Generals in Pakistan Push for Shake-Up of Government

[karan.1970]

Actually you misrepresent the example.

1) He said Dude see this gun, I don't want to take this out, so don't steal everybody else's wallets. If Zardari does the job he's supposed to do, there won't be any need for a coup.

No difference unless the guy with the gun is the appointed sheriff of the town which Kiyani is not. Robin hoods today only exist in bollywood movies like "Once upon a time in Mumbai"

What would you suppose happen in India if the elected government says we'll kill 100 Million Indians to control the population? At some point when things get out of hand, there has to be some sort of check and balance.

By the people/judiciary. Not by military acting on their own..The key to democracy is the power to people to reverse their decisions. Once a gun backed regime comes to power (whether headed by a general or a puppet), that power to people goes away along with the democracy..

He has said that he doesn't want to be in power, he didn't assume Musharraf's presidency. He had plenty of opportunity to coup, especially during the long march when the people were marching towards Islamabad.

People were marching against a dictator and wouldnt have ever allowed another one. Neither would have USA.

btw, how many promises Musharraf broke while he was in power?

These promises are no different than the immortal " I will still respect you the next morning"

To be a dictator you need to dictate something that would be active governance. He commented upon the lack of governance. To be a dictator you have to subvert democracy, he only asked Zardari to return to the constitution - when asked by Zardari himself.

Zardari didnt ask him to rate the current govt. If I read the papers right, it was to quash the rumors about a military takeover. The fact that such a meeting needed to take place points towards the subversion of the democratic process.

Yes but who implements the judiciary's orders? The judiciary said "Open the swiss cases, NRO is illegal" Now Zardari has to implement that order and he says "Nope, don't feel like it". The judiciary can only pass judgement, the implementation has to be done by the government.

Law enforcement bodies. Impeachment... Supreme court suo moto directions.. there are a million ways of checks and balances if people are behind it. Like they were against Musharraf..

Coming back to a milder version of the 100 million people killed argument, similarly what happens when still Zardari does something undemocratic and says nope I'll do as I please. Which he has done, by disobeying the supreme court.

Supreme court can get him arrested.. Isnt it?? Not very familiar with Pakistani constitution, but there is a provision to that recourse in India and Pakistani system is not all that different..

I don't prefer the return of the military, even when PAkistan is at the brink of total collapse. But I'm defending Kayani as it is unfair to label him as a dictator for this incident.

Again. I am not going off on the individual and I believe Kayani is one of the most professional military man Pakistan has seen in some time. But the affiliation of Pakistan to gravitate towards military as a saviour not only from external threats but also from bad governance and corruption is extremely misplaced in my opinion

 

[Mansoor A Qureshi]

I think Karan, you need to view this from the perspective that this govt has been such a total failure on so many fronts - and it's been in power for over 2.5 years.

As the professor in the article touches on, economically we're a mess. Constant blackouts, food prices 50% more than what they were in 2008, rampant corruption, total and utter revulsion towards Zardari, there's so much that this govt represents which is seen as wrong - and not in line with the tenets of democracy.

The problem is they refuse to admit their mistakes (when Transparency International said corruption had increased under this govt, they called it a conspiracy).

For God's sake if reports are emerging that the PM and 25 of his Ministers haven't paid Income Tax over the past few years, and there's more focus on building memorials for Benazir (at a cost of $11million), then it's a 'democracy' that we can do without.

Agreed and even Pak and Pakistani nation (Lols@Nation) dont have time as well to experiment with the democracy.
Democracy not for Pakistan

 

[forcetrip]

If PPP does not have it in them to rule, then let people throw them out in the elections.. Where is the role on military in this?

I will not and cannot agree to let these thugs rule another day. This has gone far from corruption to open cleaning of accounts in some departments. Another 2.5 years of them siphoning off flood money is not in the best interest of this country or the so called democracy you are crying about. I suppose you have to first teach children how to handle matches before giving them a flame thrower to use. Same goes for democracy.. educate the 80% of the people who choose these criminals for the short term benefit of a plate of biryani what their vote really means. Then we can consider the topic for the implementation of democracy.

 

[Mansoor A Qureshi]

I think Pakistani democracy needs revision at the grass-roots level. Too much is top-down. A system more like the American and less like the British would serve Pakistan better because there would be more empowerment at the local level to throw crooks out - a necessity in a state with poor rule-of-law.

My question is, are individual Pakistanis really motivated to start such a revolution, rather than just grouse about it? From the British experience at government responsibility and democracy reform (Wilkes, 1770s) such change begins in districts controlled by the middle-class, not the very rich or very poor. And it isn't easy - not at first, anyway. Which Pakistanis at PDF are willing to drop their keyboards to step forward?

A Million dollar question
Everyone wants heaven but no one interested to die, wont help the cause

 

[SSGPA1]

I hope one day we will stop blaming Pakistan Army!!

Majority of Pakistanis, including this khaksar, would love the see both Fed and Punjab govt. vanished!

These paid lobbyists and so called journos are trying to give Zardari and Nawaz Sharif cover by blaming the army, lets not fall for this trap!!

 

[naumananjum]

who says it as jamhooryat
.
its still a dectator ship but without uniform

 

[GUNNER]

According to the press and Pakistani officials familiar with the conversation, the general demanded that they dismiss at least some ministers in the oversized 60-member cabinet, many of whom face corruption charges.

Prime Minister Gilani has announced to abolish at least ten ministries by the end of this year !

 

[Tayyab1796]

Prime Minister Gilani has announced to abolish at least ten ministries by the end of this year !

this is a joke of manificent proportions ... lol... I don't take Gilani seriously now ... he was rightly termed 'a joker' by Mushy

 

[deckingraj]

I will not and cannot agree to let these thugs rule another day. This has gone far from corruption to open cleaning of accounts in some departments. Another 2.5 years of them siphoning off flood money is not in the best interest of this country or the so called democracy you are crying about. I suppose you have to first teach children how to handle matches before giving them a flame thrower to use. Same goes for democracy.. educate the 80% of the people who choose these criminals for the short term benefit of a plate of biryani what their vote really means. Then we can consider the topic for the implementation of democracy.

In other words are you proposing that Pakistan should transform into dictatorship from democracy?? Do you know the implications???? Or are you proposing a mid-term election to change the current regime??? if yes then may i know what are your alternatives???

Anyways may i ask in last 62-63 years of independence how many years Pak have been ruled by Military and how many years by civilian govt??? India has been more or less democratic for entire period of her independence apart from one blot....Even now we are not a perfect democracy however we are surely a matured democracy....So my friend democracy is the only way...You need to give it time...Every time you cannot run for dictatorship and unless and until you don't put in effort you will never become a mature democratic set-up....

 

[DGMO]

So my friend democracy is the only way...You need to give it time...Every time you cannot run for dictatorship and unless and until you don't put in effort you will never become a mature democratic set-up....

Trust me, we want it to succeed. I'm sure the board members are unanimous in that thought.

But we give it time, and then look what we get. No one forgets the lost decade of the 90's, the corruption, the war between PPP and PML-N. Who was stopping that? The Army? It was a mess. The dancing on the streets when Musharraf took over said what? They were upset with democracy being trampled? I don't think so.

So now this govt has had 2.5 years. Has it shown itself to be responsible and democratic? It keeps making decisions which in any other democratic polity would be seen as counter to the very premise. By appointing the head of the NAB who's previously run twice in elections on PPP tickets, they're rubbishing transparency, accountability and the rule of law. Values they shout about all too readily.

The basic fact is that looting and plundering is the goal. The opposition are no better. Nawaz has endless corruption allegations against him, a highly dubious track record, and is obsessed with Musharraf, not poverty alleviation. The fake degrees case is an embarrassment of the highest order which continues to drag through the HEC.

So we have a so-called democratic set-up, which shouts about nothing but democracy, as if this will in itself end the miseries of the people. It won't. People want electricity, inflation tackled, accountability and the rule of law implemented. Those actions define a democratic order, not just bleating about it all the time, or your imaginary sacrifices you use as emotional blackmail. We can't and will not tolerate a country called Benaziristan, no matter how much you try to force her down our throat.

Given the sheer misrule, the inability to tackle the problems of the common man, this govt is cutting its own throat. And cutting its own throat means handing over reigns to the Army (or increasing their input in governance), however reluctant they may be.

 

[JanjaWeed]

I hope one day we will stop blaming Pakistan Army!!

Majority of Pakistanis, including this khaksar, would love the see both Fed and Punjab govt. vanished!

These paid lobbyists and so called journos are trying to give Zardari and Nawaz Sharif cover by blaming the army, lets not fall for this trap!!

i know it's none of my business.. just a personal view.. problem here is that everyone is blaming your army for running the democracy over. fact of the matter is, the so called guardians of your democracy are the one who are running to mummy (read army) when they are either in opposition or in trouble. they have made a habit of relying on army for each & every disaster. be it political or natural. even the general public relies on the army to fulfil their needs rather than the elected government. obviously army feels obliged to do the needful whenever there is a crisis of whichever nature in your country. only a change of attitude towards governance by all involved can bring about the desired channge!!

 

[DGMO]

fact of the matter is, the so called guardians of your democracy are the one who are running to mummy (read army) when they are either in opposition or in trouble. they have made a habit of relying on army for each & every disaster. be it political or natural.

Good point, and one that shouldn't be overlooked. Even in the Chief Justice stand-off in May 2009, Kayani was personally involved as a mediator. Can you imagine the head of the army being involved in a civilian stand-off in any other democracy?!

The Army is seen as the 'guardian of the nation'. The democratic forces haven't been able to assume that position, and are seen as leeches and rotten in the main. A perception that will take time to eradicate itself, but only if we see the clean governance we all desire. No chance of that it seems. That's not to say the Army are angels. However, given their 'heroic' status, they receive the respect that our 'democratic' leaders can only dream of.

The Army controls foreign policy by and large, therefore, given its highly entrenched role in society, the wars we've fought etc, it's a difficult task to detach it altogether from the democratic parties, structure and process.

The democratic set-up is established, the media is powerful, the judiciary is highly charged....so you have those pillars on one side, very powerful forces in a democracy, and the Army on the other side. Another hugely powerful force in Pakistan. Both can't cancel each other out, and tread on each others' toes.

We as a society function as a hybrid between democracy and military led govts. It's very much interwoven, and that's the way it'll be for the foreseeable future.

 

[deckingraj]

Trust me, we want it to succeed. I'm sure the board members are unanimous in that thought.

I hope what you are saying is correct, however how will it succeed if you have no hope, no faith and above all no patience for it to succeed??? Remember good leaders cannot be grown into farms, they evolve out of a democratic set-up, for that to happen you need to have democracy, no???

But we give it time, and then look what we get. No one forgets the lost decade of the 90's, the corruption, the war between PPP and PML-N. Who was stopping that? The Army? It was a mess. The dancing on the streets when Musharraf took over said what? They were upset with democracy being trampled? I don't think so.

So now this govt has had 2.5 years. Has it shown itself to be responsible and democratic? It keeps making decisions which in any other democratic polity would be seen as counter to the very premise. By appointing the head of the NAB who's previously run twice in elections on PPP tickets, they're rubbishing transparency, accountability and the rule of law. Values they shout about all too readily.

The basic fact is that looting and plundering is the goal. The opposition are no better. Nawaz has endless corruption allegations against him, a highly dubious track record, and is obsessed with Musharraf, not poverty alleviation. The fake degrees case is an embarrassment of the highest order which continues to drag through the HEC.

So we have a so-called democratic set-up, which shouts about nothing but democracy, as if this will in itself end the miseries of the people. It won't. People want electricity, inflation tackled, accountability and the rule of law implemented. Those actions define a democratic order, not just bleating about it all the time, or your imaginary sacrifices you use as emotional blackmail. We can't and will not tolerate a country called Benaziristan, no matter how much you try to force her down our throat.

No offense but it the Army who is responsible for this sorry state of democracy in Pakistan...Generals after Generals never allowed democratic set-up to flourish...Mind it democratic set-up is slow but the right one...Army can at max give you short bursts of growth but that's about it....and the only reason this happen because real power is with army and army brings in stability which attracts investments....Just to give you an example - Zardari can be corrupt to core but he cannot steal electricity from the plants...Musharraf was Pak ruler for 9 years so i am assuming there must have been lot of investment in infrastructure, no??? However in 2.5 years demands could not have increase mani-folds, so the right question to ask is whether fault lies with Zardari or Musharraf??? See i understand that people are not happy with givt and that is rightly so, but we need to understand Generals are good leaders in their own domain, there is no guarantee that they will be good leaders in civil role...A mature Democracy has lot of checks and balances which dictatorship don't....IMHO zia era has brought lot of bad for Pak then anything else...God forbids if yet another Zia came then what???

Given the sheer misrule, the inability to tackle the problems of the common man, this govt is cutting its own throat. And cutting its own throat means handing over reigns to the Army (or increasing their input in governance), however reluctant they may be.

You may be right, however the best bet for Pakistan is to stick to democracy....Let the current govt. finish its tenure and re-elect a new one...Bring in the change and this will be deterrent for ruling party to deliver or else risk being thrown out...Things will improve only if democracy is allowed to function unhindered....

 

[PakSher]

Internal politics of Pakistan should be discussed with Pakistani members, since this is Pakistan's internal matter. Some members may not like it but that is true. Internal politics of Pakistan is not an issue at the UN that everyone starts discussing it.

 

[deckingraj]

Internal politics of Pakistan should be discussed with Pakistani members, since this is Pakistan's internal matter. Some members may not like it but that is true. Internal politics of Pakistan is not an issue at the UN that everyone starts discussing it.

Don't you think that it is a discussion forum and it is obvious that members share their thoughts on different matters irrespective of their nationalities...This is how we learn from each other, no???