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Game of Thrones fans?

FGS if you wanted battle strategy read the bloody books, those take care of that, Battle of Blackwater, Whispering woods, even Green Fork had that in great detail. In seasons they never took strategy into play. Hell they didnt even show some of the great battles that eventually led to the betrayal of Rob Stark. Grow Up.
AS for this episode, i have mixed feelings. I knew that it was going to be Arya, but not the way it happened. And i was expecting more people to die, especially Bran. I also was expecting it to end there in winterfell, and that was also true. I was also hoping that an old rumor in the books would come into play, about verthimor laying eggs at winterfell, especially as crypts kept coming up. Anyway lets see how it actually ends.
On a sidenote i dont think this is how it will end in books. Thats a different ball game. There i think Daenerys will die or sacrifice herself for any of the two Aegon's (1 is Jon) or whoever might be the prince, in order to kill the night king.


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Read the post before giving ur opinion as the better one. I only criticized the show's writers(who have deviated from the books bcuz they have gone past where the story is in the books) and not George R R Martin. Though he still gives his inputs as to which direction the show is going in...he hasn't had the time to go in depth and be able to control the minute details. Hence it's the show writers who made this episode so unlike how the series had been so far...for the most part.
 
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SPOILERS ALERT in this post.

@Cookie Monster

Thanks for detailed responses; appreciated. Even though I disagree with some of your points but credit where due.

THE NUMBERS GAME

Night King's commanders/officers were about 100 strong when they breached the wall - confirmed in the script of the Episode 7 of Season 7. The undead were about 100,000 strong at this point.

However, by the time the undead reached Winterfell, they could be like 200,000+ strong due to additional kills that were mostly off-screen including the ill-fated House Umber (one of the largest in the North). Above all, the Night King could continue to add to their numbers with his powers which actually happen during the course of the battle. And it wasn't like one man could take like 10 undead down all by himself; in fact, the kill ratio was almost 1:1 (living versus the undead) because the undead wouldn't tire, feel pain, run away and such. In fact, huge quantities of dragon glass is the only reason why the living lasted so long in a major battle against the undead and why some men were able to achieve disproportionate amount of kills with collaboration and tactics.

So yes, the living were essentially f***ed irrespective of how they would choose to fight.

PREPARATION CHALLENGES

Preparations in Winterfell could benefit from additional time. Mining dragon glass and shipping it in huge quantities from the stronghold of Daenerys (Dragonstone) to the stronghold of the House Stark (Winterfell) would require enormous logistics lines (stretching 2700 KM in longevity), and the ships could not reach Winterfell so there's that.

main-qimg-df19f25ad5ff750e449a1e48da77b48c


OBSTACLES - THE NIGHT KING LAUGHS

Irrespective of how many obstacles the living could lay outside the castle and on its walls, the undead were too many to stop. The undead giants were also involved and clearing obstacles on the surface.

Some photos:-

Undead-obstacles-ring.png


A massive ring of fire halting the advances of the undead for a short period.

Undead-breaching-obstacles.png


The undead getting through the obstacles. The look on the face of the living at this point...

Undead-climbing-over-eachother.png


The undead climbing over each other to scale the walls.

Undead-dragon-fire.png


The Night King also intervenes and destroys a large section of the wall for the undead to get through.

THE LIVING HELD THEIR OWN

I would say that the living had amassed a far more powerful and capable force at present in comparison to what was possible back in the days of the First Men and the Children of the Forest, and the living had surprises of their own on top [1]. Winterfell was constructed AFTER the Long Night event, and built in a way to serve as a bastion of resistance and draw attention of the Night King. Even though the dead had ruined much of the castle during the course of the battle, it provided a fighting chance to the living and pockets of well-trained humans continued to offer resistance to the undead in different sections of the structure.

[1] Arya Stark is a Faceless Man and not only an exceptionally skilled fighter but with a tactical mind - in Winterfell, she knew what to do and how to maneuver. This was the ultimate surprise that lay in store for the Night King - on a second thought.

POOR VISIBILITY due to 'stormy conditions' was the greatest issue which prevented the living from fighting effectively besides the Dothraki blunder. These factors created lot of complications for the living unfortunately - their battle-related cohesion and strategies fell apart consequently.

If the Night King wasn't in the picture, Daenerys would have taken over the King's Landing with laughable ease, but she is back to the drawing board now.

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But let us take time to praise the Unsullied and Dothraki - extraordinarily brave factions and lived up to their reputation like always. Even in the face of the overwhelming odds - the likes of which mankind stood little chance against.

The discipline of the Unsullied even in the face of such poor visibility and massive onslaught of the undead - AMAZING by any measure. The northerners were literally a joke in comparison though I cannot blame them. If it weren't for the unsullied, the castle would have fallen much earlier.

Really painful to see such a brilliant army reduced to a mere shadow of its formerself...
 
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One of the most useless characters in the series. It's sad Jamie didn't kill him in episode 1 instead of crippling him. :rofl:

Maybe Jaime is back to finish the job, hes waiting for the right moment. :lol:
 
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SPOILERS ALERT in this post.

@Cookie Monster
Thanks for detailed responses; appreciated. Even though I disagree with some of your points but credit where due.
THE NUMBERS GAME
Night King's commanders/officers were about 100 strong when they breached the wall - confirmed in the script of the Episode 7 of Season 7. The undead were about 100,000 strong at this point.
In that case I'm not sure why they didnt illustrate it as per the script. Throughout the series they have never shown the night king's commanders to be more than 20. He created those from male live human babies that Craster used to sacrifice to him(and I guess through some other means before that)...so if there were hundreds, the show has clearly never made the choice to depict them as such. In each instance where they were shown...like in the episode where they turn craster's son into a white walker, or the attack at hard home, or when the night king attacked the three eyed raven's hideout, or in this last episode...in all these instances they were shown to be few in numbers...less than 20.

However if it says that in the script that the white walkers number in hundreds...I'll take ur word for it. I was wrong then. It's just that it makes no logical sense why the night king didnt show up with all his might to attack winterfell and kill bran...what was so important than killing the three eyes raven that his other white walkers were busy doing...anyways I digress.
However, by the time the undead reached Winterfell, they could be like 200,000+ strong due to additional kills that were mostly off-screen including the ill-fated House Umber (one of the largest in the North). Above all, the Night King could continue to add to their numbers with his powers which actually happen during the course of the battle. And it wasn't like one man could take like 10 undead down all by himself; in fact, the kill ratio was almost 1:1 (living versus the undead) because the undead wouldn't tire, feel pain, run away and such. In fact, huge quantities of dragon glass is the only reason why the living lasted so long in a major battle against the undead and why some men were able to achieve disproportionate amount of kills with collaboration and tactics.
Yeah what i was trying to convey with that...is even if for example the Dothraki could kill 100 undead zombies for each Dothraki that fell...it was still a rather stupid move to charge at them in open field...bcuz the end goal isn't trying to eliminate the undead zombies(that's impossible with their huge numbers, not feeling pain, not tiring, etc. and the night king being able to just raise more). The real battle is to kill the night king and/or his lieutenants. This requires holding off the undead zombie hordes for as long as possible. Hence the best strategy against the horde is the one that gives the living the most time with the least casualties(as in distance + cover + long ranged attacks).
So yes, the living were essentially f***ed irrespective of how they would choose to fight.
They were but there's no point in just giving up...might as well try to fight even if the chances are so very grim and it seems ur fate is sealed...why not try ur luck at that fraction of a chance of survival...bcuz if u die then oh well it would've happened even without a fight...but if u survive then it's amazing and u beat the insurmountable odds.

That's why they needed to fight in a manner and with a strategy that seemed befitting of the characters in charge of the planning. A bunch of those characters present in that room devising the strategies have shown amazing capabilities in terms of battle planning...so when they executed that shit show of charging with Dothraki and getting them killed in a matter of seconds...it seemed so unlike what Jon/Jaime/Tyrion(with added inputs of others) would come up with.
PREPARATION CHALLENGES
Preparations in Winterfell could benefit from additional time. Mining dragon glass and shipping it in huge quantities from the stronghold of Daenerys (Dragonstone) to the stronghold of the House Stark (Winterfell) would require enormous logistics lines (stretching 2700 KM in longevity), and the ships could not reach Winterfell so there's that.
Right...as u will notice when I listed the timeline that winterfell had...from Jon being proclaimed King in the North to him showing up with Dany...I never mentioned anywhere winterfell having prepared defenses with dragon glass included. The dragon glass didnt come into the picture until much later...mainly due to some disagreements between Jon and Dany...and then eventually when he was allowed to mine it...the time it took to mine, ship, and forge it...it pretty much was almost the time of battle.

When I said winterfell(Sansa) had more time to prepare defenses...that means more layers of defenses. In the episode they only had one trench and then the castle...which basically means one defensive layer. Once they are forced to retreat from the outskirts of the castle to behind the walls...that's all they have...once the castle fell all hope was lost. What winterfell ppl(probably with help from Eyrie) in that long time could've done is make more trenches, more traps, and possibly more defensive structures even just something quick and easy like wooden palisade walls. The idea being to slow down the advancing hordes of undead zombies who would otherwise overrun u quite easily. The more they could slow them down, the more they could pummel them with catapults, arrows, dragon fire. The more time they could buy...the more numbers they could reduce. Then of course when dragon glass arrived...that would've provided the additional boost.

In the show during the previous season before Jon left he talked about the northern threat as the biggest threat and that no other wars matter at this point. He told them that he even made peace with wildlings bcuz it was necessary for survival. All the northerners and Sansa know Jon's character and that he is a man of honor who doesn't lie and other such things. So they basically knew that their king was telling the truth and this threat is so severe that it makes battling Cersei look like child's play...and what do they do in his absence...nothing...other than gather and store food I guess and invite ppl from surrounding villages into winterfell. That's only partially logistical side of the war...and pretty much nothing in the way of any strategy or defenses.
OBSTACLES - THE NIGHT KING LAUGHS
Irrespective of how many obstacles the living could lay outside the castle and on its walls, the undead were too many to stop. The undead giants were also involved and clearing obstacles on the surface.
yes of course the obstacles can be cleared. The Night King and the White walkers have been shown putting out fires just by walking through it. The Night King has a dragon with which he took down something as massive as the wall and the undead zombies have been shown to climb, crawl, and dig their way through pretty much anything...so what's ur point? Should they just abandon all sorts of defenses bcuz those defenses can be taken down? Should a knight stop wearing armor just bcuz swords could still thrust through? Defense is defense...just bcuz ur enemy can overcome it doesn't mean one should make the enemy's job easier by not having any defenses in the first place...all due to the reasoning being that it can be overcome. The purpose of these defensive structure isn't to hold back the night king and his army forever...bcuz not even a giant ice wall with magic could do that...the purpose is to slow them down enough to buy some time(as much as possible) for the living to get to and somehow kill the Night King.
THE LIVING HELD THEIR OWN
I would say that the living had amassed a far more powerful and capable force at present in comparison to what was possible back in the days of the First Men and the Children of the Forest, and the living had surprises of their own on top [1]. Winterfell was constructed AFTER the Long Night event, and built in a way to serve as a bastion of resistance and draw attention of the Night King. Even though the dead had ruined much of the castle during the course of the battle, it provided a fighting chance to the living and pockets of well-trained humans continued to offer resistance to the undead in different sections of the structure.

[1] Arya Stark is a Faceless Man and not only an exceptionally skilled fighter but with a tactical mind - in Winterfell, she knew what to do and how to maneuver. This was the ultimate surprise that lay in store for the Night King - on a second thought.
which is why I mentioned in one of my posts before our interaction to another member that it's perfectly fine if this time around the long night ended in one night as opposed to the last one that supposedly took a whole generation. I dont take an issue with the Night King's demise...just the manner in which it was done. Again it was uncharacteristic of the show.

Link of my old post.
Game of Thrones fans?
POOR VISIBILITY due to 'stormy conditions' was the greatest issue which prevented the living from fighting effectively besides the Dothraki blunder. These factors created lot of complications for the living unfortunately - their battle-related cohesion and strategies fell apart consequently.
And that's fine...I dont take an issue with things that are realistic. I take an issue with writers rushing the show in a manner that they end up showing things that seem like those characters wouldn't do. We see Jon going in detail about the battle plan when he was planning his battle against Ramsay...he takes into account intricate details such as the possibility of being flanked and getting caught in a pinsir. Moreover he has witnessed what happened at hardhome and yet he doesn't utter even a disagreement let alone changing the strategy when it comes to having the Dothraki charge on an open field. He has shown to be a capable commander on numerous occasion...he isn't dull when it comes to battle planning...and yet here he went with a strategy that a person would go with only if they have never fought the undead zombie horde before. This is what I mean by uncharacteristic.
If the Night King wasn't in the picture, Daenerys would have taken over the King's Landing with laughable ease, but she is back to the drawing board now.

But let us take time to praise the Unsullied and Dothraki - extraordinarily brave factions and lived up to their reputation like always. Even in the face of the overwhelming odds - the likes of which mankind stood little chance against.

The discipline of the Unsullied even in the face of such poor visibility and massive onslaught of the undead - AMAZING by any measure.
Yes and they could've fared better too in terms of survival had they mostly stayed and fought from behind cover(like castle walls)...
...a majority of those who fought outside the castle(Dothraki and Unsullied) are dead...a majority of survivors are the ones who fought from defensive positions to start with. This is why winterfell ppl(under Sansa) should've built more defensive structures.
The northerners were literally a joke in comparison though I cannot blame them. If it weren't for the unsullied, the castle would have fallen much earlier.
The northerners were supposed to be fierce fighters in battle much like the wildlings...as per their reputation mentioned a few times in the show. However during this time(by the time of this battle), they are a mere shadow of their original self. After Ned Stark's demise, they took heavy casualties in the ensuing civil war under Robb's command. Although Robb won battle after battle, he knew he didnt have the numbers not the resources to win the war. Once Robb was betrayed, the Boltons forced some of the houses to support them...while other houses stayed out of that mess if they could. Then more northerners died fighting for Ramsay Bolton against Stannis and then more died in the battle of the bastards. So after an onslaught of constant war and strife and power shifting hands rather quickly with barely any central command...I wouldn't expect much from the ashes of this once powerful(relatively speaking) northern army that remains.
Really painful to see such a brilliant army reduced to a mere shadow of its formerself...
Yeah I was a fan of the Dothraki(modelled after the mongols) and the Unsullied loosely based on the phalanx. Although I expected as such...these huge numbers of casualties...just not in the manner it happened. Still Daenerys should be able to take the Iron throne. Two dragons against mere mortal humans(unlike the Night King) is still a huge advantage. Cersei does have those powerful ballista, which might take down one of her dragons but still Dany would do massive damage before that happens.

However if I was Dany, i would use the services of Arya. Cersei is already on her list...why bother fighting a huge war with tons of casualties and risk possibly losing...when Arya can practically face change into someone like Euron to get close to Cersei and slit her throat. With her gone Dany can practically take the throne unchallenged. I dont think Jon is the type of person who would go to war and get thousands of ppl killed all so he can sit on the throne...plus he loves Dany...so he would just give it up without much resistance. But I have a feeling that's not how it would play out in the series.
 
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Absolutely, well said.

Danerys is unfortunately back to the drawing board - almost ZERO now. If it weren't for her armies, Winterfell would have fallen much earlier.


John Snow taking out the Night King - a predictable move. I got the impression that the Night King was too strong and capable in melee for John to hang with for long.

Arya Stark taking out the Night King is far from bad actually - when the Red Woman met Arya the first time, the Red Woman pointed out that Arya would bring down 3 notable figures.

Brown eyes
Green eyes
Blue eyes

Agree totally, Jon killing night king was too expected. The night king is not stupid to go one-on-one with one of the best fighters in the world.

With valerian steel in play, the white walkers were actually a weak target. He cleverly ensured throughout the battle to avoid close combat for himself or any of the white walkers. Keeping them well back from the melee.

It is actually perfect, that Arya killed him. She is the one person in the whole world who could take out any 1 target. Night king was being so careful not to engage in combat, just like any commander at war, the only way he could've been reached is by a lone assassin.
 
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I looked at my own reflection for an hour straight, it was so dark.

Csnt believe they killed the night king like that. Also that was a weak use of artillery, should've started the bombardment way before the cavalry charged. The dragons should also have done repeated firing, flypast. Poorly planned and executed.
 
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Looks like this one might cheer up some people here and a lot of critics are not satisfied with this episode just like this one.
 
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No objection about arya killing night king
But Episode 3 was a letdown for me.

Realistic medieval tactics thrown out the window, cavalry charges head on, artillery cleverly placed infront of both the infantry defensive moats. You would imagine guys like Jamie, Jorrah, that dothraki guy, who have fought in countless battles will have some expertise by now.

Plot armour galore. my man Samwell Tarly was fighting wights sitting down, jon gets surrounded by freshly revived wights but doesnt get swamped unlike the unsullied. Davos looks on as arya fights at least a dozen wights.

The knight kings underlings seems kinda useless. Standing around checking out the view. Wights who can tell apart sounds of blood dripping and their own footsteps apparently couldnt hear Arya stabbing a weight it its face and walking to the exit and opening the wooden door.

Honestly felt like an episode of one punch man. Everyones going to die but the hero finishes it off with one blow

Extra footage of Samwell Tarly Fighting against wights

 
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I looked at my own reflection for an hour straight, it was so dark.

Csnt believe they killed the night king like that. Also that was a weak use of artillery, should've started the bombardment way before the cavalry charged. The dragons should also have done repeated firing, flypast. Poorly planned and executed.
Depends upon the quality of print. I have access to a very good print and could see all developments clearly.

The Dothraki conducted a wedge-shape charge towards the advancing undead horde. They most likely took out many but fell apart because the incoming wave was truly massive.

Daenerys pulled off numerous sorties over the undead during the course of battle as soon as the first wave reached the stationary formations of men and began to overwhelm them, she destroyed thousands of undead including some giants with her efforts to say the least.

Point is that nothing the living could do, was enough. Also, the Night King summoned a hurricane over the region - can you imagine the troubles of living in this situation?

Point was to reduce the numbers of the undead to as much extent as possible because if they had swarmed the castle too soon, it was game over.

I would like to see all critics in commanding position over a real army with limited resources, and see what they can pull off against a much larger and capable foe. Seriously now.
 
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Why all these people are fighting over this "Iron Throne"?
 
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Agree totally, Jon killing night king was too expected. The night king is not stupid to go one-on-one with one of the best fighters in the world.

With valerian steel in play, the white walkers were actually a weak target. He cleverly ensured throughout the battle to avoid close combat for himself or any of the white walkers. Keeping them well back from the melee.

It is actually perfect, that Arya killed him. She is the one person in the whole world who could take out any 1 target. Night king was being so careful not to engage in combat, just like any commander at war, the only way he could've been reached is by a lone assassin.

So what clever way are they going to have Arya fight “The Mountain”. Is she going to shape shift into him and they both fight in an arena? When he is near death she pulls off the faces of all the people he has killed and says she is both all his victims and “no one” and then slits his throat in front of the crowd?
 
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It will take a generation to rebuild the Dothraki. Virtually the entire adult male generation was wiped out. Of course there's around 250,000 women and children still in the East and a handful of men who stayed behind who will teach the boys, it will take a while for their sons to come of age and rebuild the greater rider army.

I'm sure the book will be much better so I'm eagerly awaiting its release.

Going forward does anyone else think the armies of Dorne will make an apperance and wreak Cersei and the Golden Company?

latest

:o::o:
 
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