Four of the most ancient human civilisations

[friendly_troll96]

Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan, China. That is where it all began. The "four cradles" of civilization.

No mention of Ganga civilization?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

A 'pakistani' civilization where 7 out of the 11 big sites reside in current day india,stretching as far east as uttar pradesh and the biggest site - bigger than both harappa and mahenjo daro - rakhigarhi is also in india.I suppose its self comforting.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

A 'pakistani' civilization where 7 out of the 11 big sites

Sunshine, it's not that simple. If I have one building in my block and you have 100 fragments of a brick does not mean you hold the "building". The fact is and no amount of frauds and contortions by you people from the Ganga is going to change. That the civilization is called Indus Valley and was centred around the Indus River. And you should know that Indus falls squarely in middle of Pakistan whereas it is peripheral to India.

India is par excellance a Ganga civilization. Pakistan is iteration of the Indus River Basin. It's simple geography. You can't change it. No amount of pujaing in Ganga is going to convert it into Indus. Both flow in opposite directions and with one draining in Arabian Sea and Ganga draining in Bangla Bay.

As regards your self serving claim about Rakhigiri - this is rubbish being peddled by you people. Please show some honesty. I know your going to claim 50 square miles of Rakhigiri is hiding under the earth but overlooking that let's use satellite imagery to say if your claim holds water. The perimeter around Rakhigiri site is about 420 metres.


Rakhigri, India

Mohenjo Daro, Pakistan

The main Mohenjo Daro site is at least six times larger. In addition Mohenjo Daro has two more sister siteseach larger or as extent as Rakhigiri. I think this is pretty conclusive which site is larger. I know your probably going to claim rest is hidden away in Mata India's bosom. Just to give you idea I have placed a 420 perimeter box on top of Mohenjo Daro site for you to compare. And the final laugh is the Rakhigri site is named "Indus". Think about where Indus River is and ses the irony in this.

By the way no civilization was ever neatly boxed. Egyptian civilization had spores as far south as Somalia and Nubia. That is why Africans claim it as their civilization. I believe they call that "Afrocentrism". What I see here by Indians to leech off Indus is similar. Maybe we ought to call this yearning "Gangacentrism? I leave this for you to muse over. Hint: It's not Ganga Valley.


Indus Valley

This is the awesome Mohenjo Daro, Pakistan. Show me what you have in Rakhigri. A few brick fragments??

 

[MultaniGuy]

Sunshine, it's not that simple. If I have one building in my block and you have 100 fragments of a brick does not mean you hold the "building". The fact is and no amount of frauds and contortions by you people from the Ganga is going to change. That the civilization is called Indus Valley and was centred around the Indus River. And you should know that Indus falls squarely in middle of Pakistan whereas it is peripheral to India.

India is par excellance a Ganga civilization. Pakistan is iteration of the Indus River Basin. It's simple geography. You can't change it. No amount of pujaing in Ganga is going to convert it into Indus. Both flow in opposite directions and with one draining in Arabian Sea and Ganga draining in Bangla Bay.

As regards your self serving claim about Rakhigiri - this is rubbish being peddled by you people. Please show some honesty. I know your going to claim 50 square miles of Rakhigiri is hiding under the earth but overlooking that let's use satellite imagery to say if your claim holds water. The perimeter around Rakhigiri site is about 420 metres.


Rakhigri, India

Mohenjo Daro, Pakistan

The main Mohenjo Daro site is at least six times larger. In addition Mohenjo Daro has two more sister siteseach larger or as extent as Rakhigiri. I think this is pretty conclusive which site is larger. I know your probably going to claim rest is hidden away in Mata India's bosom. Just to give you idea I have placed a 420 perimeter box on top of Mohenjo Daro site for you to compare. And the final laugh is the Rakhigri site is named "Indus". Think about where Indus River is and ses the irony in this.

By the way no civilization was ever neatly boxed. Egyptian civilization had spores as far south as Somalia and Nubia. That is why Africans claim it as their civilization. I believe they call that "Afrocentrism". What I see here by Indians to leech off Indus is similar. Maybe we ought to call this yearning "Gangacentrism? I leave this for you to muse over. Hint: It's not Ganga Valley.


Indus Valley

This is the awesome Mohenjo Daro, Pakistan. Show me what you have in Rakhigri. A few brick fragments??

Excellent post.
We have nothing to do with Indians.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Sunshine, it's not that simple. If I have one building in my block and you have 100 fragments of a brick does not mean you hold the "building". The fact is and no amount of frauds and contortions by you people from the Ganga is going to change. That the civilization is called Indus Valley and was centred around the Indus River. And you should know that Indus falls squarely in middle of Pakistan whereas it is peripheral to India.

India is par excellance a Ganga civilization. Pakistan is iteration of the Indus River Basin. It's simple geography. You can't change it. No amount of pujaing in Ganga is going to convert it into Indus. Both flow in opposite directions and with one draining in Arabian Sea and Ganga draining in Bangla Bay.

As regards your self serving claim about Rakhigiri - this is rubbish being peddled by you people. Please show some honesty. I know your going to claim 50 square miles of Rakhigiri is hiding under the earth but overlooking that let's use satellite imagery to say if your claim holds water. The perimeter around Rakhigiri site is about 420 metres.


Rakhigri, India

Mohenjo Daro, Pakistan

The main Mohenjo Daro site is at least six times larger. In addition Mohenjo Daro has two more sister siteseach larger or as extent as Rakhigiri. I think this is pretty conclusive which site is larger. I know your probably going to claim rest is hidden away in Mata India's bosom. Just to give you idea I have placed a 420 perimeter box on top of Mohenjo Daro site for you to compare. And the final laugh is the Rakhigri site is named "Indus". Think about where Indus River is and ses the irony in this.

By the way no civilization was ever neatly boxed. Egyptian civilization had spores as far south as Somalia and Nubia. That is why Africans claim it as their civilization. I believe they call that "Afrocentrism". What I see here by Indians to leech off Indus is similar. Maybe we ought to call this yearning "Gangacentrism? I leave this for you to muse over. Hint: It's not Ganga Valley.


Indus Valley

This is the awesome Mohenjo Daro, Pakistan. Show me what you have in Rakhigri. A few brick fragments??

Yes i suppose you are desperate to claim that for yourself,unfortunately if only history would conveniently toe the line.But alas it doesn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indus_Valley_Civilisation_sites
A list of all significant Indus valley civilization sites excavated.The more its being excavated the more its found eastward with several sites in uttar pradesh.I know that doesn't fit with the glorious pak narrative.Poor you.
46 out those 64 significant sites are in modern day India.Pakistan has only ..wait for it - 16 sites.

As to rakhigarhi if you want to argue please forward your complaints to the ASI.
http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/dzL...appan-site-Rakhigarhi-largest-ASI-report.html
Bhirana is older than even mehrgarh.And we haven't even excavated the ruins of the sunken city of dwaraka yet.And you might start calling it the Indus -saraswati civilization now.
You want to talk about sophistication ,'awesome'?Mahenjodaro and harappa are most famous for being teh oldest and most well excavated,nothing more.And they were excavated by rakhaldas banerjee and dayaram sahni,both indians - remember that.
Lothal in gujarat has the world's oldest dockyard,dholavira has reservoirs and stepwell 3 times the size of the 'great bath' of mahenjo daro.It doesn't matter in historical sense since borders didn't exists between cities of the same civilization back then,but since you want to be a petty little nationalist about it i'll put you and your delusions in their place.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Yes i suppose you are desperate to claim that for yourself

Desperate. You know I come from a village about 4 miles from the banks of Indus. Indus River forms the axis of Pakistan. No place in Pakistan is further than 100 miles from River Indus. River Indus defines Pakistan as much as Niles does Egypt.

You probably are not even within 200 miles of Indus. So I find your ridicalous claims as silly as those civilization starved Blacks claiming Egypt. We sit on the darned Indus valley. You can cite as many Indipedia sources you want but that is a fact you can't change. 60% of Indian population live in the Ganga Basin and rest even further south in Dravidia. So I find it rather amusing all you jokers from Ganga/Dravidia doing everything to associate with something that is on your frontiers. Look at the map below which is zeroed on India. Indus Valley is far away distant in Pakistan in the extreme north west, most of it separated by Thar Desert from your main population centres.

Now look at this map [below] that is zeroed on Pakistan. The Indus river Valley defines Pakistan as it snails it's way down the length of Pakistan watering the semi arid Indus plains. 90% of India does not even fall within the scope of Indus Valley yet you guys dream the Indus is central to your country. From geographic standpoint India is Ganga Basin and the Dravidian peninsula in the south. Pakistan fits Indus Valley like a glove.

If these facts on the ground. Physical and real do not snap you out of your delusion and your nations desperate attempt at gaining some gloss from the land that is Pakistan then there is nothing we can do. All it exposes is Gangacentrism ~ a jealous coveting by people of Ganga India for glories of the mighty Indus River. Maybe we ought to be enamoured by this attention to our land by hordes from Gangadesh.

@django @Talwar e Pakistan @AndrewJin @Chinese-Dragon @war&peace etc

 

[war&peace]

Desperate. You know I come from a village about 4 miles from the banks of Indus. Indus River forms the axis of Pakistan. No place in Pakistan is further than 100 miles from River Indus. River Indus defines Pakistan as much as Niles does Egypt.

You probably are not even within 200 miles of Indus. So I find your ridicalous claims as silly as those civilization starved Blacks claiming Egypt. We sit on the darned Indus valley. You can cite as many Indipedia sources you want but that is a fact you can't change. 60% of Indian population live in the Ganga Basin and rest even further south in Dravidia. So I find it rather amusing all you jokers from Ganga/Dravidia doing everything to associate with something that is on your frontiers. Look at the map below which is zeroed on India. Indus Valley is far away distant in Pakistan in the extreme north west, most of it separated by Thar Desert from your main population centres.

Now look at this map [below] that is zeroed on Pakistan. The Indus river Valley defines Pakistan as it snails it's way down the length of Pakistan watering the semi arid Indus plains. 90% of India does not even fall within the scope of Indus Valley yet you guys dream the Indus is central to your country. From geographic standpoint India is Ganga Basin and the Dravidian peninsula in the south. Pakistan fits Indus Valley like a glove.

If these facts on the ground. Physical and real do not snap you out of your delusion and your nations desperate attempt at gaining some gloss from the land that is Pakistan then there is nothing we can do. All it exposes is Gangacentrism ~ a jealous coveting by people of Ganga India for glories of the mighty Indus River. Maybe we ought to be enamoured by this attention to our land by hordes from Gangadesh.

@django @Talwar e Pakistan @AndrewJin @Chinese-Dragon @war&peace etc

Well, they are lucky to have some fragments and shreds of mighty IVC but it cannot alter the fact that it is called Indus Valley and NOT Ganga valley. It's a historical fact that MohenjoDaro was the pinnacle and the main site of this civilisation right in the middle of Pakistan width wise, away from the border of India. But since IVC is one of the four first cradles of human civilisation, its effects are wide spread and Indian civilisation (if any) got influenced by it as much as Persian and other subsequent civilisations. However it is the land of Pakistan that is home to this mighty civilisation. If Indians are in doubt, they should look it up where is the river Indus.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Well, they are lucky to have some fragments and shreds of mighty IVC

As I said before civilizations have a centre and with circles of influence panning out. If you look at Egypt it's influence extended well south. Indeed there are pyramids found in sudan and even traces of Egytian influence as far south as Ethopia and Somalia. However Egypt was the core of that civilization. That is why nobody takes Afrocentrists seriously - they like Indian Gangacentrists try to leech off Egypt to leverage it as a African civilization. They cite Nubian Pyramids and Axum as proof but these are just fragments of the Egyptian civilization. This attempt by Indian's can be best described as Gangacentrism. A attempt to leverage Indus into a wider Ganga India like Afrocentrists do. Could this be informed by the fact that they don't have anything of their own like Africans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_pyramids

 

[war&peace]

A 'pakistani' civilization where 7 out of the 11 big sites reside in current day india,stretching as far east as uttar pradesh and the biggest site - bigger than both harappa and mahenjo daro - rakhigarhi is also in india.I suppose its self comforting.

You know what you're missing?....The dates of the sites please quote some independent experts with due references that provide the dates .... If Rakhigarhi developed 500 years later even if its 20 times more advanced than IVC, it doesn't hold a candle to the latter. When the historians list civilisation, they do it in a sequence thus (1) Sumerian (2) Ancient Egypt (3) IVC (4) Chinese... These civilisations have some overlap time especially the latter three.

As I said before civilizations have a centre and with circles of influence panning out. If you look at Egypt it's influence extended well south. Indeed there are pyramids found in sudan and even traces of Egytian influence as far south as Ethopia and Somalia. However Egypt was the core of that civilization. That is why nobody takes Afrocentrists seriously - they like Indian Gangacentrists try to leech off Egypt to leverage it as a African civilization. They cite Nubian Pyramids and Axum as proof but these are just fragments of the Egyptian civilization. This attempt by Indian's can be best described as Gangacentrism. A attempt to leverage Indus into a wider Ganga India like Afrocentrists do. Could this be informed by the fact that they don't have anything of their own like Africans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_pyramids

The most significant parameter in determining a civilisation historical value is the time. How ancient it was? Of course today's Europe is more advanced than most of these ancient civilisations but does that make the west the cradle of human civilisation? No.. and I like the honesty of the western historians about it that vast majority of them never makes such absurd claims... It was the middle-east where the first human civilisation began and then fanned out in all directions proportional to the ease of travel.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The dates of the sites please quote some independent experts

That won't work. There is a whole cottage industry in India making up history and then filling up Wikipedia with dodgy links and info. This involves amongst other things -

* Making it that there are more sites in India
* Making those sites larger and more significant then they are. Turning "moles into mountains".
* Making it that the sites in India are older than all other IVC sites. In doing so turning all known facts upside down. We know that pre-IVC sites are found in Iran, Afghanistan like Mundigak, Pir-Sokhta to Mehr Garh in western part of Pakistan and that suggests a west to east drift. The Indians have gone and announced that they have made the "discovery" that their site is the oldest turning everything we known on it's head.

All of it is intended to shift the foci of the IVC from Pakistan into India. It's as simple as that. It simply a effort intended to tilt IVC into Ganga India - as summed up in map below.

 

[war&peace]

That won't work. There is a whole cottage industry in India making up history and then filling up Wikipedia with dodgy links and info. This involves amongst other things -

* Making it that there are more sites in India
* Making those sites larger and more significant then they are. Turning "moles into mountains".
* Making it that the sites in India are older than all other IVC sites. In doing so turning all known facts upside down. We know that pre-IVC sites are found in Iran, Afghanistan like Mundigak, Pir-Sokhta to Mehr Garh in western part of Pakistan and that suggests a west to east drift. The Indians have gone and announced that they have made the "discovery" that their site is the oldest turning everything we known on it's head.

All of it is intended to shift the foci of the IVC from Pakistan into India. It's as simple as that.

I know the inferiority complexed Gangadeshis are doing that and that is why Wikkipedia is not a reliable source. And that is why I explicitly mentioned "independent experts" and not some web-blogs or wikkipedia where anyone can add or subtract.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

"independent experts"

Well the best you will get is from academic research published in peer reviewed papers. Take this one for instance [below] which shows a west to east drift. That is from Sumer to Indus. Modern day Syria/Iraq to Iran to Afghanistan and Pakistan. Quite opposite what Indians are claiming.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0095714

 

[war&peace]

Well the best you will get is from academic research published in peer reviewed papers. Take this one for instance [below] which shows a west to east drift. That is from Sumer to Indus. Modern day Syria/Iraq to Iran to Afghanistan and Pakistan. Quite opposite what Indians are claiming.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0095714

Well that's the kind of reference I meant or a world renowned historian.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

So you two spoke a lot of emotional hyperbole of how the 'indus ' this and that and how you hate the ganga.Not only is bhirrana in haryana the oldest site,lothal and with its dockyard,kalibangan with the world's earliest ploughed field and dholavira with stepwell and reservoir 3 times the size of mahenjo daro.I know it hurts that history doesnt suit your narrative of a line or square corresponding to your 'narrative' of a prehistoric 'pakistan'.

Oh and 46 out of the 64 significant sites are and always will be in India.But please ,do keep on going on claiming the ancient 'pakistani' civilization.The fact is the modern india and pakistan were nation states curved out of the political entity called british india in 1947.Modern India considers itself the heir of the civilizational entity called bharatvarsha with its long history.Pakistan due to having chosen to highlight its islamic identity can't do the same,because that would include glorification of 'hindu' history.So it needs to claim either pre -vedic history ,or selective amnesia that remembers islamic empires in the subcontinent and glorifies invaders like qasim and ghazni who devastated their own ancestors who were straight in their path.Thats why you have a 'constructed' history where you claim IVC as a sort of exclusive pakistani civilization,then total silence for thousands of years only for history to reappear with qasim.This type of desperation happens when one has to reconcile state ideology with actual history,and the result is comical.

 

[war&peace]

So you two spoke a lot of emotional hyperbole of how the 'indus ' this and that and how you hate the ganga.Not only is bhirrana in haryana the oldest site,lothal and with its dockyard,kalibangan with the world's earliest ploughed field and dholavira with stepwell and reservoir 3 times the size of mahenjo daro.I know it hurts that history doesnt suit your narrative of a line or square corresponding to your 'narrative' of a prehistoric 'pakistan'.

Oh and 46 out of the 64 significant sites are and always will be in India.But please ,do keep on going on claiming the ancient 'pakistani' civilization.The fact is the modern india and pakistan were nation states curved out of the political entity called british india in 1947.Modern India considers itself the heir of the civilizational entity called bharatvarsha with its long history.Pakistan due to having chosen to highlight its islamic identity can't do the same,because that would include glorification of 'hindu' history.So it needs to claim either pre -vedic history ,or selective amnesia that remembers islamic empires in the subcontinent and glorifies invaders like qasim and ghazni who devastated their own ancestors who were straight in their path.Thats why you have a 'constructed' history where you claim IVC as a sort of exclusive pakistani civilization,then total silence for thousands of years only for history to reappear with qasim.This type of desperation happens when one has to reconcile state ideology with actual history,and the result is comical.

No I don't hate Ganga but I just say that IVC is in Pakistan and surely its influence spread in all directions so some of indian civilisations also benefited from it but those are not among first four human civilisation. As far as plough fields are concerned, those do not constitute a whole civilisation. For example MehrGarh is Pakistan is much much older than anything in India. Furthermore, Indians must stop their futile endeavours to steal Pakistan's cultural heritage because the world already knows and things have been documented so you guys will always remain unsuccessful and thus frustrated.