Four of the most ancient human civilisations

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Your arguments are reasonable but our vedic texts talk about Sapta sindhu referring to Indus and its tributaries and their gods and goddesses. Why would we adopt these alien gods in our mythology if we did not belong to one??? I for one feel that we trace our lineage to Indus and then to gangetic plains. Our ancient temples have the same bath wells that were found during the excavations. The seals are another thing pointing to meditation of a rishi or a sage that points to some yogic postures. It is possible some migrated to gangetic plain and adopted the culture of gangetic plain and their gods. And the ones who stayed back adopted the cultures of the invading armies and their rulers.

A couple things here.

The Indus has been mentioned by many, including the Zoroastrian Avesta. That does not give Iranians the right to claim our civilization.

Bath Wells have been found in almost every civilization and ancient city, IVC cities having bath wells does not mean that it is now randomly an Indian civilization.

Seals of a person sitting in a cross legged position has been found all around the world. That does not mean they are doing yoga and now Indians and Hindus from Tamilnadu to Bali can claim these civilizations/cities.

Also, there is no genetic evidence to suggest mass migration from the Indus into the Gangetic Plains. The only significant trace of a migration was into Europe and Central Asia, not the Ganges. Even then, it was most likely just a portion; most of the people of IVC stayed in the fertile valley of the Indus.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Your arguments are reasonable but our vedic texts talk about Sapta sindhu referring to Indus and its tributaries and their gods and goddesses.

Yes, what you say also makes sense. What you call Hinduism today has been largely informed from the Indus Region - which is why i mocked that "you guys even owe your religion to us".

However and this is important thing to note. Buddhism is from Nepal and neighbouring regions of India. Today is has far more followers outside where it was founded in East Asia, South East Asia. That does not give any of those countries or followers anf exclusive claim on Nepal/India just because their religion originated there.

Similarly Christianity and Islam are rooted in Middle East. However both have followers across the world. In freezing Sweden or UK you will get Christmas Plays like this. Where the Middle Eastern origins of Christiany can be seen.

The fact is Muslims and Christian in places as far away as Africa, Europe have heavily been influenced by Semitic religions. Even our names and languages have been influenced. However no Swede, English, Jamaican can make claims on Middle East. I am Muslim but I can't make claims on Saudia Arabia or Istanbul as the latter was the centre of the caliphate. Black Jamaicans for instance follow a Semite religion - Christianity from Middle East but have English as their mother tongue. That does not give them claims on Palestine or England.

So, yes as I said earlier Vedic culture went on to inform the language and religion that dominates you today. But from my perspective you people were colonized by a culture from the Indus. The vast majority of the people in the Ganga are converts to influences from the Indus. The Indus Valley was a major exporter of civilization.

Being Muslim gives me no claim to Saudia Arabia. Being Christian gives you no claim on Palestine. In the same way being Hindu does not give you claim on Indus. In the same way as a Korean Buddhist has no claim on the Ganga.

It is possible some migrated to gangetic

No denying that. Some from Indus migrated to Central Asia, Iran, Middle East etc But these numbers were tiny. Ganga has and had huge population. Indus by comparison had smaller population. Vastly majority of Ganga remained Ganga. I think your upper castes are probably from our part of the world. The Dalits on the other hand are natives of Ganga. However most of Ganga is dominated by aboriginals native to Ganga although you have recieved language/culture ingress from Indus.

 

[django]

No denying that. Some from Indus migrated to Central Asia, Iran, Middle East etc But these numbers were tiny. Ganga has and had huge population. Indus by comparison had smaller population. Vastly majority of Ganga remained Ganga. I think your upper castes are probably from our part of the world. The Dalits on the other hand are natives of Ganga. However most of Ganga is dominated by aboriginals native to Ganga although you have recieved language/culture ingress from Indus.

Bro it has been well established that during the mid-iron age male pioneers from the Indus region made their way to the Ganga region and domesticated the feral forest people of the Ganga region, they gifted them knowledge of Rig-Ved and even gifted their genes by telling some of the local men to step aside, and well the rest is history.Kudos bro

 

[my2cents]

Yes, what you say also makes sense. What you call Hinduism today has been largely informed from the Indus Region - which is why i mocked that "you guys even owe your religion to us".

However and this is important thing to note. Buddhism is from Nepal and neighbouring regions of India. Today is has far more followers outside where it was founded in East Asia, South East Asia. That does not give any of those countries or followers anf exclusive claim on Nepal/India just because their religion originated there.

Similarly Christianity and Islam are rooted in Middle East. However both have followers across the world. In freezing Sweden or UK you will get Christmas Plays like this. Where the Middle Eastern origins of Christiany can be seen.

The fact is Muslims and Christian in places as far away as Africa, Europe have heavily been influenced by Semitic religions. Even our names and languages have been influenced. However no Swede, English, Jamaican can make claims on Middle East. I am Muslim but I can't make claims on Saudia Arabia or Istanbul as the latter was the centre of the caliphate. Black Jamaicans for instance follow a Semite religion - Christianity from Middle East but have English as their mother tongue. That does not give them claims on Palestine or England.

So, yes as I said earlier Vedic culture went on to inform the language and religion that dominates you today. But from my perspective you people were colonized by a culture from the Indus. The vast majority of the people in the Ganga are converts to influences from the Indus. The Indus Valley was a major exporter of civilization.

Being Muslim gives me no claim to Saudia Arabia. Being Christian gives you no claim on Palestine. In the same way being Hindu does not give you claim on Indus. In the same way as a Korean Buddhist has no claim on the Ganga.

No denying that. Some from Indus migrated to Central Asia, Iran, Middle East etc But these numbers were tiny. Ganga has and had huge population. Indus by comparison had smaller population. Vastly majority of Ganga remained Ganga. I think your upper castes are probably from our part of the world. The Dalits on the other hand are natives of Ganga. However most of Ganga is dominated by aboriginals native to Ganga although you have recieved language/culture ingress from Indus.

Irony is that you forgot about your culture because of conversions first into buddhism and then to Islam. But Hinduism is not wiped out in Pakistan and Hindus are a minority in your country. They continue with their ancient culture to this day and this Aryan invasion theory can be put to rest once and for all. Now Hindus of Pakistan acquire more legitimacy as custodians of IVC legacy. In light of this don't you think that they should be given equal citizenship with rest of you.

Because of British India, which encompassed present day Pakistan, IVC was coined as Indian/Hindu culture. We cannot rewrite history of British historians and it continues to this day. You have to also remember, Hinduism was practiced all the way in Afghanistan and we have references to Hastinapur in Mahabharata which is in present day Afghanistan. So, in a way IVC is a shared history of all three countries India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

 

[my2cents]

A couple things here.

The Indus has been mentioned by many, including the Zoroastrian Avesta. That does not give Iranians the right to claim our civilization.

Bath Wells have been found in almost every civilization and ancient city, IVC cities having bath wells does not mean that it is now randomly an Indian civilization.

Seals of a person sitting in a cross legged position has been found all around the world. That does not mean they are doing yoga and now Indians and Hindus from Tamilnadu to Bali can claim these civilizations/cities.

Also, there is no genetic evidence to suggest mass migration from the Indus into the Gangetic Plains. The only significant trace of a migration was into Europe and Central Asia, not the Ganges. Even then, it was most likely just a portion; most of the people of IVC stayed in the fertile valley of the Indus.

People migrate to other regions through out history and that happens because of many reasons. The reason these well built cities of IVC were abandoned is still not established conclusively but it shows that they migrated to other places. Aryan invasion theory was widely held reason why they abandoned but it has no backing now. Other reasons proposed was that the river shifted its course and the region became arid and these people moved on to other greener pastures. Plague or other calamities is another explanation. Some may have moved to gangetic plains and influenced their beliefs on to the locals. It is possible because the original gods of pre-vedic period Indra and Varuna are still revered and have their place among the deities of Hindu pantheon.

Another possibility is that IVC could be a alien culture whose people and their culture vanished without leaving any traces to the present. But IVC is so large and widespread extending from north east Afghanistan, Pakistan and India that its culture got extinct is unlikely. It just thrived in some places like in India and got assimilated to local dravidian culture and in other areas like Afghanistan and Pakistan was subjugated to outside influences.

Persians referred to people of Indus as Hindus and this term is still used to this day. So, are the present day Hindus in India are the same people of Indus needs to be established conclusively. Presence of IVC sites in north west India like Rakhigarhi in Haryana and Dholavira in Gujrat, attest to a strong possibility of same people who may have migrated eastward into Gangetic plains.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

People migrate to other regions through out history and that happens because of many reasons. The reason these well built cities of IVC were abandoned is still not established conclusively but it shows that they migrated to other places.

Yes, to Afghanistan, Iran and Uzbekistan. Somehow I get feeling your will agree with the "migration" part but not the "destiniation" part.

Why? Because it goes against Gangacentrism? Just to keep the Ganga theme going I got a Indian Rickshaw puller to shift IVC to you guys. @django

 

[django]

Why? Because it goes against Gangacentrism? Just to keep the Ganga theme going I got a Indian Rickshaw puller to shift IVC to you guys. @django

I think it was @Tergon who posted some of the latest and most highly cited genetic studies in regards to the genetics of South Asia, according to the results obtained I believe their was only limited input from the Indus region to the Gangetic plains and that too of men only, all their claims of being one and the same only require the naked eye to confirm or deny, I think we all the know the answer to this particular query.Kudos Sir

 

[my2cents]

Yes, to Afghanistan, Iran and Uzbekistan. Somehow I get feeling your will agree with the "migration" part but not the "destiniation" part.

Why? Because it goes against Gangacentrism? Just to keep the Ganga theme going I got a Indian Rickshaw puller to shift IVC to you guys. @django

Whatever man, just agree to disagree. If you want to be exclusive about the culture, then go with whatever floats your boat. Right now not much has been deciphered about their script. When more information is gathered then I will taken informed decision. Until then I will stick to my opinion. Chao!

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I think it was @Tergon who posted some of the latest and most highly cited genetic studies in regards to the genetics of South Asia, according to the results obtained I believe their was only limited input from the Indus region to the Gangetic plains and that too of men only, all their claims of being one and the same only require the naked eye to confirm or deny, I think we all the know the answer to this particular query.Kudos Sir

Please call police now. Emergency 911.

 

[django]

Please call police now. Emergency 911.