Geopolitics of ASEAN+ region

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

1) Please study what is “Indochina confederation”, or “Indochina federation”.
.

Listen to what those psychosis ranting:


This guy perhaps realized they are now only a history-less bunch after abolish using Chinese, so would suggest include Chinese as their official language and put Chinese before Vietnamese.

Also this: Federation Republic of Vietcamlao (CamLaoViet?): An Introduction

It is very clear that Vietnam is actually the biggest threat to ASEAN, and perhaps the biggest threat to world peace.

2) Study what is ASEAN. ASEAN was built to against perceived Soviet-Chinese communist expansion, with Vietnam as Soviet-China’s pawn in the front-line. ASEAN admitted Viet in an attempt to accommodate and then soften its false ambition.

Uniting of Cambodia-Vietnam-Laos ago was aimed to against the French colonists. It is a precious heritage of uniting to expel invaders.

ASEAN initially formed to combat the spread of communist China, with the help of America. Be country nearest to China, Vietnam was the first to bear the expansionist of China. ASEAN has seen the consequences of which Vietnam has encountered, and they did not want to fall into similar circumstances.

ASEAN should draw the lesson that all ASEAN countries must be solidarity to prevent the interference of China's rotten hand, stop chinese do things like they were done in Cambodia in the 1970s.

Future arises from present, and present comes from past. Without studying past, you cannot get the present, never the future.

To research the history of Vietnam, I introduce two excerpts:

The history of Vietnam is one of the longest continuous histories in the world, with the oldest archaeological findings showing that people have been living there as far back as over a half million years ago.[1] Ancient Vietnam was home to some of the world's earliest civilizations, with a cultural history of over 20,000 years - making them one of the world's first peoples who practiced agriculture.[2][3] The Red River valley forms a natural geographic and economic unit, bounded to the north and west by mountains and jungles, to the east by the sea and to the south by the Red River Delta. The needs to have a single authority to prevent floods of the Red River, cooperation in constructing hydraulic systems, trade exchange, and fight against invaders, led to the creation of the first Vietnamese states in 2879 BC.[4] The first truly influential part of history in Vietnam occurred during the Bronze Age, when the Đông Sơn culture was in Vietnam, dramatically advancing their level of civilization. Vietnam's peculiar geography made it a difficult country to attack, which is why Vietnam under Hùng Vương was for so long an independent and self-contained state. The Âns and Qins were among the earliest foreign aggressions of Vietnam, but the ancient Vietnamese regained control of their country soon after their invasions.

Vietnamese Navy was built very early in the 10th century. The largest battles recorded were three naval battles (all three are called Battle of Bạch Đằng): Ngô Quyền against the Chinese Southern Han forces in 938 (killed over 100,000 and captured a thousands Chinese sailors, killed Chinese Prince Liu Hongcao);[1] Lê Hoàn against Song Dynasty in 981; and Trần Quốc Tuấn against Yuan Dynasty (Mongol) in 1288 (killed over 80,000 Yuan Mongol sailors, destroyed more than 400 Yuan ships, killed Sogetu, and captured Yuan Admiral Omar).[2]
In 1077, the Vietnamese Navy fought the Battle of Cầu River against the Chinese Song Dynasty forces. This was the final battle China's Song Dynasty would fight on Vietnamese land or waters. The battle lasted for several months, and ended with the victory of the Vietnamese Navy and the loss of many Song's (Chinese) sailors. Modern researchers assess this as the biggest win and most fierce battle since the Battle of Bạch Đằng in 938 against China's invasions. This victory demonstrated the successful tactics of war and active defense of the famous Admiral Lý Thường Kiệt who faced a naval force several times larger than his own.[3] The Chinese Song Dynasty lost a total of 80,000 soldiers/sailors and 5,19 million ounces of gold, including all costs of the war.[4]
One of the greatest victories in Vietnamese Naval history was the Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút, during which Nguyễn Huệ (Emperor Quang Trung) defeated the Siamese (Thai) naval force. The battle occurred in present-day Tiền Giang Province on January 19, 1785. Nguyễn Huệ's forces completely destroyed over 50,000 Siamese sailors and 300 warships.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vietnam

Past and present both demonstrate the danger of uneducated Vietnam which is an ungrateful Ingrate; and in the future, people of all walks in ASEAN and China, perhaps in Bangladesh and in the world at large, should teach those Vietnamese that are illiterate of their history and ill-educated.

You are showing your own uneducated.

Good news is that thousands of Vietnamese students are attending Chinese Universities to learn knowledge and hopefully they will realized what is China and what is Vietnam.

No, they are going to the US instead China

United States Hosts 46,000 Students from ASEAN, Bringing $1.3 Billion to Economy | ASEAN Matters for America

 

[EastSea]

we just look down upon worms like viets. I just remember viets were salves of Chinese, French, Americans, Japanese before. And it will be slaves of the big powers again because it's the destiny of monkeys-play toll of human beings.

Your are idiot worm 南蛮 from southern China, but very stupid. Your mentality is equivalent to monkey just repeat what Han chinese talk directly on you that you are 南蛮.
you're living in Thailand same as refugees, Thai people look down at you. You don't have home land because Han chinese considered that you are worms in your native land.
We have been beating all invaders: France, US and chinese 1979, all ran away from Vietnam.

 

[Anonymous user]

Perhaps only Singapore see China as their mother, because about 74% of Singaporeans people are ethnic Han.
Instead, we called china as Tau-khua.

Mate with due respect I will appreciate you not bringing Singapore into this. We are third generation Chinese loyal to Singapore our country. This is an issue between countries and not race.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Mate with due respect I will appreciate you not bringing Singapore into this. We are third generation Chinese loyal to Singapore our country. This is an issue between countries and not race.

Bro, this concept is derived from ahfatzia at # 35.
VN isn't a child of "she" but I would not object if ahfatzia thinks his country is so.

China never wants to be a part of ASEAN other than an active participant and as an observer. She has big stakes in the well beings of ASEAN membership nations and she wants to be sure they are thriving. For one, individually, they are her close neighbors/trading partners, and together ASEAN could be her most devoted ally and vice versa in the future. Secondly most of her Diasporas living among these countries and is very natural for her to wish the best for them.

Because of all the above reasons, there shouldn't be any doubts about her sincerity. Don't take me wrong by saying it's almost like China is like a mother who genuinely cares about her children.

BTW: Roybot return after get married?

 

[joyamalik87]

How would this ASEAN+ materialize? What are the challenges? How would an economic union transform into a sovereign entity?

you want to call it as china republic... We indians are not interested.....

 

[ahfatzia]

Mate with due respect I will appreciate you not bringing Singapore into this. We are third generation Chinese loyal to Singapore our country. This is an issue between countries and not race.

Bro she's a known spinster and has a problem of comprehensions, knowingly or unknowingly, interpret things out of context and put his own meaning instead.

 

[Anonymous user]

Delete... No point

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Bro she's a known spinster and has a problem of comprehensions, knowingly or unknowingly, interpret things out of context and put his own meaning instead.

How should I understand your idea at # 35 http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/180755-geopolitics-asean-region-3.html#post3001891

How would you explain when a member has used of your concept "mother- children" to attack other country? (see #139)
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/180755-geopolitics-asean-region-10.html#post3025693

VN is an ASEAN member countries, and I cannot accept the concept of "mother-children" between countries, whether any insinuating saying.

 

[kalu_miah]

economically, bonzi and nipponzi have long designed their economies in ways that will make them integrate with china, not with viets or filipinos, and they don't have a choice in that regard. so if they have to choose between ASEAN+2 or northeast asian 3, they will go for an economic union in northeast asia.

militarily, an alliance between nipponzi and viets will stretch their line of communication so long and so exposed that it has no actual viability.

there is a reason i suspected you were a troll: in your very post in the thread you suggested the exclusion of china, which makes everything else you said completely impractical. and i knew you said it not to encourage a meaningful discussion of the geopolitics in east asia but to excite hate against china (as you did in the thread about the gulf area). you fanatically supported viets and pan-turkics in your grandly-named "geopolitics" threads just to hate on russia and china. the anglo-americans have the same malice against russia and china, but at least they think of real things to harm us. you are a petty mind incapable of any real harm but just want to troll.

you are an unintelligent troll, kalu_miah!

North East Asian economic community has some future:
Northeast Asia Economic Forum - About

Also EAC or ASEAN+3 is quite active:
East Asian Community - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 3 economies of Japan, South Korea and China are already highly integrated, but I am afraid that there is little future possibility for any security and strategic alliance between Japan and South Korea with China and also little hope for even a loose political integration, for which ASEAN+ is more appropriate for both Japan and South Korea. China and India are both largest unions of nations in their own right, no country will go with them at this juncture of world history in my opinion, if they have any alternate options. This is because they do not want to be dominated by a billion plus Han Chinese or a billion plus Hindu Indians.

I have no hate for anyone, including Russia or China. Some Indians think I hate Indians, but that is not true either, only they misunderstand me. Both Russia and China have excellent future prospects, which I explore in this post:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...rld-order-road-map-future-14.html#post3030716

Good discussions going. Hello_10 has got it correct. China will defeat the US in 30-50 years time frame. That is my projection also, just look at the joke of a democracy we have in the US, Republican Scott Walker won in Wisconsin, voted in by a clueless 56% majority, stupid is stupid does. And "peaceful" rise is not just essential for China but for entire Asia, as any conflict will be costly and a setback for all regional states, India, Eurasia+, ASEAN+ or GCC+, the beneficiary will be US/West.

The real problem folks is that the US/West have a racial superiority complex and some idiots like the Japanese and Koreans buying into this nonsense and copy pasting similar ideas for their own race. They simply have a dogmatic belief that USA/West can never become a secondary power, not calling the shots of the world. The only way to defeat this nonsense is a complete and comprehensive economic and military defeat and that will happen in 30-50 years in my opinion. But it will happen, only if Asian powers know how to use USA/West, but not get used and manipulated by USA/West and thus avoid a conflict between Asian powers in Asian land-mass.

But for this to happen, China has to have a mature and extremely far-sighted vision. The regional groups I mentioned can be one vehicle to reduce USA/Western influence in these states, make them semi-independent or perhaps fully independent, which will allow them to make rational decisions based on their own interest rather than under influence of outsiders who want to divide and rule in this Asian space. China for its own interest need to support the formation of these unions, so these regional unions once fully integrated remain allied or at least friendly towards China.

Whichever power will embrace the new "Unite and Share" paradigm rather than the old and obsolete "divide and rule", I believe will become the new predominant power. China has a shot at it, but its not written in stone, the USA/West can recover, reform and make a come back, so can any of the other regional groups, if they take the right course of actions.

Indian strategists need to understand these regional dynamics and then make correct foreign policy decisions. Turning down USA offer was a good choice, so was the move to apply for SCO membership. India, just like China, also must not feel nervous about the regional unions in the Asian space, in its neighborhood such as ASEAN+ and Eurasia+ and the ones a little far like GCC+. Even though they may make smaller states more powerful and less vulnerable to manipulation, the biggest benefit China and India can derive from these regional unions, is that it will stabilize unstable regimes and states and allow the opening up of formerly blocked geographic routes and make entire Asia a very integrated region, which is a good for all Asians.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...-us-plans-counter-china-14.html#ixzz1xuikF0Ss

Having said that, it is possible that ASEAN+ would not materialize, there is too much strong nationalism in these nations for them to form a really effective union, one Japanese poster said in another related thread (world order). I don't disagree with that view, but once people gain the ability to think more deeply, I believe they will reach the same conclusions as I have reached, as we already see from reactions of people from ASEAN+ region in this forum. But even if ASEAN+ does not materialize, it is a good thread to explore the geopolitics of this region, regardless of whether ASEAN+ materializes or not. And I will continue to support small nations against bigger nations who are victims, as we ourselves are, so we understand their pain well.

 

[kalu_miah]

Racism is a huge problem for humanity. It is a natural human condition. But our human challenge is to face it bravely and make efforts to reduce racism and its harmful effects among ourselves. So I would request people to refrain from making racial slurs.

If you have not noticed, currently there has been a flare up of an old problem of Rohingya ethnic minority in Myanmar. Those who are interested you can look at the details here:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/183835-myanmar-bangladesh-relations.html

There are also few other threads on this issue in Bangladesh Defence section.

Once you have familiarized with this issue, we can discuss it here in this thread, as Human Rights for ethnic minorities who are fighting insurgencies with ethnic Bamar/Burman majority dominated Myanmar army and govt. is a concern for Thailand, China, India and Bangladesh, near their border regions. Myanmar has a border with Laos, may be our Vietnamese friends and brothers can provide some information on that border region:

Burma Insurgency
Nationalia - Election year in Burma but little prospect of change for minorities
Asia Times Online :: True stripes revealed in Myanmar
http://www.kaladanpress.org/v3/inde...hip-politics&catid=116:kaladan-news&Itemid=28

 

[Yukio]

Following the Asean tune

TESTED TIMES: Member states must stay united with a common goal and identity

(Activists protesting in front of the Chinese consulate in Manila demanding the withdrawal of Chinese ships from Scarborough Shoal in the South China Sea recently. Since the Scarborough Shoal incident, pressure has been put on Asean to present a common front. Reuters pic)


FOR a month now, the waters of the South China Sea have been warmed up somewhat, thanks to the arrival of American, Chinese and Filipino battleships around the area known as Scarborough Shoal.
What began as a simple dispute over fishing rights has now escalated into something decidedly more sinister, and the rest of Asean should take note that developments such as these do not bode well for the economic and political future of the region as a whole.

Since the 1970s, Asean has tried its best to steer away from the choppy waters of the Cold War conflict, navigating precariously between the Eastern and Western blocs in order to maintain both the neutrality of the region and its safety as well. We forget, time and again, that apart from the European Union, Asean has been the only other multilateral international body that has prevented the return of wars between nation-states, and this is no mean feat when we look at the occurrences of conflict elsewhere in the world.

Asean, however, has to evolve and it undoubtedly shall in the decades to come. In the coming years, Asean nations will face new challenges that include how to deal with the rising demands and expectations of better educated youth, urbanisation, distribution of equity, ensuring social security and others. But Asean's success lies in its ability to work together as a coherent assembly of nations that take into account the needs of the region as a whole.

Since the Scarborough Shoal incident, some pressure has been put on Asean to stand together and to present a common front, so to speak, to China. Some of the more nationalist leaders of the Philippines have suggested that they have been "abandoned" or "orphaned" by their Asean counterparts, and have raised the banner of national pride instead. To be sure, Scarborough Shoal is indeed closer to the Philippines than it is to China, and a glance at the map will support that observation. But what is at issue here is not geography or the claims of history but rather the need for Asean countries to remain in the Asean fold and to recognise that a single state cannot go it alone and then expect the others to follow suit: that would be a case of having your cake and eating it, too.

Lest we be taken in by the notion that anti-China sentiments are rife in the Philippines, we ought to remember that in the recent past, numerous Philippine politicians have made gracious overtures to Beijing: former president Gloria Macapagal Arroyo was the one who witnessed the China-funded project to build a National Broadband Network in the country, with the assistance of China's Zhong Xing Telecommunications Corporation. Another project (that failed to take off) backed by both governments was the Northern Rail project. Relations between the two countries have, in fact, been cordial since the normalisation of relations with Beijing in 1975.


Read more: Following the Asean tune - Columnist - New Straits Times Following the Asean tune - Columnist - New Straits Times

 

[NiceGuy]

.

Since the Scarborough Shoal incident, some pressure has been put on Asean to stand together and to present a common front, so to speak, to China. Some of the more nationalist leaders of the Philippines have suggested that they have been "abandoned" or "orphaned" by their Asean counterparts, and have raised the banner of national pride instead. To be sure, Scarborough Shoal is indeed closer to the Philippines than it is to China, and a glance at the map will support that observation. But what is at issue here is not geography or the claims of history but rather the need for Asean countries to remain in the Asean fold and to recognise that a single state cannot go it alone and then expect the others to follow suit: that would be a case of having your cake and eating it, too.

When VN-Malaysia made a joint submission to solve the dispute in SCS(east sea) among ASEAN nations, Phillipne rejected it. now, she has to agree ASEAN's solution for the dispute in SCS(east sea) first, so that ASEAN can has a stronger support to Phil after that.

No one have "abandoned" or "orphaned" Phil, just bcz ASEAN need more collaboration from Phil to solve the dispute among ASEAN first.

On 6 May 2009 Malaysia and Vietnam made a joint submission to the CLCS for a portion of the continental shelf of the two States into the South China Sea.[88]The area of the extended continental shelf is between the 200 nm limits of the two States measured from the baselines along the coasts of Vietnam and the East Malaysian states of Sarawak and Sabah. The area does not infringe on existing bilateral continental shelf agreements of the two States with Indonesia. The submission advises the Commission that of the existence of unresolved boundary disputes in the defined area of the submission, and that to the extent possible, the submission would not prejudice matters relating to the delimitation of boundaries in the area[89].
On 7 May 2009 Vietnam made a Submission to the CLCS[90]in the area north of its joint submission with Malaysia. The northern boundary in this submission is an equidistance line measured from the baselines of Vietnam and China. Vietnam stated in its submission that it is of the view that the area of the continental shelf which is the subject of this submission is not subject to any overlap or dispute.[91]
Notes Verbale of Philippines on Joint Submission of Malaysia and Vietnam and on Submission of Vietnam
On 4 August 2009 the Philippines submitted separate Notes Verbale to the UN Secretary-General in response to the Joint Submission of Malaysia and Vietnam[92]and on the Submission of Vietnam[93]. The Note to the Joint Submission states that the extended continental shelf claim by Malaysia and Vietnam lays claim on areas that are disputed because they overlap with that of the Philippines and “because of the controversy arising from the territorial claims on some of the islands in the area including North Borneo.” The latter objection is a reference to the historical claim of the Philippines to what is now the East Malaysian State of Sabah, which was formerly known as North Borneo.
The note of the Philippines further pointed out that given the existence of maritime disputes, the Philippines requests that under paragraph 1(5) of Annex I of the rules of procedure of the Commission, “in cases where a land or maritime dispute exists, the Commission shall not consider and qualify a submission may by any of the States concerned in the dispute.” The note then requested the Commission to refrain from considering the Joint Submission unless and until after the parties have discussed and resolved their disputes.
One interesting point about the Note Verbale of the Philippines is that it failed to object to or even mention the fact that the maps included in the Joint Submission of Malaysia and Vietnam appear to include a 200 nm limit of the Philippines measured from their archipelagic baselines.
The Note on the Submission of Vietnam is similar in content. It states that Vietnam’s submission lays claim on areas that are disputed because they overlap with those of the Philippines, and it requests the Commission to refrain from considering the Submission unless and until after the parties have discussed and resolved their disputes.
Notes Verbale of Malaysia and Vietnam in Response to Philippines
Malaysia’s reply[94]to the Note of the Philippines on the Joint Submission stated that the joint submission was made without prejudice to questions of delimitation of maritime boundaries and without prejudice to the position of States parties to a land or maritime dispute. Malaysia further pointed out that it had informed the Philippines of its position prior to the submission of the Joint Submission, and that both the Governments of the Vietnam and Malaysia had proposed to the Philippines that it consider joining the Joint Submission.
Vietnam replied to the Notes of the Philippines[95]by stating that its submissions have been made without prejudice to matters relating to the delimitation of boundaries as well as the positions of States which are parties to land or maritime disputes. Vietnam also took the opportunity to reaffirm its consistent position that it has indisputable sovereignty over the Hoang Sa (Paracels) and Troung Sa (Spratlys) archipelagoes
CLCS submissions and claims in the South China Sea, by Robert C. Beckman & Tara Davenport

 

[kalu_miah]

Sister thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/213542-asean-defence-bloc.html

 

[EastSea]

Sister thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/213542-asean-defence-bloc.html

You are first.

 

[ShadowFaux]

Wrong thread