For Pakistan, time to try India as a friend (resurrection)

[footmarks]

Just look at those two charts in the first post and ask yourself, WHY? Why so much difference between India & pakistan? If you can come up with something positive to improve your situation, its good for pakistan. Otherwise, carry on the good work in the same way. I will still be happy even if nothing improves for pakistan.

 

[Contrarian]

The problem with sole nuclear security.. is well, its a samson option. Its a pandora's box of decision that will have to be taken in case thing spiral out of control.
What is going to be the threshold of nuclear war?
if the first strike is to be carried out .. how much and where?
Whats the end then??.. MAD?

Considering the focus being projected on the safety of our nukes by Western sources.. Its becoming less of an if and more of a when they ask us to relinquish them.
And once those nukes go, there is nothing stopping the Hawks in India to look for an excuse in letting their massive war machine loose.

There is this thing that one has to consider. 1-2 decades back Pakistan & India were roughly equal in almost every sense of the word. Today there is a significant disparity. 1-2 decades down the line, if the trends continue, the disparity will be humongous.

As India keeps growing more than Pakistan, there will be an increase in Indian Nationalism. As a result of the advances in economy, Indian military will also correspondingly become that much better. This will also spur the hawks in GoI of the day to take actions against Pakistan. The GoI which till today under threat of an unacceptable damage in retaliation to India dithers on punitive action maybe tempted to take that option then.

Does not the polity of Pakistan and its Generals understand that it would be best to make peace and most importantly trade with India NOW, rather than in the future? Or do they see the future as different from what it is now?
We realize we will never get , does Pakistan not realize they will not get Indian Kashmir? And best to go around it rather than through it?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Does not the polity of Pakistan and its Generals understand that it would be best to make peace and most importantly trade with India NOW, rather than in the future? Or do they see the future as different from what it is now?
We realize we will never get , does Pakistan not realize they will not get Indian Kashmir? And best to go around it rather than through it?

You think having a big economy in 1-2 decades, is going to help your border disputes?

China is already the 2nd biggest economy in the world, but do you think Indians care about that when it comes to territorial disputes?

 

[Bhairava]

And this is why we can't be friends. The whole terrorism that the GoI cries about stems from the issue of Kashmir. I do not see how you can say that you have no real benefits of resolving the Kashmir issue. Is there any other place in India where supposed Pakistan based militant groups are operating from? No, its just Kashmir, solve the issue and you won't have the terrorism/backlash/radicalism that you are so terrified of.

That is exactly just a 'crying' point to put the Pakistanis on back foot internationally and we are doing it pretty well.

Statistically there has been just one or two minor attacks (German Bakery and Varanasi) in the last 3 years with about a total of 7 or 8 casualties and that too maybe the work of some local jihadi fundoos.So there is no serious threat of Pak backed terror right now in India that we are dying to make peace with Pakistan.

We can very well afford to keep the region in status quo for as long as we can because it doesn't hurt us one bit. But Pakistan ?

Read this article, a long one but may interest you - Monkey Trap

I think Indians should focus on India, & let Pakistanis focus on Pakistan & its policies.

Exactly what India has been saying for the past 63 years. Good that Pakistanis are becoming wiser by the day.

You think having a big economy in 1-2 decades, is going to help your border disputes?

China is already the 2nd biggest economy in the world, but do you think Indians care about that when it comes to territorial disputes?

Except that we are not afflicted with a paranoia of China-centricism and all our actions - economic, military and politics revolves around the 'core' issue of border disputes with China.

Pakistan OTOH ,self admittedly, runs on the core issue of Kashmir and the impending threat of survival from India with religious edicts thrown in between to support it.

You have to be a Pakistani or an Indian to understand what I am saying.

 

[StormShadow]

The best solution is to have open borders for Kashmir. And that is also the ONLY solution.

NO WAY...the border has to be fenced, mined and patrolled.

 

[Avatar]

You think having a big economy in 1-2 decades, is going to help your border disputes?

China is already the 2nd biggest economy in the world, but do you think Indians care about that when it comes to territorial disputes?

The only way China's economic power can help her in the border disputes with India is when the Chinese economy grows to such an extent that it's impossible for India to maintain a minimum credible deterrence vis a vis China. That means the disparity has to be something like what's currently between India and Pakistan or perhaps even more. Another factor to consider is India's nuclear capability (which is harder to take out since India has a no first use policy)

India's economy in 1-2 decades will help India vs Pakistan because Pakistan's economy is projected to grow at a much slower rate, which means the difference between the two will be much bigger than now. India's defence budget will be one of the biggest in the world and I cannot say about Pakistan. Even if they get out of their current problems and manage to jump start the economy once again, they need to have a higher growth rate than India to reduce the current disparity (almost 1:10)

I guess this economic powerhouse helps China to deal with smaller, weaker, non nuclear neighbors.

 

[kawaraj]

just want to mention,

1. if we can fight you down, we will nuke you. does this make what your comment nonsense? think about it, it's a deterrence balance.

2. our GDP per head is even better than yours. China's GDP per head is FIVE times yours. think about it, in a traditional war, it's not all amount that counts, efficiency does, too.

 

[Spring Onion]

That is because India cannot be trusted. It may conceal its malicious intentions behind a friendly face and continue to instigate trouble in Pakistan by funding and arming covert groups. Mukti Bahini, BLA, MQM anyone remembers them?

bharat does not conceal its state terrorism infested designs against Pakistan.

anway bharatis are the last people on earth who can be trusted for us and who can be friends to us.

 

[Bhairava]

bharat does not conceal its state terrorism infested designs against Pakistan.

anway bharatis are the last people on earth who can be trusted for us and who can be friends to us.

Actually you would not have posted this if you had cared to read the entire thread.

We, Indians, don't want Pakistan to trust us in the short run and keep spending on arms.

 

[Meengla]

Where is agnostic. He always says India is not the reason for any of Pakistan's problems!

I can't speak for @Agno. We are two different people. Same goals--making Pakistan to prosper-- but with different approaches. In my understanding peace with India is the topmost factor to reverse Pakistan's decline. I am well aware of the situation in the Indian part of Kashmir. But I am more aware of the situation in the rest of Pakistan because of the un-winnable war Pakistan has been with India since 1947. Read Kunwar Idris article again. He is no novice in the Pakistani journalism. Good riddance to this 'security state' paradigm.

Anyway, while I don't buy this GDP difference thingy too much--Pakistan too will rebound once this WOT winds down--I think true potentials for Pakistan AND the region will come only once we learn to get along. Kashmir is the bone of contention. In my opinion India can keep what it has provided justice is given to all Kashmiris. In the end, as Kunwar Idris' article implies, the goal is the betterment of the lives of Kashmiris.

Shortly after the OBL raid I had 'appealed' to the Indians to grab this opportunity, this tectonic shift in Pakistani thinking that America--not India--is the larger threat. I say that same thing here. It is NOT that Pakistan is necessarily too weak to confront India. If a tiny country like Sri Lanka can sustain all that about a quarter century and then comes out strong then so can Pakistan. It is that--for the first time since the early 50s--Pakistanis are ready to breakaway from the Western embrace and join the region fully. India gains a lot with a larger heart.

 

[Mabs]

NO WAY...the border has to be fenced, mined and patrolled.

Are you gona volunteer for that task then ?

 

[Mabs]

That is exactly just a 'crying' point to put the Pakistanis on back foot internationally and we are doing it pretty well.

Statistically there has been just one or two minor attacks (German Bakery and Varanasi) in the last 3 years with about a total of 7 or 8 casualties and that too maybe the work of some local jihadi fundoos.So there is no serious threat of Pak backed terror right now in India that we are dying to make peace with Pakistan.

We can very well afford to keep the region in status quo for as long as we can because it doesn't hurt us one bit. But Pakistan ?

Read this article, a long one but may interest you - Monkey Trap



Exactly what India has been saying for the past 63 years. Good that Pakistanis are becoming wiser by the day.



Except that we are not afflicted with a paranoia of China-centricism and all our actions - economic, military and politics revolves around the 'core' issue of border disputes with China.

Pakistan OTOH ,self admittedly, runs on the core issue of Kashmir and the impending threat of survival from India with religious edicts thrown in between to support it.

You have to be a Pakistani or an Indian to understand what I am saying.

Regardless of no major tangible terrorist threat being present at the current time for India, the resentment and the will to alter that will remain so long the Kashmir issue is not solved. You may keep the status-quo as it is but you would also be fueling the sentiments of the people who believe that the Kashmir issues needs to be solved through all means possible. If you are willing to take that bet then you are just stoking the fire and not doing any favor to your country in the long-term.

Some cuts can be closed with a band-aid and they don't give you any problems in the future but some keep opening up, and the only way to sew them up for good is to get to the root of the wound and fix it. Maintaining the status-quo is a band-aid solution while solving the issue is a permanent fix which would eliminate the bacteria for good, take your pick.

 

[Contrarian]

And you do realize that we have restarted dialogue. We want to promote trade and cross investment. It is Pakistan who keeps comming up with statements that unless the "Core" issue is resolved, NOTHING else can move forward. India is ALL for trade & investments to work as CBM's. Some one in Pakistan has to step up and accept it.

Lastly, Pakistani's need to understand, you can use all the metaphors you want, about band-aids & permanently killing the bacteria and what not. But there is NOT going to be a plebicite, and Kashmir is NOT going out of the Indian Union. Pakistan can make kashmir a better place by doing other things instead. If you can move beyond that, well & good. If not, then its just sad and status quo is maintained - which again is not a problem.

 

[Bhairava]

Regardless of no major tangible terrorist threat being present at the current time for India, the resentment and the will to alter that will remain so long the Kashmir issue is not solved. You may keep the status-quo as it is but you would also be fueling the sentiments of the people who believe that the Kashmir issues needs to be solved through all means possible. If you are willing to take that bet then you are just stoking the fire and not doing any favor to your country in the long-term.

And they will vent where there is least pressure , which currently is Pakistan. So how exactly is it beneficial to India in voluntarily yearning for peace with Pakistan ?

Some cuts can be closed with a band-aid and they don't give you any problems in the future but some keep opening up, and the only way to sew them up for good is to get to the root of the wound and fix it. Maintaining the status-quo is a band-aid solution while solving the issue is a permanent fix which would eliminate the bacteria for good, take your pick.

Solving will take place if that 'solution' is in a way which India perceives is in its favour. We simply hold the aces right now and we are not willing to come down and really it makes no sense to come down.

Pak must agree that the state of Jammu and Kashmir is Indian territory and then only any peace can take place. All the plebiscite,jugular vein has long been consigned to the trashbin of history.

We want peace, but at a place and at a time of our choosing, not Pakistan's.

What I may be saying may be a bit harsh, but you got to realize that it is the harsh ground reality as well. Pakistan today is in absolutely no position to 'force' India on anything.

 

[Rafi]

There is no chance of peace with india.