century Vietnamese spoke an extinct branch of Middle Southwestern Chinese later Proto Vietic/Muong language was adopted leading to a mixture of these two branches.

Van Xuan is "ten thousand spring" in English, it got same meaning of "ten thousand year" or in this concept it got the meaning "for ever". There is Van a loan word from Chinese under time domination of China in our history.

An Nam Chi Luoc doesn't mention the Hung Kings and Van Lang which you hold dear.

An Nam chi luoc is record book for different thing: people, diplomacy letters, culture events and etc..., including history event, but there is not fully a history book. The author could neglected many thing in our history. The history book Dai Viet Su Luoc stated clearly about Van Lang Empire

You still don't address why Ly Bi didn't use Yue,Van Lang or Xich Quy when he named his kingdom.

Why chinese Mao don't named his country like XIA, SHANG, ZHOU and etc.

 

[Grand Historian]

Qin general Đồ Thư and his army invaded to territory of Van lang of Hungkings in Canton and Quangxi first. It was collapsing of Van Lang kingdom. An Duong Vuong and Aulac was the rest of territory of Van Lang. Later on it was annexed by Zhao Tuo to Nan Yue Guo, when he declared Independence from Han Dynasty.

Van Lang and Hung kings don't exist I don't care how many times you quote the Dai Viet su ky Toan Thu or Linh Nam Chich Quai there is archaeological evidence that supports this and it is not recognized by international scholars.

Yes, in 2,000 year ago Cantonese were no Han, they were residents in the country Van Lang of Hungkings.

Today, 40% of population living in Guangdong is not shared paternal blood line with Han Chinese in North China. Why Cantonese don't claim that they were Bai Yue ? The same question I can ask you: why you don't see yourself as native Min Yue in case of your ancestor is native Fujian_ren ? No evidence or family tree didn't stated that they came from Zhongyuan !

Again read my explanation above you conveniently repeat the same banal tirade without providing any proof whatsoever.

You don't seem to realize that Y haplogroups and their subclades are shared between different populations it is ridiculous to label a haplogroup as Baiyue or Chinese.

What is Baiyue DNA we don't even have any genetic studies of that time period.

You haven't even read my genealogical records,don't assume what you don't know.

Why do you care so much if Southern Han Chinese have Baiyue ancestry or not you are Vietnamese not Chinese.

Don't forget that there is Man Qing dynasty in China history book. The word "Man" mean :Manchurian.

Qing nobility viewed themselves as Chinese they were the one to propagate the multicultural aspect of the Qing.

An Nam chi luoc is record book for different thing: people, diplomacy letters, culture events and etc..., including history event, but there is not fully a history book. The author could neglected many thing in our history. The history book Dai Viet Su Luoc stated clearly about Van Lang Empire

Don't make excuses for your cherry picking you simply use evidence that serves your agenda.

I already explained to you why Van Lang is a fabrication look at my previous posts.

Why chinese Mao don't named his country like XIA, SHANG, ZHOU and etc.

Why would Mao name PRC after extinct dynasties?

You don't seem to realize that Zhong Guo was used throughout history while Yue wasn't always used by Vietnamese.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

Hmmm, so according to some people's logic, the UK (Sachsen-Coburg-Gothar), the Netherlands (Oranien-Nassau), Denmark (Glücksburg) are still ruled by Germans, Spain and Sweden by French because their ruling dynasties are either German or French.

 

[bolo]

Yes, Vietnam mean "Vượt về Nam" or "Nam Tiến". This word created by Nguyễn Bỉnh Khiêm in the 16th century, when he advised Warloard Nguyễn Hoàng go to Sourhern Đại Việt.

Nguyễn Bỉnh Khiêm (1491 – 1585) is our fortune teller.

This is the Vietnamese equivalent of the Nostradamus quatrains. It is suggestive, believed to predict future events, and very mysterious. This poem includes the line, "Vietnam is being created" (Vietnamese:Việt Nam khởi tổ xây nền), an early use of the word "Vietnam".

So why Ho Chi Minh acepted the name Vietnam for our country 1945.



Its animal jungle rule. I don't think chinese people is animal.

as humanbeing, china have to obey rules of international laws, what china has been signed, like UNCLOS. Its how to humankind in the world work for peace.

You don't get it or you in denial? International laws were written by strongest countries to contain weak countries. Live with it and most importantly know your damn role.

 

[EastSea]

Van Lang and Hung kings don't exist I don't care how many times you quote the Dai Viet su ky Toan Thu or Linh Nam Chich Quai there is archaeological evidence that supports this and it is not recognized by international scholars.

Recently, in Ping Gua prefecture 平果县 near by NanNing city, huge amount of archaeological evidences found. There are evidence for that Luo Yue people created writing characters is presented. It dated back to 4,000 year ago.

You can check it in internet in China.

When you can read Vietnamese, you could refer here

Chữ Việt Cổ Ở Nam Dương Tử. - Diễn đàn Lý học Đông phương
Phát hiện chữ Việt Cổ ở Quảng Tây | CHỮ VIỆT CỔ LẠC VIỆT

Why would Mao name PRC after extinct dynasties?

You don't seem to realize that Zhong Guo was used throughout history while Yue wasn't always used by Vietnamese.

Your early question is nonsense and your answer above is funny, bcz the Zhong Guo is idea of feudalism. In fack china ís in East Asia, not in the middle of Asia.

 

[Snomannen]

《大義覺迷錄》：在逆賊等之意，徒謂本朝以滿洲之君，入為中國之主，妄生此疆彼界之私，遂故為訕謗詆譏之說耳。不知本朝之為滿洲，猶中國之有籍貫。舜為東夷之人，文王為西夷之人，曾何損於聖德乎？

The Empire of Qing clearly told you traitors/ ignorant fools (逆賊) that Manchu (滿洲) is a part of China/ the Middleland (中國). Who do you think you are to represent Manchurian themselves.

Also the term "Man Qing" is never an official name of Qing Dynasty, there is no official history book in China would have ever use this term either~

Moreover, the US and UK are two independent nations nowadays, yet NanYue and Han Dynasty were both ancient countries of China~

 

[BoQ77]

Please pause history discuss here, ok ?

Angela Merkel gave Xi the map to show their nowaday point of view, "pls follow the modern international law"

 

[Snomannen]

Please pause history discuss here, ok ?

Angela Merkel gave Xi the map to show their nowaday point of view, "pls follow the modern international law"

How can "showing an ancient map of part of China in earlier Qing" (when the so-called international law didn't even existed) sends the message of "pls follow the international law".
I can never understand you people's logic.

 

[Viet]

Recently, in Ping Gua prefecture 平果县 near by NanNing city, huge amount of archaeological evidences found. There are evidence for that Luo Yue people created writing characters is presented. It dated back to 4,000 year ago.

You can check it in internet in China.

When you can read Vietnamese, you could refer here

Chữ Việt Cổ Ở Nam Dương Tử. - Diễn đàn Lý học Đông phương
Phát hiện chữ Việt Cổ ở Quảng Tây | CHỮ VIỆT CỔ LẠC VIỆT



Your early question is nonsense and your answer above is funny, bcz the Zhong Guo is idea of feudalism. In fack china ís in East Asia, not in the middle of Asia.

how is the relation between Lac Viet and Nam Viet?
how is the connection to Hung King?

 

[Borr]

Nanyue was a vassal state of Han dynasty furthermore Vietnamese had a separate kingdom Au Lac until Zhao Tuo annexed them.

Not quite. Nanyue was never a vassal. That area didn't have a big state when the Qin forces conquered them. As the military commander, Zhao Tuo used his forces to set up his own reign when the Qin Dynasty collapsed.

The Nanyue's ruling class and military were the Qin troops and their descendants. Zhao Tuo made a deal with the Han Court and got his Kingdom title recognized. Then he expanded, into nowadays Viet at some point.

The local Yue nobility must have their own agenda (to replace the Qin rulers) when they support for conflict with the Han Empire, but got themselves annihilated, too, when the Han annexed the whole kingdom.

Nanyue was a vassal state of Han dynasty furthermore Vietnamese had a separate kingdom Au Lac until Zhao Tuo annexed them..

 

[EastSea]

how is the relation between Lac Viet and Nam Viet?
how is the connection to Hung King?

I quote here for you reference:

"Kết luận
Có thể nhận định như sau:
- Vua Hùng là người Việt cư trú ở vùng Sơn Đông, nơi có Núi Thái, Sông Nguồn, một trong bốn trung tâm của người Việt trên địa bàn Trung Hoa cổ.
- Vua Hùng về Việt Nam và lên ngôi khoảng 2600 năm TCN, tương đương với thời điểm họ Hiên Viên lập vương triều Hoàng đế. Niên đại này không xa với niên đại năm Nhâm Tuất 2879 trong truyền thuyết, là năm Kinh Dương Vương lên ngôi. Điều này cho thấy, truyền thuyết gần với sự thật lịch sử.
Phân trích trên chứng tỏ, từ Sơn Vi qua Hòa Bình, Phùng Nguyên, dân cư trên đất Việt Nam là người Việt cổ, thuộc nhóm loại hình Australoid. Sang thời Đồ Đồng, dân cư Việt Nam là người Việt hiện đại, chủng Mongoloid phương Nam. Sự chuyển hóa này do người Việt chủng Mongoloid phương Nam từ vùng Ngũ Lĩnh di cư xuống, hòa huyết với người tại chỗ trong thời gian lâu dài. Hoàn toàn không có chuyện người Mongoloid nhập cư lớn, chiếm đất, tiêu diệt, xua đuổi người bản địa Nguyên Đông Dương như có ý kiến đề xuất trước đây.
Như vậy, cả về dân cư, cả về văn hóa trên đất Việt Nam là liên tục hơn 30.000 năm qua. Điều này cũng chứng tỏ, không hề có chuyện người Việt bị Hán hóa trong thời kỳ Bắc thuộc. Sự thật là, hơn 2000 năm, trước khi quân của Lộ Bác Đức tiến vào Nam Việt, người Việt và người Hoa Hạ đã cùng chủng Mongoloid phương Nam."

NanYue people was Sinezed and Lac Viet and Au Viet are not.

Read more.
TÌM GỐC GÁC VÀ NIÊN ĐẠI HÙNG VƯƠNG | Lý Học Đông Phương

You could visit the website: Trang chủ | Lý Học Đông Phương

Note that I have my own opinion, I don't agree with some statement on website which are not true.

 

[Viet]

Not quite. Nanyue was never a vassal. That area didn't have a big state when the Qin forces conquered them. As the military commander, Zhao Tuo used his forces to set up his own reign when the Qin Dynasty collapsed.

The Nanyue's ruling class and military were the Qin troops and their descendants. Zhao Tuo made a deal with the Han Court and got his Kingdom title recognized. Then he expanded, into nowadays Viet at some point.

The local Yue nobility must have their own agenda (to replace the Qin rulers) when they support for conflict with the Han Empire, but got themselves annihilated, too, when the Han annexed the whole kingdom.

yes and no: Nanyue had been a vassal of the Han, but this title was just superficial. the country was independent, and never accepted orders from the Han emperors. Zhao Tuo promoted himself to emperor, a concept clearly derived from the Yue/Viet people that strived an equal relationship to Han China.

you may be right. at one point, the Yue nobility intrigued and went too far by rejecting further paying tributes. The Han used the provocation as pretext and annexed Nayue Kingdom at the end of the day.

 

[Rechoice]

You don't get it or you in denial? International laws were written by strongest countries to contain weak countries. Live with it and most importantly know your damn role.

Your troll is stupied and funny.

International law made by people in the world included superpowesr to keep peace for humankind. When china is strong, US, Japan and Russia is stronger. They will divide China in pierce if China becoming mad man and don't respect international law what China has been signed.

Then NanYue people can regain your independence from China and then Vietnamese and Cantonse could sit down and debate about: Who is the Luo Yue (Lac Viet) and Who is OuYue (Au Viet) people.