France rules out submarine sale to Pakistan (according to Dunya news).

[Imran Khan]

214 would be an excellent option for Pakistan. But again, where are the funds coming from that's the biggest question.

those whom gone for talks have funds . they are not wasting time for free

 

[syedali73]

Europe doesn't give a sh!t about China's problems with the US/Japan. Europe is very divided on many issues. Europe cares about its economy and needs hard cash. A lot of hard cash.

It does, trust me. Pretty recently France refused to deliver the Mistral ships to Russia; Germany refused to sell Leopards MBTs to KSA. I don't know where this will end but doing business with Europe doesn't look very appealing to me.

 

[DeathInvader]

those whom gone for talks have funds . they are not wasting time for free

I never said you dont have it. I am saying where is it coming from. You see thats a bit of a concern for us given the fact that Pakistan's rise maybe a matter of interest that want to keep India at bay. If some country is granting you funds then it directly becomes an adversary to India. China is already one but it would never grant funds for west subs. RSA then? But Why? Nukes?

 

[flamer84]

That's why I said it's only a matter of time. So what? You think by not selling advanced military hardware you can contain China? Think again. China has other means to attain advanced tech. They have demonstrated this time and time again.

I just told you that they won't sell advanced weapons,no need to get angry or drag me in a pointless debate about China's means of obtaining advanced tech.That's their business,the same for it being successfull or not.

Just stop it with the American whining,Europe doesn't want to sell either.

 

[Dalit]

It does, trust me. Pretty recently France refused to deliver the Mistral ships to Russia; Germany refused to sell Leopards MBTs to KSA. I don't know where this will end but doing business with Europe doesn't look very appealing to me.

They are always being pressured by Uncle Sam, but many European political parties are now seeking more independence vis a vis the US. Also, Russia, KSA and China are different. Very different.

You're right though. Pakistan should invest more in joint ventures with China. Europe is a dead end as far as Pakistan is concerned.

 

[rockstar08]

We don't produce quality ? Please,our stuff isn't Russia's.
Russia and Pakistan aren't the same countries.
Since Pakistan isn't a threat and didn't invade any European country,neither threatened one,why will we stop weapons deliveries to PK ?

buddy tell him you already have a deal with me
one rafale for me , to reach my gf hahahah

 

[waz]

Sir,I don't think Pakistan choose Germany.As in future Pakistan surly will buy Chinese sub, then maintaining three different platform of three different countries cause headache for Pak navy logistically.more ever, there is no guaranty of Germany that in future they will not sanction you.

The deal was nearly signed some years back. It was Pakistan who pulled out due to lack of funds, now the requirement for submarines has come again and there are talks ongoing with Germany. As for maintaing three different submarines, Pakistan has a great deal of experience to fall back on, regarding logistics. The older Agosta 70's will be retired making room for Western subs.
As for sanctions, that's what the Chinese deal is there for.

 

[syedali73]

Not really.This is one EU policy decided by the big players and i know this because my country's officials are lobbying for the embargo to be lifted only to be rebuked time and time again by France/Germany/UK.Why sell your tech for a few billions now only to loose tenfold in the future when they copy it without paying fees ? They kind of learned that lesson by now.

But if they continued on this path, sooner or later they'll lose significant market to China because I guess prospective customers are now getting fed up with all sorts of strings attached to those sales and supplier's fear(s) of technology theft which may be real but apparently blown out of proportion in recent years. China is coming and nothing is going to contain her, Europe should bite this bullet and adjust its strategy with the current realities. Refusing to sell to every other prospective customers is not going to contain China instead present an entire market in a platter to China.

The deal was nearly signed some years back. It was Pakistan who pulled out due to lack of funds...

How stupid. If the funds were not there, why to go into the negotiations in the first place? Pakistanis never cease to disappoint me in the severest way. How we'll convince Germans that we are damn serious this time and we got funds to proceed with the order if finalized?

 

[waz]

@Stephen Cohen @Dalit

No more geopolitics talk please.

 

[flamer84]

edit...just saw @waz post.neverrmind

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Stephen Cohen @Dalit

No more geopolitics talk please.

Thanks for your timely post ; I was about to write a LONG reply to @Dalit
which would have been deleted

 

[Dalit]

Coming back to topic, this was bound to happen. Pakistan should focus on the acquisition Chinese subs. European subs are out of the equation and for obvious reasons.

But if they continued on this path, sooner or later they'll lose significant market to China because I guess prospective customers are now getting fed up with all sorts of strings attached to those sales and supplier's fear(s) of technology theft which may be real but apparently blown out of proportion in recent years. China is coming and nothing is going to contain her, Europe should bite this bullet and adjust its strategy with the current realities. Refusing to sell to every other prospective customers is not going to contain China instead present an entire market in a platter to China.

How stupid. If the funds were not there, why to go into the negotiations in the first place? Pakistanis never cease to disappoint me in the severest way. How we'll convince Germans that we are damn serious this time and we got funds to proceed with the order if finalized?

I agree wholeheartedly. This episode tells us that Pakistan had hope of acquiring French subs. Why else would Pakistan acquire the French? Well, they certainly got their answer now. Germans subs too are out of the question. The Germans will deny the purchase. The writing is on the wall. It's a futile exercise to approach any European nation for military hardware. I understand the urge for advanced military hardware, but Pakistan should rather invest with Chinese ventures. The Chinese can fulfil all requirements.

 

[Imran Khan]

I never said you dont have it. I am saying where is it coming from. You see thats a bit of a concern for us given the fact that Pakistan's rise maybe a matter of interest that want to keep India at bay. If some country is granting you funds then it directly becomes an adversary to India. China is already one but it would never grant funds for west subs. RSA then? But Why? Nukes?

dear sir
its been 834773450734 times we have talked here that a contract not mean go wrrite a check and give hard cash . first of all they recive letter of intrest from companies and then go to finanace ministory after its aproved from defence ministry and sure presedent office . when they got NO OBJECTION from finanace ministry then they go talk for purchase something for example you have to pay 2bn$ in cash but not in one year contract took time and work phase by phase . for example pakistan sign contract of 900mn$ 3 agosta subs with france in 1994 while we have hardly 3bn$ reserves those days . but you can see 3 agostas are here in hands today contract started in 1994 and last sub was inducted in oct2006 its a long long time to pay contract .sure as per contract . PIA purchased 5 Boeing 777- 300ER worth 320mn$ each in 2008 and planes will come in 2015 end now please inform me from where they got funds ? or in 2006 they purchased 9 B777s were not free but paid as per contract in other hands they are in lose every years and gov have to pay it . hold down every time you guys see some news ask same question . pakistanis are getting whatever they need and there is no shortage of funds .

 

[waz]

I am afraid our close ties with China and allegations of letting Chinese to look into Western -supplied military hardwares would prevent us from buying anything advanced enough from the West be it France or Germany. In-fact it appears that through such maneuvers we are being actively persuaded to distance from China and rely totally on the West. Can we really distance ourselves from China in order to procure supposedly 'superior' quality military hardware from the West is a big question. I don't know but if I were to protect my house, I would purchase weapons through a reliable source that would not ding me while I would need them most. Of-course protecting one's motherland is far more complicated a business and we need to go for a mix of both the quality and quantity. Europe is increasingly becoming bitchy; for instance, Germany refused to sell the Leopards to KSA despite the fact that this deal would have benefited German economy tremendously. How sure are we that even after inking the agreement and what not we will indeed get the subs from Germany in due course of time? Our needs for subs are real and imminent for at this point of time we have only one Agosta 90B Sub equipped with AIP, not sure about the other two, whereas the remaining two Agosta class subs are too old and need replacement. We are already too late and I am not sure we could (or we should) delay new sub acquisitions for another several years.

It could be a thorn brother, but it has to be noted that the likes of France have called for an end to refusing weapons sales to China. As for aligning with China and by default distancing from the West, that calls for clever foreign policy. It can be done to keep both happy. Western/Chinese trade is colossal and set to increase, which sets the scene for amicable relations. It's a very grey area.
As for Germany's treatment of Saudi Arabia, each state is different, and the Germans were very eager to sell to us. Of course things can go South, that's why the Chinese deal is actively being pursued at the sametime. We will just have to wait and see.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

dear sir
its been 834773450734 times we have talked here that a contract not mean go wrrite a check and give hard cash . first of all they recive letter of intrest from companies and then go to finanace ministory after its aproved from defence ministry and sure presedent office . when they got NO OBJECTION from finanace ministry then they go talk for purchase something for example you have to pay 2bn$ in cash but not in one year contract took time and work phase by phase . for example pakistan sign contract of 900mn$ 3 agosta subs with france in 1994 while we have hardly 3bn$ reserves those days . but you can see 3 agostas are here in hands today contract started in 1994 and last sub was inducted in oct2006 its a long long time to pay contract .sure as per contract . PIA purchased 5 Boeing 777- 300ER worth 320mn$ each in 2008 and planes will come in 2015 end now please inform me from where they got funds ? or in 2006 they purchased 9 B777s were not free but paid as per contract in other hands they are in lose every years and gov have to pay it . hold down every time you guys see some news ask same question . pakistanis are getting whatever they need and there is no shortage of funds .

Sir Please calm down