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Four of the most ancient human civilisations

I don't understand your post?

Do you think China should claim to be the inheritor of Russian civilization because we happen to be neighbors, and have some sites and artifacts of Russian civilization within our borders?

Or maybe those sites and artifacts are there because we have a land border with Russia?

Some troll Indians are so hillarious that they argue, Pakistan is a muslim country so Indus Valley Civilization belongs to India.

By Indian logic, Israelis should be the heirs of Egyptian civilization because Egyptians are Muslims today.:woot::lol::crazy:
 
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Some troll Indians are so hillarious that they argue, Pakistan is a muslim country so Indus Valley Civilization belongs to India.

By Indian logic, Israelis should be the heirs of Egyptian civilization because Egyptians are Muslims today.:woot::lol::crazy:
IVC hardly even had to do anything with Hinduism. They ate meat and buried their dead.
 
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I did not start this thread,nor did i start the chest thumping.See first page Kaptaan's rambling rants about how 'superior ' he believes himself to be to the 'gangadeshis' - a term he has coined and his obsession with ganga .

Fair enough. :tup:

first with his obsession with muslims of lucknow rising up and starting some sort of rebellion aided by pakistan

I think you are referring to @haviZsultan . He is a good enough member otherwise. He's been missing on the forum since the past few months at least.
 
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What are you talking about?They have the same indus seals found in them,same stepwell and similar technology in city planning.And many such sites are being found in India.What is now established is that the indus civilization actually was much larger in extent,and extended eastwards to a far greater degree than previously thought.As more and more sites are being excavated this is being established.Harappa and mahenjo daro are oldest major sites,most extensively excavated and thus get the most publicity.This doesn't mean they are the civilization in entirety.What i'm saying is simple - pakistan can ofcourse claim IVC as part of their ancient heritage(though due to ideological reasons they are not interested in claiming any part of their subsequent 'hindu' history such as ancient takshashila),what you can't do is say its is only a pakistani heritage given that huge number of sites have been found in India.You can call it a shared heritage.

We have not excavated the ganges area in depth due to existing population centres dotting the region and no certain conclusions can be made.In any case the ganga forms the heartland of the vedic civilization that followed the IVC,so how was it infertile.The great ancient indian kingdoms of the vedic area centred on the ganga and its tributaries as well as the indus tributaries in punjab region.The second urbanization in indian history is centred on ganges.If you want to bring religion into this you will find the IVC has many features similar to hinduism - pashupathinath seals depicting proto-shiva,fire worship,mother goddess,worship of animals.In terms of religious identity IVC is far closer to modern day India than pakistan.But lets keep religion out of this.

Mate, religion is a mouse-trap for Indians because of you hindu majority's recent hate towards Islam and everything related to Islam. For example, hindu leaders have started to make a propaganda that Taaj-Mahal is built on some shib-temple so they have their Muslim heritage and disown but unlike them we have no problem owing our heritage even if our ancestors were hindus because they were smart enough to embrace the truth when it was presented to them and because of their reversion we are born Muslims so we are proud of them. The en masse reversion to Islam by the people of Indus valley also differentiates them from the Dravidian and Ganga civilisations who did not revert to Islam despite centuries of rule by Muslim dynasties so it marks stark cultural, genetic and religious contrast between the IVC people and non-IVC people of the subcontinent.

Also their is no evidence that the IVCians were Hindus because not a single hindu temple has been discovered either in Mohenjodaro or in Harappa. Seals, sculptors and figurines are not sufficient evidence to establish the religious affiliations of the whole civilisation because in older times, figures were used as language and communications and later may have been used to worship as well.

This has little to do with Hinduism. The fact that you think that Hinduism in an organized form was dominant in ancient Pakistan highlights how narrow-minded you are.

Our history does not start with IVC and "restarts" with Qasim as you have immaturely stated.

Our history starts with the Soanians and the Riwatians, moves on to Mehrghar and the Indus Valley civilization, continues into the Kamboja, Gandhara, Kasmira, Sindhu, Madra, Paurvas, Bahlika Kingdoms.

Sagala, Multan, Taxila, Patala, Krokola, Banbhore, Minnagara, etc... city states.

The Indo-Greek and Indo-Persian Kingdoms and fierce tribes of the Sakas, Kushanas, Hunas, Hephthalites.

The various dynasties of the Rai, Ror, Soomra, Talpur, Samma, Raees, Katoor, Tarkhan, Arghun, Kalhora, and etc...

95% of these states were not even Hindu.

I could go on and on as our history is distinct and vast. But I should not waste anymore time on a Hindu-centric ignorant fool.
Exactly, the en masse reversion of the people of Indus valley to Islam during the initial introduction of the religion distinguishes them from the Dravidian people whose majority stayed adherent to hinduism even after centuries of the rules by Muslim kings/dynasties.

I think you are referring to @haviZsultan . He is a good enough member otherwise. He's been missing on the forum since the past few months at least.
I hope he @haviZsultan is fine. Despite strong differences of opinion with him on certain issues, we always had great scholastic discourse on various topics. We share the same heritage of migration from India into Pakistan.
 
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,the people gradually migrated eastwards and 2nd great urbanization took place on the ganga
Standard Gangacentrism at play here. Analogous to how desperate Black Americans dream that Ancient Egypt was their African civilization just because some spores have been found in Sudan, Ethopia and Somalia. In addition some drawings of Black slaves has given them the matarial to go for "Afrocentrism" which entails leeching off the Egyptians. This exact phenomenon can be observed by Ganga and Dravidian Indians who are hundreds if not thousand miles distant from Indus separated by the huge Thar Desert. Yet the few crumbs that fell their way from Indus are being desperately built up. By hocus pocus the foci of Indus/Harappa is being shifted into India. Look how huge India is. It has nothing. It is as sterlie as Sub Saharan Africa in historical heritage. The Indians have to travel to the borders of Pakistan to smell civilization.

Gangacentrism ~ The yearning by Ganga to fraudulently pick the gloss from Indus. Something I want Pak members to become aware of. I think this might deserve a thread of it's own.

z0mAXYL.png
 
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The only thing that I can see hurting is you - your the one trying to sniff my backside. On the contrary I don't want to have anything to do with Ganga. Out of curiosity where abouts Ganga are you from? Or are you from Dravidia?

And note your trying to desperately hypenate Ganga with Indus. I on the other hand would not even piss in the Ganga let alone associate with it. Ganga and Dravidia are strictly "verboten". When you have gold you don't look at garbage. When you have garbage then you look over the fence at the shining gold.

Ps. I rarely bother looking at Indipedia, sorry Wikipedia links that relate to South Asian history. You and your mates have pressure pumped it with your own biased tales. Thus "Indpedia".

As i said,you need help.Your obsession with geographical features and irrational hatred of them is just retarded.

Standard Gangacentrism at play here. Analogous to how desperate Black Americans dream that Ancient Egypt was their African civilization just because some spores have been found in Sudan, Ethopia and Somalia. In addition some drawings of Black slaves has given them the matarial to go for "Afrocentrism" which entails leeching off the Egyptians. This exact phenomenon can be observed by Ganga and Dravidian Indians who are hundreds if not thousand miles distant from Indus separated by the huge Thar Desert. Yet the few crumbs that fell their way from Indus are being desperately built up. By hocus pocus the foci of Indus/Harappa is being shifted into India. Look how huge India is. It has nothing. It is as sterlie as Sub Saharan Africa in historical heritage. The Indians have to travel to the borders of Pakistan to smell civilization.

Gangacentrism ~ The yearning by Ganga to fraudulently pick the gloss from Indus. Something I want Pak members to become aware of. I think this might deserve a thread of it's own.

z0mAXYL.png

You can rant all you want,it won't change the existence of numerous IVC sites in India.46 out of 64 significant ones.
You can't change ground reality with ranting.We have the biggest site,the oldest site ,some of the most advanced ones - lothal with the world's first dock,kalibangan with ploughed fields,dholavira with stepwell and reservoir 3 times the size of mahenjodaro.So what does your hatred change?Nothing.

Both their country (India) and their religion (Hindu) are named after your Indus river.

If they hate Pakistan so much, maybe they should disown the civilization and culture they acquired from the IVC.

Wrong.Hind is the bastardized form of sindhu the sanskrit word for indus in arabic.When the persians under darius conquered taxila their easternmost province Hindush became the satrapy, the land east of the Indus which they had not ventured into became the basis for western concept of india.Herodotus the first greek historian deriving from this thus used India -also used by megasthenes in his book indika,and people living in the land later came to be called hindus by arab and turkic invaders even though 'hinduism' never existed as a organzied religion and was only organized to some extent during british period.The indian terms are bharat denoting land of king bharat's descendants and sanatana dharma.

Mate, religion is a mouse-trap for Indians because of you hindu majority's recent hate towards Islam and everything related to Islam. For example, hindu leaders have started to make a propaganda that Taaj-Mahal is built on some shib-temple so they have their Muslim heritage and disown but unlike them we have no problem owing our heritage even if our ancestors were hindus because they were smart enough to embrace the truth when it was presented to them and because of their reversion we are born Muslims so we are proud of them. The en masse reversion to Islam by the people of Indus valley also differentiates them from the Dravidian and Ganga civilisations who did not revert to Islam despite centuries of rule by Muslim dynasties so it marks stark cultural, genetic and religious contrast between the IVC people and non-IVC people of the subcontinent.

Also their is no evidence that the IVCians were Hindus because not a single hindu temple has been discovered either in Mohenjodaro or in Harappa. Seals, sculptors and figurines are not sufficient evidence to establish the religious affiliations of the whole civilisation because in older times, figures were used as language and communications and later may have been used to worship as well.


Exactly, the en masse reversion of the people of Indus valley to Islam during the initial introduction of the religion distinguishes them from the Dravidian people whose majority stayed adherent to hinduism even after centuries of the rules by Muslim kings/dynasties.


I hope he @haviZsultan is fine. Despite strong differences of opinion with him on certain issues, we always had great scholastic discourse on various topics. We share the same heritage of migration from India into Pakistan.

I have never said IVC was hindu,nor do i care if it was.But what you can't deny is there are several features found in IVC excavations with proto hindu features .Pashupathinath seals in yogic posture surrounded by animals considered to be proto-shiva,animal worship,fire worship,mother goddess figurine etc.I merely said this to puncture kaptaan's boasts not to hurt sentiments.I disagree with your statement there is any stark genetic,religious,cultural contrast between IVC and non IVC people of subcontinent.The dna evidence for skeletons doesn't support it(showing it was cosmopolitan with Proto-Australoid, Mediterranean,Mongoloid and Alpinoid genes present),the features of their religion is closer to what is considered 'hinduism' rather than islam which was imported from arabia and has no roots in subcontinent and can never claim to be its heir in a religious sense.

I am not a religious person and never have been.This is not a defence of hindusim which has several flaws.But i can't ignore that the cultural heritage of india has a heavy vedic overtone and difficult to seperate from the history of hinduism so to speak.So when kaptaan rants and insults our history and heritage,i'm fully obligated to defend our culture .So it may seem that i'm going into religion but i'm actually not,its just that the 2 get mixed somewhat during pre-modern period of time.
 
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Your obsession with geographical features
To you is obsession. To me it is hard facts on the ground. One of few things that we can't change. It's what countries fight over. Tract of land. Everything comes on or is buried underneath. And i don't hate Ganga. All I am saying is "you to yours and ours to us". Simple. Much as I can't pull my d*ck out and start masturbating over Anatolia's great heritage, or Mesopotamia's or over your Ganga just because all these are "Asian".

What I am saying is the simplest incontrovertible fact. Our geography. You are so deluded that you can't even accept that. For the last time all I am saying is - we are Indus and you are Ganga. What is so wrong with that?

Let go of this Gangacentrism. Just take pride in your own people and your own land please. If you can't then go milch the Banglas, the Indonesians, the Thai's, Sri Lankans, Nepalese, that share so much with you.
 
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To you is obsession. To me it is hard facts on the ground. One of few things that we can't change. It's what countries fight over. Tract of land. Everything comes on or is buried underneath. And i don't hate Ganga. All I am saying is "you to yours and ours to us". Simple. Much as I can't pull my d*ck out and start masturbating over Anatolia's great heritage, or Mesopotamia's or over your Ganga just because all these are "Asian".

What I am saying is the simplest incontrovertible fact. Our geography. You are so deluded that you can't even accept that. For the last time all I am saying is - we are Indus and you are Ganga. What is so wrong with that?

Let go of this Gangacentrism. Just take pride in your own people and your own land please. If you can't then go milch the Banglas, the Indonesians, the Thai's, Sri Lankans, Nepalese, that share so much with you.

The post makes no sense at all.Without Indus river and its tributaries,himachal pradesh,jammu and indian pujab would be barren.How are they your rivers?You can say only the Indus itself flows largely through pakistan - but ravi,beas,chenab and sutlej these ancient rivers celebrated from the time of the vedas are the lifeblood of North western India.Geographical features like rivers - whether ganges or indus do not follow international boundaries - so your hatred and love over these features is irrational and your judgement increasingly delusional.
 
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You can say only the Indus itself flows largely through pakistan
Nile goes through at least 5 African countries but we associate it with Egypt. 94% of Indus goes through Pakistan. The Indus basin overlaps in Afghanistan, China and India but is central to Pakistan. I have shown you on maps but you still ignore. Yes some of the basin does overlap other countries but it is peripheral to China, Afghanistan and India but is central to Pakistan. A country is not made by 5% but is defined by 95%. Some parts of India have people with Tibeto-Burman features and look East Asian. Does that make India in the same category as China, Japan, Vietnam, Taiwan, Cambodia, Myanmar etc.

Of course not because they [Tibeto-Burmans] are peripheral people of India. The ethnic groups from the Ganga and Dravians define India. Similarly the small sliver of Indus Basin in India [note some of it also extends to China, Afghanistan] do not go on to define those countries. For instance Mundigakh is a IVC site in Afghanistan. I don't see Afghans rummaging here using the Kabul sub-basin [it is part of Indus Basin as River Kabul flows into Indus near Attock] as way of jumping on IVC.

afghan-rivers-map.jpg



There are aspects of Egyptian civilization found in Sudan, Ethopia, Axum etc but that we all know the core of that civilization is in Egypt. Although there are lot of Blacks with issues over inferiority who try to use those "leavings" as a claim on Egypt much as your doing with us. They call that Afrocentrism.
 
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my mother comes from Bhopal and my father is from Ajmair .. what does that make me ? Oh wait i just realize i dont care, I am a Muslim who is happy that my grandparents take the right decision to move to Pakistan .
 
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Desperate. You know I come from a village about 4 miles from the banks of Indus. Indus River forms the axis of Pakistan. No place in Pakistan is further than 100 miles from River Indus. River Indus defines Pakistan as much as Niles does Egypt.

You probably are not even within 200 miles of Indus. So I find your ridicalous claims as silly as those civilization starved Blacks claiming Egypt. We sit on the darned Indus valley. You can cite as many Indipedia sources you want but that is a fact you can't change. 60% of Indian population live in the Ganga Basin and rest even further south in Dravidia. So I find it rather amusing all you jokers from Ganga/Dravidia doing everything to associate with something that is on your frontiers. Look at the map below which is zeroed on India. Indus Valley is far away distant in Pakistan in the extreme north west, most of it separated by Thar Desert from your main population centres.


tHp1JeW.jpg



Now look at this map [below] that is zeroed on Pakistan. The Indus river Valley defines Pakistan as it snails it's way down the length of Pakistan watering the semi arid Indus plains. 90% of India does not even fall within the scope of Indus Valley yet you guys dream the Indus is central to your country. From geographic standpoint India is Ganga Basin and the Dravidian peninsula in the south. Pakistan fits Indus Valley like a glove.


0qEBI65.jpg



If these facts on the ground. Physical and real do not snap you out of your delusion and your nations desperate attempt at gaining some gloss from the land that is Pakistan then there is nothing we can do. All it exposes is Gangacentrism ~ a jealous coveting by people of Ganga India for glories of the mighty Indus River. Maybe we ought to be enamoured by this attention to our land by hordes from Gangadesh.

@django @Talwar e Pakistan @AndrewJin @Chinese-Dragon @war&peace etc
Indeed bro it fits our Geography like a glove but then they will never listen to you a man from the very distant Ghandaran region, perhaps they will heed the wise words of their very own Ganga man Adi Shankara and his outline of the "four mathas" of so-called Bharat, non of the lands are anywhere near what is conterminous Pakistan.Kudos bro
 
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To you is obsession. To me it is hard facts on the ground. One of few things that we can't change. It's what countries fight over. Tract of land. Everything comes on or is buried underneath. And i don't hate Ganga. All I am saying is "you to yours and ours to us". Simple. Much as I can't pull my d*ck out and start masturbating over Anatolia's great heritage, or Mesopotamia's or over your Ganga just because all these are "Asian".

What I am saying is the simplest incontrovertible fact. Our geography. You are so deluded that you can't even accept that. For the last time all I am saying is - we are Indus and you are Ganga. What is so wrong with that?

Let go of this Gangacentrism. Just take pride in your own people and your own land please. If you can't then go milch the Banglas, the Indonesians, the Thai's, Sri Lankans, Nepalese, that share so much with you.

Actually I kind of sympathize with them here.

If China had lost the Yellow River (our mother river) to another country, I would feel just as lost and helpless as the Indians do here.

Their culture and civilization came from the Indus River, without it they have nothing to hold on to. They have to admit that their entire culture and civilization came from foreigners.

So I can't really blame them for acting like wild animals whenever the topic of the IVC comes up. Losing your mother river is like losing your entire history. But the Indus River never belonged to the Indians.
 
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Nile goes through at least 5 African countries but we associate it with Egypt. 94% of Indus goes through Pakistan. The Indus basin overlaps in Afghanistan, China and India but is central to Pakistan. I have shown you on maps but you still ignore. Yes some of the basin does overlap other countries but it is peripheral to China, Afghanistan and India but is central to Pakistan. A country is not made by 5% but is defined by 95%. Some parts of India have people with Tibeto-Burman features and look East Asian. Does that make India in the same category as China, Japan, Vietnam, Taiwan, Cambodia, Myanmar etc.

Of course not because they [Tibeto-Burmans] are peripheral people of India. The ethnic groups from the Ganga and Dravians define India. Similarly the small sliver of Indus Basin in India [note some of it also extends to China, Afghanistan] do not go on to define those countries. For instance Mundigakh is a IVC site in Afghanistan. I don't see Afghans rummaging here using the Kabul sub-basin [it is part of Indus Basin as River Kabul flows into Indus near Attock] as way of jumping on IVC.

afghan-rivers-map.jpg



There are aspects of Egyptian civilization found in Sudan, Ethopia, Axum etc but that we all know the core of that civilization is in Egypt. Although there are lot of Blacks with issues over inferiority who try to use those "leavings" as a claim on Egypt much as your doing with us. They call that Afrocentrism.

What a pathetic off base explanation.Only the majority of the main indus river flows through pakistan and in ancient times there was no border,its 4 tributaries are still lifeblood of north west india and were so from rigvedic times.
What do racial features have to do with this discussion?Yes India is a heterogeneous federal state with many racial subtypes mixed or dominating regionally.I see that as nothing to be ashamed of.The IVC is only one part of our history ,not nearly the whole.There is the whole vedic history,the sangam era history,the glorious architecture and literature of chola-chalukya-pallava kings,the tribal culture of the north east.All of this we proudly claim as ours,we don't have selective amnesia like you.

We are not 'leavings' in the case of the IVC .You might call yourself that if you want to.We have the most number of significant sites and sites with technology levels beyond that of mahenjo daro.46 out of 64 of the sites with significant features belong to india.Pakistan has only 16 and afghanistan only 2.Bigots like you that rejected your own history and heritage to adopt that of the arab and glorify invaders that raped and devastated your own ancestors lands and lives are the ultimate example of inferiority complex.

I understand your need to feel significant as if this area taken in isolation had some unique greatness but lol lets take a look historically -
It was the only area of the indian subcontinent conquered by the persians.
They fell before the onslaught of the greeks,alexander conquered them only being turned away by the power of the huge armies of magadha.Chandragupta maurya liberated them and recovered this area from seleucus and the greeks.The area was conquered by indo-greek bactrians and remained under their rule after the fall of the mauryans but not in the indian heartland where sungas and satavahans prevented further expansion.
They were then conquered by the Kushans and saka indo -parthians who replaced the bactrians as the foreign masters.The sakas were crushed by the gupta empire who again liberated this area .
Come the fall of the gupta empire and the hunas under toramana and mihirkula devastate the region,conquering kashmir,western punjab and roughly the whole area corresponding to modern pakistan and afghanisthan.But he is defeated trying to penetrate into india proper by alliance of yasodharman of malwa and later guptas.
After that the area was a fringe region whereas the centre of imperial power was in kanauj.In the tripartite struggle for mastery of india the 3 powers were rastrakutas in the south,palas in bengal and gurjara partiharas in rajasthan-gujarat.
The arabs arrive - and the first and only region to be conquered?Sindh in modern day pakistan.The 'invincible' world conqueror arab caliphates try to cross the indus and attack the indian heartland and are given such a brutal drubbing by gurajara pratihara and chalukya-rastrakutas in battles of rajasthan that their own arab writers write 'arabs had nowhere to flee and caLiph gave up all hopes of conquering hindustan'.
After that rajputs dominate the area.When the ghaznavid turks came - the 2 main areas that were conquered first FATA and punjab.Ghazni burned lahore and defeated the shahis of that area.
Ghori's first conquest - Multan.Turkic sultans like balban considered indian converts inferior,refused them entry into administration and refused even to meet such 'lowly persons'.When the turks were replaced by the afghan sultans ,they did eh same - filling the administration with afghans only.The only indigeneous power afghans ever respected or allied with were the only ones that had fought the sultanate throughout - the rajputs.Not the local power of any 'pakistani' dynasty.
Same case with Mughals..the first ones to be conquered by babur are pashtun tribals from your FATA region where babur boasts in his baburnama how he made minarets of skulls out of them.Only indigeneous powers mughals accomodated - rajputs and later marathas.Marathas defeated and overran the mughal empire.
In the west however in region of modern day pakistan area first you were being looted by the afghan abdalis and then were conquered by the sikhs until replaced by the british.
A simple look at the region's history makes it very clear that for most of your history you have been a conquered people,subject to foreign domination and liberated only when a centralized power from the subcontinent proper retook the region.And lol,you tell us of inferiority complex,you who have been conquered by others for most of known history while we built empires like the guptas,mauryas,pratiharas,cholas ,pallavas and many more.Name one great historical empire centred on modern day pakistan region - none.

You have 2 options to deal with your history of defeat.
1.Either claim you are all descendants of foreign invaders who settled in the region,thus you can take some claim 'as the heirs of the muslim empires' ,but then you can't claim the IVC because you came much later.
2.Or you can claim you are mostly indigeneous inhabitants with a continuous history to lay claim to IVC heritage,but then you would have to live up to the fact that for most and almost all of your history you were slaves to foreign powers.So which one will it be?
 
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I know. Now can you at least respect us for having given you a religion? No idea why you people worship the filthy Ganga. You need to look west and worship our land. Our Indus. We gave you everything. Don't ever forget that.

Your arguments are reasonable but our vedic texts talk about Sapta sindhu referring to Indus and its tributaries and their gods and goddesses. Why would we adopt these alien gods in our mythology if we did not belong to one??? I for one feel that we trace our lineage to Indus and then to gangetic plains. Our ancient temples have the same bath wells that were found during the excavations. The seals are another thing pointing to meditation of a rishi or a sage that points to some yogic postures. It is possible some migrated to gangetic plain and adopted the culture of gangetic plain and their gods. And the ones who stayed back adopted the cultures of the invading armies and their rulers.
 
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