Four special ships for Navy

[Dash]

We are not US/UK to come to a nation halfway around the world to attack it.Nor do just four LPD's give that ability.



Thats what I said mate,For Pakistan (the only worthy adversary) the present Shardul Class,Magar class and the Jalashwa are more than enough.

The need of the hour is Submarines,more submarines and then destroyers/frigates.

Actually Karthik, what I think is these ships are not for any offensive missions, as i dont see a navy offensive doctorine.

At best is these are for power projections and this could lead a way to create a group of marine corps.

As you are aware the we are on our way to diversify our fleet and these are the kind of steps which will build a foundation stone for a future navy.

 

[KS]

Actually Karthik, what I think is these ships are not for any offensive missions, as i dont see a navy offensive doctorine.

At best is these are for power projections and this could lead a way to create a group of marine corps.

As you are aware the we are on our way to diversify our fleet and these are the kind of steps which will build a foundation stone for a future navy.

I whole-heartedly agree that LPD's and a marine brigade are very imporartant for power-projection,but are they necessary at this point of time is the real-question.

OUr submarine fleet is ever-depleting ,the Scorpenes are no-where to be seen, no plans for a SSN.

Instead of diversifying the fleet,they should first consolidate the existing fleet and then go for the new ones.

 

[Dash]

I whole-heartedly agree that LPD's and a marine brigade are very imporartant for power-projection,but are they necessary at this point of time is the real-question.]

Yes they are. The reasons are below

OUr submarine fleet is ever-depleting ,the Scorpenes are no-where to be seen, no plans for a SSN.

I agree that Sub fleet is depleting, But doesnt mean that we are not investing. if we were not investing there and investing here then blame them, but its not the case.

Scorpenes are on track and first one is coming by 2012 as all obstacles are now removed. Iam sure MDL will deliver it. Second line RFI is issued and that will also come one day. so 12 subs straight away. Fleet tankers are also on the way.

These are future plans for 2020 where you need to have a fleet which has almost everything a navy will need. France has LHDs and LPDs, they dont have any offensive plans for any country so why o they have it?....these are required.

Instead of diversifying the fleet,they should first consolidate the existing fleet and then go for the new ones.

They are concentratiing on existing one. and its evident from Aircraft carriers to Nuke Subs to conventional subs. These are a part of a scheme which will come true by 2020.

 

[KS]

I agree that Sub fleet is depleting, But doesnt mean that we are not investing. if we were not investing there and investing here then blame them, but its not the case.

Scorpenes are on track and first one is coming by 2012 as all obstacles are now removed. Iam sure MDL will deliver it. Second line RFI is issued and that will also come one day. so 12 subs straight away. Fleet tankers are also on the way.

No offense...but this hope of delivering it has been going fo so long that many have lost hope.And its not staight away..the 12 subs fully we can expect only in abt 2025.


T

hese are future plans for 2020 where you need to have a fleet which has almost everything a navy will need. France has LHDs and LPDs, they dont have any offensive plans for any country so why o they have it?....these are required.

See we cannot compare ourselves with any country like - they have so we must - .They have a separate doctrine,resources,we have a different set of needs,resources.More over these ships I think will be bought off the shelf So even if we order by abt 2017 we ll get them in abt 5 years. Now I think the Navy is getting over-ambitious and stretching itself.

They are concentratiing on existing one. and its evident from Aircraft carriers to Nuke Subs to conventional subs. These are a part of a scheme which will come true by 2020.

Lets hope.But by going by past records.it doesnt seem so feasible.

 

[somebozo]

what kind of anti ship missile protection this vessel has?

 

[KS]

what kind of anti ship missile protection this vessel has?

The ship itself has not been decided.

Most probably it must be the Mistral class from France

 

[sancho]

I agree that Sub fleet is depleting, But doesnt mean that we are not investing. if we were not investing there and investing here then blame them, but its not the case.

Scorpenes are on track and first one is coming by 2012 as all obstacles are now removed. Iam sure MDL will deliver it. Second line RFI is issued and that will also come one day. so 12 subs straight away. Fleet tankers are also on the way.

These are future plans for 2020 where you need to have a fleet which has almost everything a navy will need. France has LHDs and LPDs, they dont have any offensive plans for any country so why o they have it?....these are required.

Hi Dash, I agree with Karthic that amphibious capabilities should not have priority for IN, also that we can't compare IN with other navies around the world, because the aims are totally different.
French navy for example has not only the aim of protecting the costs and sea lanes around France, but also to project their power to their territory all over the world. For example several island in the Indian Ocean that belongs to them, or to help several African countries that were theirs before. Not to mention that they have to project their power because of NATO missions all over the world.

IN, or the power projection of India is by far not comparable to it. Out main aim must be the protection of our costs and seas at first and secondly to project the power into the Indian Ocean and that alone will be more than difficult. In the mid to long term with bigger carriers, SSBNs... the power projection all around the world is important too, but that will take more time.

I agree that we need amphibous capabilities, but these capabilities are only additions to those that are important for our security and like Karthic I also see subs and ASW as the most important priority fot IN. Scorpenes are not on time, they are delayed for 2 years AFAIK, new AIP subs not orderd and the present sub fleet is getting older and older. More important SSNs are nowhere near to be inducted, so there is a problem which IN can't deny.

 

[Dash]

Sancho -

I am not disagreeing with anyone.
However I think, if
1. GOI is doing nothing about Subs, and investing in LPDs then I will say its a bad deal. But they are doing it. Scorpenes will come ebentually (with a delay of course) but work is speeding up with first boat to hit water by 2012 and one there after every year. You all know it.

The navy has budget now, they are going for more P8Is, frigates, destroyers, tankers, Aircraft carriers and all aspects of a blu water navy is looked at then if we have the budget then why not go for some LPDs or LHDs. You have always voted for LHDs, and we are going to buy those whats the problem.

Its not fast tracked, all the assets of navy will be there with us by 2020 and its fine.
Now that was my generic statement.

Hi Dash, I agree with Karthic that amphibious capabilities should not have priority for IN, also that we can't compare IN with other navies around the world, because the aims are totally different.
French navy for example has not only the aim of protecting the costs and sea lanes around France, but also to project their power to their territory all over the world. For example several island in the Indian Ocean that belongs to them, or to help several African countries that were theirs before. Not to mention that they have to project their power because of NATO missions all over the world.

If Frace has interests of protecting assets and power projection, then India also has. we are spreading our interests to streets of mallaca to gulf of Aden. We are going out to secure our sea lanes and merchant navy traffic. If France has objectives then so does India. You know that our interests are going to grow and we need these kind of vessels to both project and protect our goals.

I would be happy if IN buys everything at once and settles down. You would be unhappy if by 2020 we are operating with Magar class and one Jalashwa in our navy strike force. The sooner they modernize the better for us.

 

[sancho]

Sancho -

I am not disagreeing with anyone.
However I think, if
1. GOI is doing nothing about Subs, and investing in LPDs then I will say its a bad deal. But they are doing it. Scorpenes will come ebentually (with a delay of course) but work is speeding up with first boat to hit water by 2012 and one there after every year. You all know it.

The navy has budget now, they are going for more P8Is, frigates, destroyers, tankers, Aircraft carriers and all aspects of a blu water navy is looked at then if we have the budget then why not go for some LPDs or LHDs. You have always voted for LHDs, and we are going to buy those whats the problem.

Its not fast tracked, all the assets of navy will be there with us by 2020 and its fine.
Now that was my generic statement.

If Frace has interests of protecting assets and power projection, then India also has. we are spreading our interests to streets of mallaca to gulf of Aden. We are going out to secure our sea lanes and merchant navy traffic. If France has objectives then so does India. You know that our interests are going to grow and we need these kind of vessels to both project and protect our goals.

I would be happy if IN buys everything at once and settles down. You would be unhappy if by 2020 we are operating with Magar class and one Jalashwa in our navy strike force. The sooner they modernize the better for us.

Hi Dash, see the problem is not that we want to get them in general (although I still prefer LHDs and not LPDs), but that we wasting our time with them now, when more important things should be cleared first.
For example the second order for new AIP subs is going on for a long long time and there is no end in sight, although the failures in the first procurement caused the depleting sub numbers (Scorpene in favour of U214). Also IN scrapped a medium MPA competiton, although they could have benefitted from a common order with ICG. They also still did not decide about new ASW helicopters, although they dismissed naval Dhruv a long time ago.
As I said, imo anti submarine warfare should be the most important matter for the navy, but instead fixing these things first, they talk about LPDs which will only come to service in 2 special situations! War times (and honestly which enemy would we attack with amphibious landings?), or natural disasters. So yes, I would rather keep useing Magar and Jalashwa class till 2020 for these rare occasions, than let India having a not sufficient ASW capability.

 

[KS]

Hi Dash, see the problem is not that we want to get them in general (although I still prefer LHDs and not LPDs), but that we wasting our time with them now, when more important things should be cleared first.
For example the second order for new AIP subs is going on for a long long time and there is no end in sight, although the failures in the first procurement caused the depleting sub numbers (Scorpene in favour of U214). Also IN scrapped a medium MPA competiton, although they could have benefitted from a common order with ICG. They also still did not decide about new ASW helicopters, although they dismissed naval Dhruv a long time ago.
As I said, imo anti submarine warfare should be the most important matter for the navy, but instead fixing these things first, they talk about LPDs which will only come to service in 2 special situations! War times (and honestly which enemy would we attack with amphibious landings?), or natural disasters. So yes, I would rather keep useing Magar and Jalashwa class till 2020 for these rare occasions, than let India having a not sufficient ASW capability.

Exactly - that was my first point.

What enemies we have in the entire IOR that we need LPDs to attack them from the sea. ? None except Pakistan and for Pakistan we have sufficient capability right now.

Even if its 2020 or 2050 will the geography change or will Maldives become so powerful that we need a LPD for power projection.?

As Sancho said,only two situations warrant the use of LPDs - War and Natural Disasters.War part I have already explained,For Natural Disasters build more indigenous Shardul class ships.

And invest more in Subs and frigates/corvettes.

 

[ambidex]

InNavy Amphibious capabilities to support cold start war doctrine.

During Kargil and post Parliament attacks Pakistan army was pretty confident about its coastline irrespective of having a smaller navy. Amphibious capabilities will serve to dilute PA concentration at IB middle and north. Significant threat of mass invasion to Karachi on books is to create pressure on PA (money and men).

 

[sancho]

InNavy Amphibious capabilities to support cold start war doctrine.

During Kargil and post Parliament attacks Pakistan army was pretty confident about its coastline irrespective of having a smaller navy. Amphibious capabilities will serve to dilute PA concentration at IB middle and north. Significant threat of mass invasion to Karachi on books is to create pressure on PA (money and men).

But why do we need to land Indian soldiers on Pakistani costs? The first target of IN in such a war scenario would be to cut Pakistani ports from supply routes, so they send carrier groups, subs and will attack with air, or cruise missile strikes. Landing soldiers on the costs would be way too risky and not necessary at all if we keep in mind how long the land border with Pakistan itself is.

 

[ambidex]

Except Pakistan and for Pakistan we have sufficient capability right now.

Care to explain please.

1. Sea lane blockade.
(International repercussions. Giving excuse to China and many others to veto Indian offence due to blockade in traffic).
2. Destroying naval fleet completely (over optimistic).
3. Busting few refineries of Karachi (Pakistan do not care).

123^Will that be sufficient for India to push Pakistan against the wall when PA will be defending IB religiously with full concentration and InA be trying to implicate cold start type offence.

The whole idea of cold start reflects the Indian intension of not opting preemptive offences but retaliating and invading in fast. Also it is an indicator of what India thinks about Pakistan forces i.e a ^defensive offensive force (Pakistan's very strange, low nuclear threshold also supports this thinking).

Above three points do not help InA who is learning to build maneuvering force and investing heavily with realistic approach that long and laborious war with Pakistan is not feasible anymore.

Karachi or Pakistan coast line is very inviting target for large InN but if one can see why Pakistan has not been investing in Navy till date will help to understand that Karachi is a supposed target to be under heavy fire but not to be captured.

Amphibious capabilities to me is very good move and significant change in InN war doctrine to create pressure on PA who will not be fighting along the IB with more concentration or be doing something extra which was not supposed to be done before.

Regards.