Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando - 50 dead and 53 injured

[Viper0011.]

Then we should ban base on caliber, not appearance.

The Mossberg MVP Patrol, the Ruger Mini 14, and the AR-15 have the same caliber of 5.56. The Mossberg is bolt action and will require more effort to operate. The Ruger Mini 14 is semi-auto and essentially is the same as the AR-15 without all the 'scary' appliances. You can look them up. The Ruger is less expensive and has the same rate of fire as the AR-15: as quick as your index finger can pull the trigger.

Ban the rifle of any caliber and operation. Ban the shotgun as well. Might as well repeal the 2nd Amendment while we are at it. Why not ? We Constitutionally banned alcohol for a few yrs.

I think that's a good point NATO rounds / caliber should be banned so no AR-15's, etc and none of the weapons with long magazines should be in place. If I am going to shoot on a range or hunt, I can take my sweet time to reload my AR or whatever heavy bore / caliber rifle I am using and can fire as many shots as I want to, as its all considered "recreational" activities!! I know Ruger mini 14 well Gambit. I told you in my post, I used to think just like you, till yesterday!!

Think about it, Shot Gun...or a Pistol with a standard 10-12 bullet magazine. In a scenario like Orlando, the person will soon be out of ammo inside the gun and the loading process isn't instantaneous compared to if one was using an AR or Ruger with a longer magazine. Loading a shot gun takes a few second. So its enough time that people or police will over come you. The "collateral damage" (SADLY in this case innocents) will not be as high as this was.

Plus, the system needs more and better checks. I bought a gun in Florida last year, not too far from this place in discussion. They said there is a standard wait period in the State of Florida for 6 days that's a state law. The idea is, if some crazy person is high on crazy emotions and if he or she wants to go kill someone in anger, the 6 day period allows them to cool off. Now, let's say this fu**ing bast*ard went and bought two guns, I think there should've been a reporting process on AR-15 where the shop asked for an extended background check from the FBI. We all now know he had been interviewed by them. The purchase of two guns, should've been delayed by issuing a small one first (enough for self defense as that is the primary purpose of us having weapons to begin with). And the second gun would be released 2-3 weeks later, after the FBI again vetted him through the process and probably refused a gun to him once they found out that the guy was a nutt case and un-diagnosed bi-polar maniac like his ex-wife explains.

Sad to say, many countries follow this strict processes. I was researching last night to see how different we are from the rest of the world. And I came across many different laws across the globe where the process is MUCH stricter.

Second amendment doesn't need to be repealed or changed. The process has to be modified. In fact, remember, when that SAME second amendment was being designed.......they didn't have stuff like AR-15 and AK-47!!!!! If they did, and they say the legality of it, I am more than positive that they would put a "(weapons not included combat caliber automatic or semi-automatics articles)" next to the amendment!!

I have commented on this. There are clinically legitimate reasons for violence, whether that violence is small and local or large and wide scope. There is depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, and assorted mental health issues. If someone let his emotion get the better of him, we can chalk that off as character flaw, as in lack of self control. Then there is race, nationalism, and religion..

I agree with everything you said above. There are many medical reasons for all this. But to save our fellow citizens, we need stricter processes in place to vet out the crazies from getting these assault weapons. And, if "somehow" someone gets it, we need a reporting process and an investigation by the FBI, before the possession of the weapon is given to someone (specially in this case, when someone has been interviewed by the FBI) and his dad on his tv shows, was a sympathizer of Talibans!! Go figure!! People who worked with him, said that they sort of knew he'd be involved with violence one day!!

 

[-SINAN-]

he AR-15 and the handgun is identical in terms of operation -- semi-automatic. Why is that so difficult to understand ? That is why the man asked if you have ever shoot a semi-auto.

No, i shoot with G3 during my military service.

I still remember what our military officer said, when they first handed out the rifles to us;
"This a dangerous weapon. If you line up people and and shoot at the first one in the line. That guy would be shot, maybe bullet can pass through and 2nd guy in the can be shot. If you do the same thing with G3 bullet will down at least 7 people in the line. So, never point your gun to someone else even it's empty, never place the finger on the trigger and i will bash your skull if i see your rifles with no safety on"

Yet you still say, hand gun and rifle is the same thing....

Too bad your opinions are not more coherent.

Ban knives now...!!!

Yeah, with that logic, a person can kill other with his fists, will you ban fists ?

You have this issue. People randomly kills bunch of another people once in a while. I'm saying guns are the issue. And you have to deal with the situation. How you are going to deal with the situation is up to you. Are you going to ban only rifles, or all of the firearms....it's up to you.

You on the other hand say that guns are not the real issue it's the people. You say that instead of banning guns, we have to deal with the this people's motivations which drives them to mass-killing.

And i'm saying it's impossible to deal with the people's motivation, because they all have different motivations and their motivation makes no sense to ordinary people.

 

[Solomon2]

I suppose the true motivation for harping on gun control is that it's forbidden to discuss the theological motivations of the attacker. When this murderer called police to boast of his deeds and justify himself, he did not cite loose gun-control laws as his motivation, did he? If he didn't have guns readily available he would have used knives and bombs.

It's always important for civilians to maintain their weapons around would-be tyrants and terrorists. That's why we have the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Just think of how much better the Yezhidis in Iraq would have been had they not succumbed to the assurances of ISIS that they would be protected and surrendered their guns.

 

[Viper0011.]

Here is the reality...

Gambit - Homicide (individual murders or crimes), is A LOT different than mass shootings and murdering small children in school or mass killing innocents who were just trying to have a good time at pulse!!!! In homicides, you lose one person or two in some criminal activity. In these shootings, you lose dozens of innocents that didn't deserve bullets life to end like this!!

 

[-SINAN-]

I agree with everything you said above. There are many medical reasons for all this. But to save our fellow citizens, we need stricter processes in place to vet out the crazies from getting these assault weapons. And, if "somehow" someone gets it, we need a reporting process and an investigation by the FBI, before the possession of the weapon is given to someone (specially in this case, when someone has been interviewed by the FBI) and his dad on his tv shows, was a sympathizer of Talibans!! Go figure!! People who worked with him, said that they sort of knew he'd be involved with violence one day!!

Heve you seen that guy's home ?

This one below is very interesting...pics of cathedral and ruins of the roman civilization. And these jihadist nutjobs don't hang pictures in their homes, especially human pictures. His way of life looks so different from a radicalized man.

 

[livingdead]

Heve you seen that guy's home ?

This one below is very interesting...pics of cathedral and ruins of the roman civilization. And these jihadist nutjobs don't hang pictures in their homes, especially human pictures. His way of life looks so different from a radicalized man.

read a news item that he was regular in that gay club... may be scorned by his lover...

 

[-SINAN-]

read a news item that he was regular in that gay club... may be scorned by his lover...

I dunno but something is off.

 

[Sky lord]

Seems like he used gay dating apps. .....motivation not clear but

Could be that he had gay inclinations himself and may have been filled with self loathing....combined with a tendency to violence...does not mix well.

 

[livingdead]

I dunno but something is off.

it was too early to call it terrorism though.. they should do an investigation first...

 

[-SINAN-]

it was too early to call it terrorism though.. they should do an investigation first...

Terrorism is classified as fourth-generation warfare and as a violent crime. In its broadest sense, is defined as the use of violence, or threatened use of violence, in order to achieve a political, religious, or ideological aim.

If it's like you say...yeah it's not terrorism. But you know, he called 911 and pledged alliance to isis, so naturally first impression would be a terror act.

Seems like he used gay dating apps. .....motivation not clear but

Could be that he had gay inclinations himself and may have been filled with self loathing....combined with a tendency to violence...does not mix well.

Any source ?

 

[Sky lord]

Any source ?

NPR news...just heard it this morning.

Apparently one guy he contacted over a period of several months.

While his motivation is still unclear, it may be that he was confused about his own sexuality.

 

[gambit]

Think about it, Shot Gun...or a Pistol with a standard 10-12 bullet magazine. In a scenario like Orlando, the person will soon be out of ammo inside the gun and the loading process isn't instantaneous compared to if one was using an AR or Ruger with a longer magazine.

You are talking to someone who owns three firearms: Steyr M40 pistol, Noveske AR-15, and a DSA FAL 308.

All three are semi-autos. Reloading each take no significant time than the other.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/firerate.html

When the magazine in the gun is emptied, the user just presses a button and that magazine is ejected. With the other hand the user reaches into a pouch, retrieves a full magazine, inserts it in place of the empty one, and pushes a button on the gun to make the gun load the first cartridge into the firing chamber. All this can be done in two to three seconds.

There is no shortage of youtube vids on how fast can a pistol be reloaded and that does not mean someone who is yrs trained and a regular shooter.

Loading a shot gun takes a few second. So its enough time that people or police will over come you. The "collateral damage" (SADLY in this case innocents) will not be as high as this was.

This is absurd. You are talking Hollywood. In the Pulse nightclub, when the shooting start, there is going to be panic. Even for a calm individual, it will take more than a few seconds for him to get a bearing on where the shots came from, assuming the most optimistic scenario that the music will allow him to hear the shots' direction with such precision.

First, if he has any common sense, he is going to drop to the ground.

Second, he will WAIT while on the ground to get his position in relation to the shooter's.

Are you going to presume luck that he is going to be right next to the shooter ?

What I see in this discussion is the overwhelming desire to blame the American gun culture as to disregard common sense and enter the fantastic.

Second amendment doesn't need to be repealed or changed. The process has to be modified. In fact, remember, when that SAME second amendment was being designed.......they didn't have stuff like AR-15 and AK-47!!!!! If they did, and they say the legality of it, I am more than positive that they would put a "(weapons not included combat caliber automatic or semi-automatics articles)" next to the amendment!!

The 5.56 is .223 mm. That mean the larger pistol round of 9mm is 'combat caliber' ? How about my M40 which is .40 cal ? How about the .45 cal ? Why not ban anything larger than .22 short ?

This is ridiculous.

 

[Viper0011.]

I suppose the true motivation for harping on gun control is that it's forbidden to discuss the theological motivations of the attacker. When this murderer called police to boast of his deeds and justify himself, he did not cite loose gun-control laws as his motivation, did he? If he didn't have guns readily available he would have used knives and bombs.

It's always important for civilians to maintain their weapons around would-be tyrants and terrorists. That's why we have the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Just think of how much better the Yezhidis in Iraq would have been had they not succumbed to the assurances of ISIS that they would be protected and surrendered their guns.

My man, right to protect and have weapons as outlined by the second amendment is obviously not going to be touched, we all know that. I think the purpose is to find a stricter process for combat / war assault weapons to be restricted for insane maniacs. If you hear the Director of the FBI on this Orlando incident, this guy called 911, pledged allegiance to ISIS, at the same time praised other terrorists who were against ISIS and they had opposite religious and territorial claims directly in-confrontation with ISIS. So who was he really with? Was he inspired by all three? Well, then he was just a crazy maniac who was violent enough to just wanting to kill and Hitler would've been his next mentor on that as he was going around praising all different types of terrorists!!

Plus, outside of this one issue, what about the school shootings and previous other incidents? You think those guys were smart enough to go build these sophisticated stuff themselves? I doubt that. It was the quick access to assault weaponry that helped them in killing dozens of children and adults at various times in the past few years.

So in Orlando incident, was he radicalized yes, absolutely!! But only an investigation will tell in days to come as to why he was pledging allegiance and praising three different terrorist schools of thoughts as that's very abnormal by itself. People with these crazy affiliations, don't go to the "other party" as they are so focused and insanely in-depth with the sect / ideology/group they follow.

Another idea is, this was his own act of terror for whatever craziness he was going through as we now know he was mentally challenged and had un-diagnosed bi-polar, even schizophrenia (considering the violence), if they can do a brain autopsy (the size and scans of the brain can show you that). And knowing he'd die, he tried to "glorify" total craziness, stupidity and violence by praising these terrorists from different school of thought as he was really inspired by violence....not religion necessarily although that was the core in all the groups he followed. I am just laying out theories, when the FBI concludes the investigation, we'll all find out.

But irrespective of his brain malfunction and following an insane ideology of ISIS or whoever the f*ck he was following, what made his inhuman and barbaric intentions come true....was primarily the hi-caliber assault rifle.

A Pistol would've killed a few people too, but it would've been over come much quicker by the locals and police. Also, remember, a Pistol's bullet doesn't necessarily means someone dies right away (unless a trained SF guy is shooting, which this guy was not). So if he only had access to one or two Pistols, you'd have more injured then dead. AR-15's high velocity and hi-caliber bullet would tear a lot of stuff open and as a result, left so many dead. That's the main issue here. May be its time we stopped the assault carbines from being SO readily available!! And have a stricter process for people to go through before getting an assault, war machine that can be so deadly that it can kill dozens of children at school or 50 in a night club in a matter of little time?

And on the part of your post about Iraq and ISIS. To be frank, F**k Iraq and ISIS, we live in the United States of America, not effing Iraq. I am more concerned about the safety of our American brothers and sisters, our own families, your, Gambit's families, than these savages who somehow think killing others is f**king fun or part of their religion which its not. Its crazy to see billions poured into creating these religious monsters to support Wahabi Islam for KSA, and how its damaging the globe (when this Wahabi Islam doesn't match up with real Islamic teachings)!!

 

[IceCold]

Am not going to babysit you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_the_United_States

When you claim something, the burden of proof lies upon you to back it up. As for the source well it clearly states that

The following persons are eligible to possess and own firearms within the United States:[16]

• US citizens
• permanent resident aliens

Now the first two are interesting because apparently If he is US citizen he can get a weapon it does not matter if he is delusional, depressed, bipolar, schizophrenia or whatever name you want to give him. So much for the law. Moreover it says that

• Federal Firearms Act of 1938 ("FFA"): Requires that gun manufacturers, importers, and persons in the business of selling firearms have a Federal Firearms License (FFL). Prohibits the transfer of firearms to certain classes of persons, such as convicted felons.

Now the question arises what about people who were or are under FBI watch list like this guy who was questioned both in 2013 and 2014?

Another important bit

• Federal Assault Weapons Ban (1994–2004): Banned semiautomatic assault weapons and large capacity ammunition feeding devices. The law expired in 2004.

No wonder why americans find it easy to get an assault weapon again a case in point the attack in Orlando.

That is terribly poor critical thinking skill. Sorry to say it. Just because no gangs were reported in Sandy Hook school shooting, that mean on gangs and guns exists ?

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/fullpage/chicago-gang-violence-numbers-17509042

And people on this forum says Americans are stupid.

Say what ever you want but it remains a fact that Gangs or no gangs Individual are involved which have no relation or affiliation with any Gang. You made it look as if gun violence is something done by gangs alone which is not the case as evident from these repeated mass shootings.

You are seriously confused between 'excuse' and 'cause'.

Am I or are you the one who is being delusional here. what is it going to take for you to call a spade a spade? Seriously your expertise are in radars it would better if you stick to that.

Here is the reality...

The old argument of 'guns do not kill people, people kill people' holds true. But when it comes to the US, logic and reasoning are flushed down the toilet.

Let me tell you what it the reality, the reality is that 50 men lost their lives while more than 50 are critically injured all AMERICANS. You should be worried about them rather comparing apples with oranges here. People kill people but it becomes all the more easy when you have means to do that and your constitution protects it.

 

[gambit]

No, i shoot with G3 during my military service.

The G3 is an automatic. Like I said earlier, the requirements to own a fully automatic weapon is so onerous that most American gun owners do not bother with it.

Yet you still say, hand gun and rifle is the same thing....

That is a lie. I never said such thing. What you did is dishonest and is fully expected. What I said was the operation of semi-auto between the pistol and the AR-15 is the same. That is not saying a pistol and a rifle are the same thing. But I fully expect such dishonest debating tactic with people like you. I had yrs of that on this forum.

Yeah, with that logic, a person can kill other with his fists, will you ban fists ?

Am asking if you agree with the UK doctors who now want to ban certain kitchen knives base on design. Do you agree ?

I'm saying guns are the issue.

And you are wrong. Simple as that.