French Defence Minister To Push For Early Decision on Rafale MMRCA

[mehboobkz]

French Defence Minister To Push For Early Decision on Rafale MMRCA


India’s $20 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project for 126 Rafale fighters that is reportedly stalled in the final stages will be the crux of discussions when French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian calls on his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar on his three day visit to New Delhi next week.

There hasn’t been much progress in the stalled MMRCA deal for the last one year. This is the second visit by the French defense minister in the past six months and the first since Manohar Parrikar became the defense minister.

The major disagreement is Dassault’s reluctance to accept responsibility for the 108 aircrafts that are to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) regarding the price and work sharing.


This has been a major reason for stalling the finalization of the project for several months now.

Incidentally, French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius had met External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj and then Defence Minister Arun Jaitley in June and had pushed for early purchase of Rafale combat jet planes.

Fabius had said France hopes that with the new government, which was keen on efficiency, the implementation of the decision will be swift and had expressed confidence of a "positive outcome" to the ongoing negotiations in the deal.

Asserting that there was a difference for "some time" and "too long", Fabius had said that Rafale meets all the requirements of India, including cutting-edge technology and highest quality.

 

[SQ8]

So essentially, The whole delay is with the French saying "We are not responsible if you mess up while making it at home and end up with screens that shut off on their own or aircraft that eject pilots whenever they feel like it".

 

[janon]

So essentially, The whole delay is with the French saying "We are not responsible if you mess up while making it at home and end up with screens that shut off on their own or aircraft that eject pilots whenever they feel like it".

The screen shutting off issue was the fault of the harrdware supplied from Russia. The customized Indian-French display from Thales-Samtel had no such issues.

The pilot ejection thing, I think has not been understood yet, so won't comment.

Anyway reports like these are rehashed reports from a year ago. Yes negotiations were stalled in this point - Dassault did not want to accept faults that HAL may make. But multiple news reports quoting multiple people from both sides have clarified that that issue has been overcome. (I don't know what the final agreement was.)

The current delays are not due to that issue, which has been resolved. Defence blogs rehash old articles when there are no new articles to write.

BTW, please respond to the PM I sent you.

 

[Judge]

So essentially, The whole delay is with the French saying "We are not responsible if you mess up while making it at home and end up with screens that shut off on their own or aircraft that eject pilots whenever they feel like it".

The French are kind of right.
They asked for the freedom to choose an Indian partner for production of Rafale in India. They wanted Reliance to be their Indian manufacturer.

The GoI on the other hand wants HAL to be the production partner.

So French are saying - either you let us choose who we think is best to manufacture the product in India and take full responsibility or you choose and we take limited responsibility for the end result.

 

[Tshering22]

The French are kind of right.
They asked for the freedom to choose an Indian partner for production of Rafale in India. They wanted Reliance to be their Indian manufacturer.

The GoI on the other hand wants HAL to be the production partner.

So French are saying - either you let us choose who we think is best to manufacture the product in India and take full responsibility or you choose and we take limited responsibility for the end result.

Most of contractual messes are from our end almost all the time except a few handful of occasions.

 

[Sam Manekshaw]

So essentially, The whole delay is with the French saying "We are not responsible if you mess up while making it at home and end up with screens that shut off on their own or aircraft that eject pilots whenever they feel like it".

uncalled for.

 

[sancho]

So essentially, The whole delay is with the French saying "We are not responsible

The whole delay is about Dassault complying to RFP offset requirements and them getting less responsibility for the total deal, while MoD and IAF remain rightfully insisting on accountability of the vendor. The issue is not about HAL's capability, but about keeping the vendor commited for the whole production of 126 fighters and not just for the first 18 only. They won't be blamed for problems of HAL, or other Indian partners create, but it must be clear that they do have the responsibility to provide the same quality and production pace till the end. We have similar issues with Sukhoi or BAE and had to take them accountable afterwards, while we try to fix that in this deal beforehand.

 

[sancho]

The French are kind of right.
They asked for the freedom to choose an Indian partner for production of Rafale in India. They wanted Reliance to be their Indian manufacturer.

The GoI on the other hand wants HAL to be the production partner.

So French are saying - either you let us choose who we think is best to manufacture the product in India and take full responsibility or you choose and we take limited responsibility for the end result.

That's not correct, the French can choose any Indian partner for production of parts, while the RFP demands that the final assembly will be at HAL. So parts that will be produced by Reliance, Samtel, BEL and parts that will come from France will be combined in the production line at HAL.
Dassault wants just more workshare provided to Reliance including the assembly of at least parts of the fighter, since that is more beneficial for them and surely more profitable for Reliance too. So we basically have 2 privat companies looking at maximum benefits for them, while we have the MoD and IAF looking at the advantages for India.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

It may that France is now fed-up of the delay and wants things to move on faster.

 

[Cheetah786]

How to Negotiate like an Indian — 7 Rules

Rule #1 – The true price of any item is what you pay — There are no suggested retail prices in India. Nothing is labeled, so it pays to talk with several vendors before making a significant purchase.

Rule # 2 – Try for 70% off — Don’t accept less than 30%

Rule # 3 – Make them show lots of merchandise — If it is a rug merchant, you want the demo guys sweating profusely before you make your first offer. Get the vendor to “invest” in the transaction — emotion, time and energy.

Rule # 4 – Offer on one item at a time – If you plan to buy a couple things DON’T let on at the outset. Act like you intend to buy only one item, if that much. Get the seller to give you prices on each item; play one item off another to show you are looking for the lower price point.

Rule # 5 – Wait for the pad of paper — Every Indian sales person has a pad of paper and a pencil that they pull out when the bargaining gets a bit more serious. Though they write down the price for an item, this is only the starting point – remember rule #2.

Rule # 6 – Say “TOO HIGH”, a lot – Don’t even start negotiating until the salesman has scratched through the initial price and lowered it at least twice. I found that simply staring in silence at the pad of paper for a long time would result in the vendor cutting the price.

Rule # 7 – Imply a bundled purchase — OK, now that the price has been cut 25-30%, ask the salesman what deal he would give you if you buy two items. Expect 5% off. Ask for three items; get another 5%. Then add a very expensive 4th item — one which you do not intend to buy. This will excite the vendor and he will do a bunch of calculations which you will be unable to follow. The price will come down for the expensive item as well as for the other items you intend to buy. Lock those prices and drop the expensive item.

 

[Daedalus]

How to Negotiate like an Indian — 7 Rules

Rule #1 – The true price of any item is what you pay — There are no suggested retail prices in India. Nothing is labeled, so it pays to talk with several vendors before making a significant purchase.

Rule # 2 – Try for 70% off — Don’t accept less than 30%

Rule # 3 – Make them show lots of merchandise — If it is a rug merchant, you want the demo guys sweating profusely before you make your first offer. Get the vendor to “invest” in the transaction — emotion, time and energy.

Rule # 4 – Offer on one item at a time – If you plan to buy a couple things DON’T let on at the outset. Act like you intend to buy only one item, if that much. Get the seller to give you prices on each item; play one item off another to show you are looking for the lower price point.

Rule # 5 – Wait for the pad of paper — Every Indian sales person has a pad of paper and a pencil that they pull out when the bargaining gets a bit more serious. Though they write down the price for an item, this is only the starting point – remember rule #2.

Rule # 6 – Say “TOO HIGH”, a lot – Don’t even start negotiating until the salesman has scratched through the initial price and lowered it at least twice. I found that simply staring in silence at the pad of paper for a long time would result in the vendor cutting the price.

Rule # 7 – Imply a bundled purchase — OK, now that the price has been cut 25-30%, ask the salesman what deal he would give you if you buy two items. Expect 5% off. Ask for three items; get another 5%. Then add a very expensive 4th item — one which you do not intend to buy. This will excite the vendor and he will do a bunch of calculations which you will be unable to follow. The price will come down for the expensive item as well as for the other items you intend to buy. Lock those prices and drop the expensive item.

Bob Compton got it right there. You should forward this to your finance minister.

 

[sancho]

It may that France is now fed-up of the delay and wants things to move on faster.

They can't be fed up if they caused it. We could have fixed the deal by last year without the workshare issue and faster compliance to the offset requirements and well before the elections that logically led to delays too.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

They can't be fed up if they caused it. We could have fixed the deal by last year without the workshare issue and faster compliance to the offset requirements and well before the elections that logically led to delays too.

You are agreeing that delays have occurred form India's side as well yet denial cap is on.

 

[nik22]

How to Negotiate like an Indian — 7 Rules

Rule #1 – The true price of any item is what you pay — There are no suggested retail prices in India. Nothing is labeled, so it pays to talk with several vendors before making a significant purchase.

Rule # 2 – Try for 70% off — Don’t accept less than 30%

Rule # 3 – Make them show lots of merchandise — If it is a rug merchant, you want the demo guys sweating profusely before you make your first offer. Get the vendor to “invest” in the transaction — emotion, time and energy.

Rule # 4 – Offer on one item at a time – If you plan to buy a couple things DON’T let on at the outset. Act like you intend to buy only one item, if that much. Get the seller to give you prices on each item; play one item off another to show you are looking for the lower price point.

Rule # 5 – Wait for the pad of paper — Every Indian sales person has a pad of paper and a pencil that they pull out when the bargaining gets a bit more serious. Though they write down the price for an item, this is only the starting point – remember rule #2.

Rule # 6 – Say “TOO HIGH”, a lot – Don’t even start negotiating until the salesman has scratched through the initial price and lowered it at least twice. I found that simply staring in silence at the pad of paper for a long time would result in the vendor cutting the price.

Rule # 7 – Imply a bundled purchase — OK, now that the price has been cut 25-30%, ask the salesman what deal he would give you if you buy two items. Expect 5% off. Ask for three items; get another 5%. Then add a very expensive 4th item — one which you do not intend to buy. This will excite the vendor and he will do a bunch of calculations which you will be unable to follow. The price will come down for the expensive item as well as for the other items you intend to buy. Lock those prices and drop the expensive item.

on a glance, you got everything wrong!

 

[nik22]

IMHO, Govt is not keen on the deal. They are just buying time.
I read push for FGFA on similar line.