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for PAF What a Mirage offeres that F-16/ JF 16 don't/ Can't/ Won't

Mirage offer a plane for which we have full production and over haul platform, in essence it is as good as the JF17 Thunder program

The ability to freshen up the Mirage Birds is a great advantage as the planes are maintained near mint condition

F16 Unfortunately due to it requiring regular checkups and upgrades , is a hindrance , we have to fly it in limited missions to keep mileage low. Unless we can get a engine replacement whenever we want

At various demonstrations when ever a Mirage flies by or performs a trick it feels it has more aggressive thrust no different then any new generation planes. I would imagine beating a mirage in 1 vs 1 Dog fight is not an easy task flying wise it is good as any plane and under right pilot is deadly

Mirages flown by Pakistani pilots have also shown great capability in low altitude flying

I feel with Arrival of the JF17 Block III , the technological difference would certainly be in favor of the modern JF17 Block III


Project Azm's Rise will eventually lead to a full fledged departure from Mirage Platform
but if Pakistan had the Technology to manufacture the body of the Mirage it was technically possible that we would have created our own Mirage Variant 100% Locally with New Avionics


J10D could serve as a proper replacement for Mirage being also a delta Wing Fighter


The biggest draw back for Pakistan for Mirage Jets is perhaps that we never got ability to make brand new Body fuselage , so we have to buy older ones , have them go thru the overhaul practice and recover what we can

In Present age 2019 , with China's help we could get the technology to replicate Mirage's core body elements but then it raises questions why bother ???

We can just get a J10D platform, the new thrust vectoring engine would give us a capability we never had before plus we will get all the delta wing benefits with J10D platform


The one question I always had was , CAN WE if we wanted make a brand new Mirage !!! not just a rebuild "MIRAGE V, NG"



Specs would be
  • Advance Avionics with Helmet Based Targeting
  • New Engine from China
  • AESA radar
  • Large Digital Display for Pilot
As I noted in many threads before; there is no reason why this work could not be sourced inhouse or even get Chinese firms to replicate the frame given the materials used are widely available and if not better than before. It is a question of willingness and foresight.
 
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A WELL known(inside out), highly customizable, decent ranged stable strike platform.
Mirage fleet ticks these features (decent range is a subjective term though)

which one that be? JF 17 is known and customizable rest of the features I dont know

so in the end is it
same old mirage sourced from other forces or something that doesn't exist?
 
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Mirage fleet ticks these features (decent range is a subjective term though)

which one that be? JF 17 is known and customizable rest of the features I dont know

so in the end is it
same old mirage sourced from other forces or something that doesn't exist?
The JF isnt that stable at low level versus the pure delta.
The Mirage also has better clearance for mounting our longer range stand off systems.

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
PAF got into a habit of inducting Multirole aircrafts through F-86 Sabres. F-86 successfully shot down aircrafts and also conducted strike missions. F-104, a rocket with wings, was considered more of a air superiority aircraft and didn't suit any role eventually.
Mirage III was inducted in PAF as Multirole aircraft. The same pattern continued with F-16 in 1980's and now with JF-17. It also had a recce variant, atleast 3 recon versions were inducted. Before the Mirage III recce version, T-33 was tasked for recon missions. Those who say that Mirage-III has the speed should know that primarily T-33 lacked speed to fly in IAF's dense AD network therefore Mirage III recon version was deemed necessary for this task. Interestingly, PAF made F-86 night intercept capable and this was also considered a requirement for Mirage-III from the onset. PAF's pattern has been same in many areas of aircraft induction. Just like single seat induction of JF-17, PAF went for single seat Mirage III and inducted a squadron 40+ years ago. Afterwards 3 two-seat trainer versions were ordered. The single seat version was made all weather and night missions capable for strike missions. In 1971 war, Mirage III conducted air defense and took part in strike missions as well as Recon missions. They were equipped with Aim-9 and few French R-350. Aim-9 was considered in high esteem by PAF, so Mirage III compatibility to Aim-9 was of utmost priority.


did it change to dedicated strike role later?
Mirage-III was envisioned as a fighter and used as such both by Israelis and then PAF. Mirage-III evolved into Mirage-V which was considered a strike oriented aircraft. Mirage-V has an extended nose, said to have two extra pylons. For ease of understanding, basically F-16 Block 15 evolving into Block-40 and above with strike role in mind. Therefore Mirage-V was tested and inducted with a variety of air to surface weaponry (bombs, missiles, nuclear weapons), including naval support weaponry.
If you look at Project ROSE, Mirage-III as upgraded as an air defense fighter and Mirage-V was upgraded as a strike fighter with excellent night strike capability.


what made it so special?
For PAF, Mirage-III was a step up than F-86. The Sabre had bore the brunt of 1965 war in all roles. B-57's were bombers and F-104 had little to offer. Just like today, the way JF-17 compliments F-16, the same way Mirage-III complimented F-86 Sabre. While the USA put sanctions in 1965 war, there was a requirement for another non-US aircraft. In 1960's and 1970's, it was the Mirage-III and today its JF-17.

Secondly, Mirage-III could be upgraded and carry a variety of weaponry, US and Non-US ordnance. This made the aircraft very versatile and flexible for upgrades. Ra'ad ALCM is just one example after 2000's.

Thirdly,ROSE upgrade is a very budget efficient upgrade that 68 x Mirages have gone through, even being a French aircraft. Upgrading same number of F-16's did cost billions of USD.

Fourthly, one of the few aircraft of its era to conduct terrain hugging flights.


what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
Israelis got Mirage-III for Air defense role, but then invested in Strike version Kfir . Mirage III strike payload was moderate, but due to its multirole capability, it was used as bomber by Israelis. In later wars, Mirage III was primarily used in air defense role. Argentinians had difficult time using Mirage-III in strike role and shifted them to air defense role. South Africans resorted to use Mirage-III for air defense roles also which later evolved into Cheetah version.

Mirage-V was a different story. It's kfir variant was extensively used by Israelis for strike missions, even before and after induction of F-16's. Another variant Nesher was also flown by israelis in air defense missions and performed extremely well.

why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?
F-16 is better suited for strike role. The embargo saga of F-16's made Mirage the primary strike fighter for PAF. Had PAF acquired 111 F-16 A/B's and follow up orders of C/D versions, the story of Mirage III and Mirage V would have ended at some point in PAF and not dragged on till today. 40 decent F-16's and above 100 Mirages with few upgraded ones was all that PAF had in 1990's.
Mirages were also the first aircraft to get BVR capability in PAF. Having said that, Mirage-III and V both could carry as assortment of weaponry as stated earlier, which gave PAF flexibility to conduct strike missions. The upgrades for F-16 Block 15's had a bigger cost, still PAF made them capable to fire AGM-65, carry ALTIS II targeting pods and possibility to fire AGM-84 Harpoon apart from legacy Mark-82/84 bombs.


what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
A follow up true representative of Mirage-III would be Mirage-2000 and then probably Rafale.
JF-17 has limitations in design which can be overcome with structural changes, if PAF is interested.

would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its its capability that comes with speed?

Speed is just one side of the game. Electronics (data link+controlling UAV, EW, radar, sensors), ability to carry all types of weapons (including AAM's, ALCM's,Missiles, Bombs) along with stealthy features (design + internal payload too) as well as reduced RCS is the future.


or like for like replacement of Delta wing jet like Grippen or J-10? Mirage 2000 (their production stopped their spares maybe an issue)
PAF interest has been in many planes, just like window shopping. Gripen was evaluated and deemed a certain possibility. J-10 was almost ordered. Similar story with Mirage-2000 in 1990's continuing up til now. Its not about replacing a delta with delta, PAF has to induct an aircraft which suits its requirements. So far PAF is only interested in inducting JF-17's (newer blocks) and F-16's (any block). In aviation industry, the future is stealth, not delta really. This is why project Azm has become a part of PAF.
Correction: Gripen was never given too much interest due to the JF-17.

The PAF wanted M2k(and still does). But if not available the J-10 can serve that role.
 
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As I noted in many threads before; there is no reason why this work could not be sourced inhouse or even get Chinese firms to replicate the frame given the materials used are widely available and if not better than before. It is a question of willingness and foresight.

Very pertinent.
and it is a shame we haven't setup a full Mirage spares line yet.
 
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Even though a single squadron of a modern jet fighter such as F-22 or F-35 could possibly shoot down all of the PAF & IAF fighters in air to air combat; one squadron has too few numbers to support ground troops in a multi-front war.

In my humble opinion, there is no real substitute for numbers. Ideally one would like quality with quantity. Regrettably, economic constraints make it impossible in the case of Pakistan. Mirage V is essentially a ground attack aircraft and the Egyptians ones have terrain following radar with night capability; once refurbished, these would be a potent addition to PAF ground attack capability at a fraction of the cost of modern fighters.
 
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The one question I always had was , CAN WE if we wanted make a brand new Mirage !!! not just a rebuild "MIRAGE V, NG"


Specs would be
  • Advance Avionics with Helmet Based Targeting
  • New Engine from China
  • AESA radar
  • Large Digital Display for Pilot

Innovative idea ....
Pakistan can fly mirages for next 15 -20 years more .
We got facility and experience and we got the ammo . Mirage production is long dead .
Make a deal with France to reopen pruduction line with the name Mirage X . Limit expenses and cost per unit under 45 mln each .put Rafael DNA in it . Advanced avionics , HMD , fly by wire , Aesa radar , new missiles and bombs with comb of old ones .
In Low cost you will get one potent eurpean tech jet which can stay here for next 2 more decades .

For me, a good replacement of Mirages is Su-35. It can provide top cover, highly maneuverable, can act as bomb truck if needed, and brings many additional benefits.
No .
On 26 feb IAF used Mirages not su30 for ground attack .Su30 gave air cover while mirages droped the load .same was done by Paf .

What is the utility of these Mirages if they don’t conduct strikes deep inside Afganistan day in and day out?!?!

Reason is USAF ....

Even though a single squadron of a modern jet fighter such as F-22 or F-35 could possibly shoot down all of the PAF & IAF fighters in air to air combat; one squadron has too few numbers to support ground troops in a multi-front war

This is much more exaggerated claim .
 
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This is much more exaggerated claim .

Indians have 6 or 7 squadrons of Jaguars (about 118) in the ground attack/interdiction role. Jaguar is also nearly 50 years old and was retired by the French in 2005. Mirage V with terrain following radar & night capability should be able to perform as well as the IAF Jaguars in a similar role. Why did you think my claim was exaggerated?
 
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No .
On 26 feb IAF used Mirages not su30 for ground attack .Su30 gave air cover while mirages droped the load .same was done by Paf .

What Indians did does not inform our plans. What PAF did can change based on an updated doctrine.
 
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As I noted in many threads before; there is no reason why this work could not be sourced inhouse or even get Chinese firms to replicate the frame given the materials used are widely available and if not better than before. It is a question of willingness and foresight.
lack of setup in metallurgy in Pakistan is given as a reason for that gap

The PAF wanted M2k(and still does). But if not available the J-10 can serve that role.
interesting fact about M2K. re J-10 as a viable replacement I also thought the same.
 
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The JF isnt that stable at low level versus the pure delta.
The Mirage also has better clearance for mounting our longer range stand off systems.

Isnt that the whole point of FBW!
Mirage 3/5 predate that era so the design favors the low level flight profile but any new fighter can fly low to the ground thanks to millions of lines of code. Stability should not be an issue at all. That is why you can see Tornado fly nap of the earth at high speeds.
 
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There is no superiority of mirage over Jf-17 simple &500k dollars per piece availability from various seller vs 20 million dollars for if-17 plus wait time as $$ are short supply
Mirages are great platform should be retired but as pac can recover for few hundred thousand dollar old stock so why not vs 15-20 million dollar Jr-17

If-17 has better range and now carry more load then mirage 3/5 and block 1 werre a2a role, block 2 brought a2sea role plus Airedale’s refuelling and now block 3 bringing a2surface attack with laser pod aesa hmd and perhaps irst
 
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There is no superiority of mirage over Jf-17 simple &500k dollars per piece availability from various seller vs 20 million dollars for if-17 plus wait time as $$ are short supply
Mirages are great platform should be retired but as pac can recover for few hundred thousand dollar old stock so why not vs 15-20 million dollar Jr-17

If-17 has better range and now carry more load then mirage 3/5 and block 1 werre a2a role, block 2 brought a2sea role plus Airedale’s refuelling and now block 3 bringing a2surface attack with laser pod aesa hmd and perhaps irst

Not to mention that the AESA radar will enable JF-17 to fly at ultra low levels with more carefree handling (less pilot workload) using terrain avoidance. Mirages will never get to that level in automation and situational awareness.
 
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These are very old metal alloys; for a country that can produce bellows for centrifuges; this should be no brainers.
I hear you.capability maybe there. our Dr Qadir Khan was not a nuclear scientist as commonly believed but a metallurgist, the know how and expertise maybe there (I say maybe in case requirement becomes for better grade say JF-17 block 3 grade alloys) but what is lacking is focus and allocation of resources.
 
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