Former French Magistrate makes startling allegations in book

[Bullhead]

Any Indian who thinks that there is no link of TTP and RAW he is also deceiving himself . I am waiting for another denial from Indian side. Because only we are bad .. tum loog tu doodh sey dhuley ho.

Relax bro,

No one is denying here. At least I am not.

Diplomatically. Pakistan has to accuse and India has to deny....Pakistan has to provide proof in front of world community and turn the world opinion against India. Thats precisely Pakistan Diplomats are paid for.

As of now , India diplomats are doing an excellent job...and Pakistani Diplomats are failing.

Blame your System for that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Not a sure proof that armymen were involved in Mumbai, but this coupled with Kasabs testimony does point the finger of suspicion towards this Rogue army.

Again, the accounts go back to 2001, when cooperation with the LeT was still high. That does not mean 'rogue officers' were not involved in Mumbai (former Army men have been involved in terrorism in Pakistan, and serving ones were busted during Musharraf's rule by the ISI for plotting to kill him and take control), so it is a possibility, BUT, it should not be mixed with institutional support for these actors.

 

[bandit]

Again, the accounts go back to 2001, when cooperation with the LeT was still high. That does not mean 'rogue officers' were not involved in Mumbai (former Army men have been involved in terrorism in Pakistan, and serving ones were busted during Musharraf's rule by the ISI for plotting to kill him and take control), so it is a possibility, BUT, it should not be mixed with institutional support for these actors.

Did you miss this part--But, since most of the officers of Lashkar belonged to the army, these inspections were doomed to draw a blank,


An organization that has most of its cadres drawn from the army and conducting terrorist activity on foreign soil, you seriously believe they wont be having institutional backing. And if such a large number of officers are rogue, one can only think of how deep the malaise goes in the instiotution, better disband the army then.

Reports keep popping up of taliban sympathizers and Pak army and ISI aiding them, and one then begins lending them credibility. If officers are consistently helping terrorists train it can't forever be dismissed as rogue case and such, the problem is in the institutions, they should be cleansed of this menace.

This approach is not just a threat to yourself but to others around you.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Did you miss this part--But, since most of the officers of Lashkar belonged to the army, these inspections were doomed to draw a blank,


An organization that has most of its cadres drawn from the army and conducting terrorist activity on foreign soil, you seriously believe they wont be having institutional backing. And if such a large number of officers are rogue, one can only think of how deep the malaise goes in the instiotution, better disband the army then.

Reports keep popping up of taliban sympathizers and Pak army and ISI aiding them, and one then begins lending them credibility. If officers are consistently helping terrorists train it can't forever be dismissed as rogue case and such, the problem is in the institutions, they should be cleansed of this menace.

This approach is not just a threat to yourself but to others around you.

Missed what part?

Please see my previous comments, I have responded to this issue already.

There is nothing of credibility suggesting institutional ISI support for terrorists. Nor have any motives for such support been offered. The LeT before 2001 was considered a legitemate organization by Pakistan to combat the IA in Indian occupied Kashmir.

Even Bruguiere calls these people 'rogue'. Perhaps the attitude that needs to change is amongst some Indians, of seeking to tie in the institutions to terrorism every chance they get, even when there is no evidence supporting that position.

 

[bandit]

Missed what part?

Please see my previous comments, I have responded to this issue already.

There is nothing of credibility suggesting institutional ISI support for terrorists. Nor have any motives for such support been offered. The LeT before 2001 was considered a legitemate organization by Pakistan to combat the IA in Indian occupied Kashmir.

Even Bruguiere calls these people 'rogue'. Perhaps the attitude that needs to change is amongst some Indians, of seeking to tie in the institutions to terrorism every chance they get, even when there is no evidence supporting that position.

I guess only a photograph of some talibans in your GHQ having lunch with Kayani would be proof enough for you.

As far as the attitude is concerned, I may think on that as soon as Pakistani trained terrorists planning attacks in Delhi stop cropping up in Chicago and millitants stop crossing over the LoC .

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I guess only a photograph of some talibans in your GHQ having lunch with Kayani would be proof enough for you.

That woudl be a start, but they might be there to negotiate a 'peace deal' so not necessarily conclusive either.

As far as the attitude is concerned, I may think on that as soon as Pakistani trained terrorists planning attacks in Delhi stop cropping up in Chicago and millitants stop crossing over the LoC .

The Pakistani government did not train those two or send them on their mission, and AFAIK, Pakistan arrested two individuals related to the case on information from the FBI.

I have even read one Indian report quoting Saleem Shehzad of Asia Times that Pakistan initially tipped off the FBI on the two suspects after the arrest of one member in Pakistan.

As for 'militants crossing the LoC', India occupied Kashmir and refused to implement UNSC resolutions it had agreed to to allow the Kashmiris to choose their destiny, and so support for the freedom of Kashmiris was just.

However, since 2002-03, Pakistan gave dialog a chance, stopped supporting cross-loc movement of insurgents, and the result is what Chidamabaram today described as 'violence at an all time low'.

So there is absolutely no substance to any of your argument blaming Pakistan - what is needed is recognition amongst Indians of the steps taken by Pakistan, for several years now, to engage with India peacefully, and a rejection of the usual canards and scapegoating.

 

[dabong1]

I guess only a photograph of some talibans in your GHQ having lunch with Kayani would be proof enough for you.

The same way the only proof you indians will accept is an indian RAW officer caught in full uniform with plans and guns to attack a pakistani city as true proof of indian involvment in FATA-Baluchistan.

As far as the attitude is concerned, I may think on that as soon as Pakistani trained terrorists planning attacks in Delhi stop cropping up in Chicago and millitants stop crossing over the LoC .

Attacking innocent is a terrorist attack but helping people get rid of oppression as the case is in IOK is right thing to do.....there called freedom fighters.

 

[bandit]

That woudl be a start, but they might be there to negotiate a 'peace deal' so not necessarily conclusive either.

See i thought so.

The Pakistani government did not train those two or send them on their mission, and AFAIK, Pakistan arrested two individuals related to the case on information from the FBI..

Agreed. But reading these 2 reports together one cannot help but join the dots.

I have even read one Indian report quoting Saleem Shehzad of Asia Times that Pakistan initially tipped off the FBI on the two suspects after the arrest of one member in Pakistan.

Good for you.

As for 'militants crossing the LoC', India occupied Kashmir and refused to implement UNSC resolutions it had agreed to to allow the Kashmiris to choose their destiny, and so support for the freedom of Kashmiris was just..

Did you also mention to the millitants that Pakistan does not support Azadi for the kashmiris rather only their accession to Pakistan or India.

Just support... sure.

However, since 2002-03, Pakistan gave dialog a chance, stopped supporting cross-loc movement of insurgents, and the result is what Chidamabaram today described as 'violence at an all time low'.

So there is absolutely no substance to any of your argument blaming Pakistan - what is needed is recognition amongst Indians of the steps taken by Pakistan, for several years now, to engage with India peacefully, and a rejection of the usual canards and scapegoating.

You have to forgive us poor souls for our misgivings about Pakistan and its sincere peace attempts, you see lat time poor old Vajpayee was riding the bus to Lahore, some of your rogue elements one of which included your army chief, sent a bunch of infiltrators up a mountain.

 

[bandit]

The same way the only proof you indians will accept is an indian RAW officer caught in full uniform with plans and guns to attack a pakistani city as true proof of indian involvment in FATA-Baluchistan.

We dont need proof, we're sure, there arent any terrorists in our army.

.

Attacking innocent is a terrorist attack but helping people get rid of oppression as the case is in IOK is right thing to do.....there called freedom fighters.

Last time i heard these terrorists trying to free a kashmiri, some 18 year old Kashmiri put bullets up their azzez. Sure she helped herself out of oppression.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

See i thought so.

You thought correctly that I am not buying Indian BS - no evidence no case.

Agreed. But reading these 2 reports together one cannot help but join the dots.

What dots? No connections in the second case at all, and the Bruguiere's report dates back to 2001, when LeT was a legitimate group being trained to fight in Kashmir against the IA. And in Bruguiere's report we only have this one terrorist's claims about what happened at those camps.

There remains no motive provided for the PA or ISI to support and plan terrorist attacks in Australia for example.

Good for you.

Good for you actually, since Pakistan prevented a possible major terrorist attack from occurring on Indian soil, despite the duplicity and hostility on display from the GoI when they go around making accusations and threats without any evidence.

Did you also mention to the millitants that Pakistan does not support Azadi for the kashmiris rather only their accession to Pakistan or India.

We are not the ones refusing to implement the UNSC resolutions and occupying them.

Just support... sure.

Only two options -support or not support. Glad you agree.

You have to forgive us poor souls for our misgivings about Pakistan and its sincere peace attempts, you see lat time poor old Vajpayee was riding the bus to Lahore, some of your rogue elements one of which included your army chief, sent a bunch of infiltrators up a mountain.

Only to try and return the favor over Siachen ...

But in any case, take it up with your military and political leadership that has itself accepted the dramatic drop in infiltration over the past decade almost, and the subsequent peace in Kashmir.

We have done our part - letting go of the irrational hatred of Pakistan, putting a stop to the scapegoating of Pakistan and the neurotic hostility displayed towards it is something only Indians can do, is your part of the process.

Good luck.

 

[bandit]

You thought correctly that I am not buying Indian BS - no evidence no case.

Stubbornly refusing to accept the facts even in the face of testimonies and evidences is something Pkaistanis have mastered i guess.

What dots? No connections in the second case at all, and the Bruguiere's report dates back to 2001, when LeT was a legitimate group being trained to fight in Kashmir against the IA. And in Bruguiere's report we only have this one terrorist's claims about what happened at those camps.

Only one terrorist?

Nobodys gonna try to convince you, there will just be repecussions like the KL bill which Pakistanis now abhor because they never face facts.

There remains no motive provided for the PA or ISI to support and plan terrorist attacks in Australia for example.

You can keep debating motives while terrorists keep going around killing innocents in the name of some twisted jehadi motto with your agencies in cahoots.

Good for you actually, since Pakistan prevented a possible major terrorist attack from occurring on Indian soil, despite the duplicity and hostility on display from the GoI when they go around making accusations and threats without any evidence.

Are you sure they did it as a favor to India and not as a direct order from Uncle Sam.

We are not the ones refusing to implement the UNSC resolutions and occupying them.

We have had a discussion on this, I stand by my point that pakistan had to stand down first as an aggressor.
The point however was that neither you guys talk of giving them freedom, you want Kashmir for yourself, and thats GOP's stand.

Only two options -support or not support. Glad you agree.

AKA terrorism

Only to try and return the favor over Siachen ...

But in any case, take it up with your military and political leadership that has itself accepted the dramatic drop in infiltration over the past decade almost, and the subsequent peace in Kashmir.

We have done our part - letting go of the irrational hatred of Pakistan, putting a stop to the scapegoating of Pakistan and the neurotic hostility displayed towards it is something only Indians can do, is your part of the process.

Good luck.

Stabbing our backs while charading peace thats what we have learnt.

Your agencies seem to have a neurosis with peace with India, an irrational hatred of India, whenever there is some progress theres a kargil or Mumbai, interesting timing isnt it?

 

[Slides]

No,he isnt the same man.

Its a french professor named Aymeric Chauprade who wrote a book claiming 9/11 was inside job .

Birds of a feather flock together. The past experience of the French being the most into conspiracy theories is not lost on anyone.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Stubbornly refusing to accept the facts even in the face of testimonies and evidences is something Pkaistanis have mastered i guess.

What evidence, what case? Let me refresh your memory:

1. Mumbai attacks - no evidence that the PA, ISI or any other Pakistani institution supported or was aware of the attacks. No motive either, since dialog with India initiated under Musharraf, in consultation and ostensibly with the approval of the rest of the Army leadership, had progressed a great deal.

2. Bruguiere's comments - dating back to 2001, based on the testimony of a criminal, and even he refers to 'rogue agents or officers'. Again, absolutely no motive for the PA/ISI to support terrorism in Australia, Europe and what not.

3. The recent arrests in Chicago. No evidence of the PA, ISI or any other Pakistani institution supporting them. In fact, as I pointed out, Pakistani intelligence may have tipped off the Americans about the plot, and at the very least arrested two men linked to it after the plot came to light.

Furthermore, the ISI has had very specific motives when it has supported insurgents.

1. In Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation, it collaborated with the CIA and Saudi GID to train, equip and infiltrate Mujahideen into Afghanistan.

2. Post Soviet withdrawal, it (with funding from the Saudis and UAE, and indirect support from the US for a limited time) supported the Taliban as a 'pro-Pakistan' faction while India, Iran and Russia supported the Northern Alliance warlords.

3. In Kashmir, it supported Kashmiri and non-Kashmiri groups in fighting Indian Security Forces as India reneged on its commitment to implement the UNSC resolutions and unilaterally annexed J&K.

Pakistan's support for insurgents has had very specific goals tied into its national security and disputes with India. Promoting terrorism in Mumbai, Australia, Denmark and Timbuktu has no bering on Pakistan, and the allegations that Pakistan has done so or wishes to do so are nothing but canards by Indians who desperately wish to see the Pakistani state and its institutions tied to such acts. Sorry, but there is no evidence to support your contention.

Only one terrorist?

Nobodys gonna try to convince you, there will just be repecussions like the KL bill which Pakistanis now abhor because they never face facts.

KLL is not a repercussion, it is if nothing else free money. Pakistan is under no obligation to do anything, and even the US has made that clear. If the US thinks its metrics are not met (and there is a Presidential waiver built in - how often do you think that will be used so long as the US is fighting in Afghanistan ) then it can withold the money, which means Pakistan just does not get free money, and we continue with the resources we have.

You can keep debating motives while terrorists keep going around killing innocents in the name of some twisted jehadi motto with your agencies in cahoots.

Please see first fewe paragraphs - there remains no motive and no evidence that Pakistani agencies are in cahoots with terrorists. The instances where Pakistani institutions have supported insurgents, and the reasons behind them I have clearly explained, and other that your 'feelings' you have not provided anything to back up the canards of Pakistan supports terrorists, which I only imagine is a sentiment bolstered by that neurtotic hatred of Paksitan Indians appear to be brainwashed with by their government and media.

If it was not an irrational hatred, one would expect to see Indians recognize that they have no case, yet here we see that even when Bruguiere points to 'rogue agents' you cannot accept it and have to invent your own alternate reality.

Are you sure they did it as a favor to India and not as a direct order from Uncle Sam.

There are reports indicating we arrested them and possibly prevented a major terrorist attack in Denmark and India, fo which you should be thankful as an Indian -what evidence do you have this was soley on the behest of the US?

We have had a discussion on this, I stand by my point that pakistan had to stand down first as an aggressor.
The point however was that neither you guys talk of giving them freedom, you want Kashmir for yourself, and thats GOP's stand.

Yes - and I pointed out clearly where the UNSC resolutions call for tripartite negotitions to dtermine the conditions of withdrawal, before any withdrawal. In any case - India cannot demand that XYZ condition should be implemented until she once again commit to implementing the UNSC resolutions.

AKA terrorism

AKA Freedom Fighters - just like Bhagat Singh, Mangal Pandey, The US War of Independence etc.

Stabbing our backs while charading peace thats what we have learnt.

Just returning the favor after your reneging on the UNSC resolutions, 1971 and Siachen.

Your agencies seem to have a neurosis with peace with India, an irrational hatred of India, whenever there is some progress theres a kargil or Mumbai, interesting timing isnt it?

Irrational conspiracy theories in Indian heads is what it is.

Musharraf had complete control over the Military, promotions etc. for almost ten years. In that time he was the one who initiated the dialogue on 'out of the box' solutions for Kashmir, ostensibly with the consent of the rest of the military (those who disagreed were moved out, and there were a few Lt. Gen's who were).

So I see no reason to suspect Pakistani institutions - however, there is an irrational hatred evidence amongst some Indians, such as that you have displayed here, that cannot even stomach the idea that Pakistan saved India from a terrorist attack, and seeks to denigrate Pakistan for it instead of thank it.

So is there an 'extremist Indian' conspiracy here with Mumbai? Or perhaps the truth is simpler, and a terrorist group managed to attack Mumbai with decent planning and training, as it did with the GHQ, Police academy attacks, 911 etc.

There is no aversion to peace on Pakistan's side - there does appear to be an aversion to rapid movement towards normalization on the Indian side.

 

[Nomad]

AM I am trying to connect the dots here I have a few questions.

CIA officers accompanied by Pakistani officials made four inspections of the camp, part of an agreement in which Pakistan had promised to prevent foreign militants from training with Lashkar, Bruguiere writes.

I always felt we as a nation only cared about the terrorists attacking us or other western countries. The above statement makes that amply clear. As long as the LET was focused on Kasmir we did not care. It is this kind of short sighted thinking that let 911 happen.

This was 2001 - it was after the Parliament attacks that Pakistan started to dissasociate from the LeT, Hafiz Saeed left the organization etc.

So there is no 'deception' in denying any institutional role in the Mumbai attacks, because there is no evidence to support that allegation.

Here is what I am wondering. Pakistan provides funds, trains, and arms LET. When it attacks the Indian parliment Pakistan chose to "dissascociate" itself. Does it mean GOP (or PA or ISI) decides no more funds, or no more training, or no more arms? Why did the GOP et al, not disband the entire organization? Thus GOP has culpability in the Parliment attacks directly (by not disbanding the LET) and indirectly Mubai attacks.

Post Soviet withdrawal, it (with funding from the Saudis and UAE, and indirect support from the US for a limited time) supported the Taliban as a 'pro-Pakistan' faction while India, Iran and Russia supported the Northern Alliance warlords

Please do not include the US with the support of the Taliban. After the Soviet withdrawal the US and GOP supported for a short time either Hematyar or Haqani (I am not sure which), however they did not accomplish much, but when the Taliban looked liked they could take over the GOP switched horses to support them (S2 has a wonderful post on the details) .

 

[bandit]

What evidence, what case? Let me refresh your memory:

1. Mumbai attacks - no evidence that the PA, ISI or any other Pakistani institution supported or was aware of the attacks. No motive either, since dialog with India initiated under Musharraf, in consultation and ostensibly with the approval of the rest of the Army leadership, had progressed a great deal.

2. Bruguiere's comments - dating back to 2001, based on the testimony of a criminal, and even he refers to 'rogue agents or officers'. Again, absolutely no motive for the PA/ISI to support terrorism in Australia, Europe and what not.

3. The recent arrests in Chicago. No evidence of the PA, ISI or any other Pakistani institution supporting them. In fact, as I pointed out, Pakistani intelligence may have tipped off the Americans about the plot, and at the very least arrested two men linked to it after the plot came to light.

Furthermore, the ISI has had very specific motives when it has supported insurgents.

1. In Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation, it collaborated with the CIA and Saudi GID to train, equip and infiltrate Mujahideen into Afghanistan.

2. Post Soviet withdrawal, it (with funding from the Saudis and UAE, and indirect support from the US for a limited time) supported the Taliban as a 'pro-Pakistan' faction while India, Iran and Russia supported the Northern Alliance warlords.

3. In Kashmir, it supported Kashmiri and non-Kashmiri groups in fighting Indian Security Forces as India reneged on its commitment to implement the UNSC resolutions and unilaterally annexed J&K.

Pakistan's support for insurgents has had very specific goals tied into its national security and disputes with India. Promoting terrorism in Mumbai, Australia, Denmark and Timbuktu has no bering on Pakistan, and the allegations that Pakistan has done so or wishes to do so are nothing but canards by Indians who desperately wish to see the Pakistani state and its institutions tied to such acts. Sorry, but there is no evidence to support your contention.


KLL is not a repercussion, it is if nothing else free money. Pakistan is under no obligation to do anything, and even the US has made that clear. If the US thinks its metrics are not met (and there is a Presidential waiver built in - how often do you think that will be used so long as the US is fighting in Afghanistan ) then it can withold the money, which means Pakistan just does not get free money, and we continue with the resources we have.


Please see first fewe paragraphs - there remains no motive and no evidence that Pakistani agencies are in cahoots with terrorists. The instances where Pakistani institutions have supported insurgents, and the reasons behind them I have clearly explained, and other that your 'feelings' you have not provided anything to back up the canards of Pakistan supports terrorists, which I only imagine is a sentiment bolstered by that neurtotic hatred of Paksitan Indians appear to be brainwashed with by their government and media.

If it was not an irrational hatred, one would expect to see Indians recognize that they have no case, yet here we see that even when Bruguiere points to 'rogue agents' you cannot accept it and have to invent your own alternate reality.

There are reports indicating we arrested them and possibly prevented a major terrorist attack in Denmark and India, fo which you should be thankful as an Indian -what evidence do you have this was soley on the behest of the US?


Yes - and I pointed out clearly where the UNSC resolutions call for tripartite negotitions to dtermine the conditions of withdrawal, before any withdrawal. In any case - India cannot demand that XYZ condition should be implemented until she once again commit to implementing the UNSC resolutions.

AKA Freedom Fighters - just like Bhagat Singh, Mangal Pandey, The US War of Independence etc.

Just returning the favor after your reneging on the UNSC resolutions, 1971 and Siachen.

Irrational conspiracy theories in Indian heads is what it is.

Musharraf had complete control over the Military, promotions etc. for almost ten years. In that time he was the one who initiated the dialogue on 'out of the box' solutions for Kashmir, ostensibly with the consent of the rest of the military (those who disagreed were moved out, and there were a few Lt. Gen's who were).

So I see no reason to suspect Pakistani institutions - however, there is an irrational hatred evidence amongst some Indians, such as that you have displayed here, that cannot even stomach the idea that Pakistan saved India from a terrorist attack, and seeks to denigrate Pakistan for it instead of thank it.

So is there an 'extremist Indian' conspiracy here with Mumbai? Or perhaps the truth is simpler, and a terrorist group managed to attack Mumbai with decent planning and training, as it did with the GHQ, Police academy attacks, 911 etc.

There is no aversion to peace on Pakistan's side - there does appear to be an aversion to rapid movement towards normalization on the Indian side.

Nobody can help you if you persistently refuse to see the evidences presented to you. The author clearly mentions that the agencies were in bed with terrorists. Moreover you try to justify your support for these terrorists even when your country is on the verge of being torn apart by them.

Support for this terrorism is already costing you. It is your irrational hatred for India and its people that makes you support terrorism on its soil. Pakistan needs to do a lot more to undo the years of terrorist activity it has unleashed over India than couple of terrorists arrested on USA's boding.

Till then continue living in your delusional make believe world while the others take action to bring you in line .