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Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando - 50 dead and 53 injured

Unbelievable....what i said, what i am trying to explain is gone to dust bin...i have talked all this pages for nothing....
Maybe because your arguments are nothing.

I'm sick of your wall of texts....
Likewise to yours.

what are you trying to prove...Do you have any way to prevent this attack or no ? Even a tiny contribution can you do it or not ?
You ask not because you want to learn anything new but to put me into an impossible position. And I have no problems saying I am in an impossible position.

There is absolutely NO WAY for me or for anyone to prevent mass murders. If it is not with a gun, it can and will be with an IED, which the Boston Marathon bombers used.

But I have no problem returning the favor to put you into an equally impossible position regarding your religion. What can you do to contribute to reduce Islam inspired terrorism ? Nothing ? Then why do you want to put me into guilt but not yourself ? For you and your religion, you demand personal responsibility. But for Americans and our guns, you demand collective responsibility and guilt.

I told, you several times....they are not normal people each had their motives....Yet, you keep focusing on my religion....I have nothing more to say.
You had nothing worthwhile to say to start. What I posted were not for you because I fingered you out from the beginning.

A pistol and an assault rifle is not equally deadly....you are trying so hard to say otherwise, but it's not dude.
The AR-15 is NOT an assault weapon. Never was. But since you seems to be easily impressed by appearance, I guess if it looks like an assault rifle -- it is. :rolleyes:

I am sure you meant "Ayah" (complete sentence), "Surah" (Chapter) or "Para" (book). Quaran is The "Word of GOD" and does not contain any "Hadith" which is "Saying or Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)............we get your point but comparing "man made" constitution with the "Word of GOD" is not a perfect example, constitution can be amended/revoked
I am not interested in getting into a theological debate about Islam and its texts. You know exactly what I meant.
 
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You simply do not like the fact that your religion in as much influential to Omar Mateen as the US Constitution is influential to American thoughts. You have no problems attacking our root cause -- the US Constitution, but insists that Islam cannot be the root cause, or at least a major psychological influence, in this tragedy.

There have been cases of shooting in the US where the killer was not a Muslim, so what do you think was the root cause than, as it cannot be Islam for them?
 
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Gambit, I thought exactly how you do till yesterday. But then I saw the pain, drama and suffering of ordinary people with my eyes. And after 911, this was the second time I saw this sort of in person. If you can understand the feeling, it was a punch n the gut to say the least to see so many suffering Americans in ONE place as little as two Coffee shops and a tiny parking combined.

That's when I realized, can we, the Americans, through our second amendment in tact, STILL carry weapons as the second ammendment allows for it.......JUST not the combat / most lethal ones (an example the lovely and famous AR-15)? Remember, AR-15 was a preferred weapon that killed so many in these attacks, attacks that happened the last time and the attacks on Sandy Hook school.....I now believe we can still carry weapons as we please, it just can't be the most lethal combat rifles that easily serve as preferred killing machines in these sad incidents. May be stricter laws should be in place for someone to go through a mental stability examination who MUST have an AR-15? Just putting ideas out there. We have to do something about the free flow and availability of these lethal weapons to be honest. I've changed a lot on this topic just since yesterday!!
Then we should ban base on caliber, not appearance.

The Mossberg MVP Patrol, the Ruger Mini 14, and the AR-15 have the same caliber of 5.56. The Mossberg is bolt action and will require more effort to operate. The Ruger Mini 14 is semi-auto and essentially is the same as the AR-15 without all the 'scary' appliances. You can look them up. The Ruger is less expensive and has the same rate of fire as the AR-15: as quick as your index finger can pull the trigger.

Ban the rifle of any caliber and operation. Ban the shotgun as well. Might as well repeal the 2nd Amendment while we are at it. Why not ? We Constitutionally banned alcohol for a few yrs.

There have been cases of shooting in the US where the killer was not a Muslim, so what do you think was the root cause than, as it cannot be Islam for them?
I have commented on this. There are clinically legitimate reasons for violence, whether that violence is small and local or large and wide scope. There is depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, and assorted mental health issues. If someone let his emotion get the better of him, we can chalk that off as character flaw, as in lack of self control. Then there is race, nationalism, and religion.

One or combination of these things must be the root cause or causes. We have to find out via time consuming post mortem analysis. But if it make Muslims more comfortable to call non-Islam related violence as 'Christian' terrorism, do so, and let everyone see how far that will go. Why not call cartoons of Muhammad as emotional terrorism ? Many Muslims already done exactly that.
 
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aybe because your arguments are nothing.
No, English is not my mother language and i'm not fluent. So, during the conversation, i expect you to understand things without me explaining it in very detail. However you use that for bending my words, loading different meanings to my words.

There is absolutely NO WAY for me or for anyone to prevent mass murders. If it is not with a gun, it can and will be with an IED, which the Boston Marathon bombers used.
Again the IED thing....again the they will find different methods thing....

No, if they don't have assault guns and free access to guns, this won't be the case...They gave you a very good example from Australia...

No...you have to keep your AR-15 and keep firing .....that's more important for you than the lives of your country man.....

But I have no problem returning the favor to put you into an equally impossible position regarding your religion. What can you do to contribute to reduce Islam inspired terrorism ? Nothing ? Then why do you want to put me into guilt but not yourself ? For you and your religion, you demand personal responsibility. But for Americans and our guns, you demand collective responsibility and guilt.

Look i will make this thing very simple....

1-) Me trying to prevent Jihadists from cultvating....I will leave my work and pregnant wife, stop providing for them. And illegally cross to Syria, go to Rakka, and preach against the Terrorists which will be my certain death.

2-) You vote for whoever takes a stance for anti gun laws. Nothing more.

^^^ It's that simple. Now, among this 2 examples one is doable...other one is not.

You had nothing worthwhile to say to start. What I posted were not for you because I fingered you out from the beginning.
I think likewise for you.

The AR-15 is NOT an assault weapon. Never was. But since you seems to be easily impressed by appearance, I guess if it looks like an assault rifle -- it is. :rolleyes:

You may categorize it as a can opener if you like....what does it changes ? It's deadly as an AK-47....what do you say in terminology machine gun, DMR, semi-automatic ? He was able to kill 50 people with that rifle.

I have commented on this. There are clinically legitimate reasons for violence, whether that violence is small and local or large and wide scope. There is depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, and assorted mental health issues. If someone let his emotion get the better of him, we can chalk that off as character flaw, as in lack of self control. Then there is race, nationalism, and religion.

One or combination of these things must be the root cause or causes. We have to find out via time consuming post mortem analysis. But if it make Muslims more comfortable to call non-Islam related violence as 'Christian' terrorism, do so, and let everyone see how far that will go. Why not call cartoons of Muhammad as emotional terrorism ? Many Muslims already done exactly that.

Stick on this idea, i see.....There are clinically legitimate reasons for violence, One or combination of these things must be the root cause or causes. We have to find out via time consuming post mortem analysis.

Identifying the cause means nothing, if you can't remove the cause for the future attacks. And i gave you several incidents, with several causes...you won't be able to remove the causes....why don't you want to understand.....


Guy says, he killed because he was jealous of the other people who was having sex. How are you going to remove that cause and prevent future attacks, So, state will have to provide sex services for all the people who can't get laid ?

Might as well repeal the 2nd Amendment while we are at it. Why not ?
Yeah, maybe you should revise the 220 year old constitution which have been written during "Wild West" times.....
 
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War veteran saves dozens during Orlando nightclub shooting

vet.jpg


Imran Yousuf, a bouncer at the Pulse nightclub, never saw the gunman in the early Sunday morning hours. Right after last call, he was making his rounds, and barely missed coming face-to-face with Mateen.

Yousuf, a 24-year-old Hindu, served as a U.S. Marine in Afghanistan. On Saturday night, thecombat zone followed him to Orlando.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/war-vet...uring-orlando-nightclub-shooting-omar-mateen/



Not sure what the deal is, but the news report says Imran Yousef, a Hindu. I am guessing he is probably an Indian Muslim.
 
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In the Boston Marathon bombing, the home made IEDs came from rice cookers and they were powerful enough to either severed limbs or do enough damage to warrant amputations later in the hospitals.


This is in YOUR country, pal...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Ankara_bombings

Are you that desperate to regard US in so negative a light that you are willing to be that intellectually dishonest ? I guess so.


Sure it does. It contribute to preventative measures.


Guilt from what ?

The laws says this and that technicalities on what make an 'assault' weapon or not. The majority of gun owners complied. So if someone is going to mischaracterize what they own, of course we are going to speak up on those technicalities.


Considering how many more Muslims are killed by Muslims using a variety of weapons, you are SOL in your criticism of US, pal.


The difference then is that no religion were invoked.

You cannot dismiss powerful influences like race, nationalism, and/or religion.


Here we go, Theory materializing that he was a closeted gay. Drank alcohol, were on differe gay dating apps. A classic case of self hating and conflicting nature manifesting into extreme hatred and tendency to do violence

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/4nz2f8/report_orlando_shooter_was_a_regular_at_the_gay/
 
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I have commented on this. There are clinically legitimate reasons for violence, whether that violence is small and local or large and wide scope. There is depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, and assorted mental health issues. If someone let his emotion get the better of him, we can chalk that off as character flaw, as in lack of self control. Then there is race, nationalism, and religion.

So dont you think that such disorders take centre stage when there is no Gun control in the US. It gets all the more easy for any depressed, bipolar schizophrenia to get a gun and take it out on others. Whether religion plays a role in this or not becomes moot because at the end whatever may be the reason, its very easy to get a gun in the US because of the US constitution and than the results are there in front of us all.
On the other hand if there is a strict Gun law, you are taking the means out of any depressed, bipolar, schizophrenia individual to simply go on a killing sphere.

By the way whey does US not introduce a law where those individual that have a history of mental disorder or have been on FBI watchlist to be banned at all from getting weapons?
 
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So dont you think that such disorders take centre stage when there is no Gun control in the US.
Wrong. There are gun control laws in the US. Plenty of them.

It gets all the more easy for any depressed, bipolar schizophrenia to get a gun and take it out on others.
But the statistics do not bear this out.

For starter, gun related violence are overwhelmingly gang related. Then there is suicide by guns, so we can rule this out of the debate. I knew that when I brought up mental health issues, you or someone is going to gleefully seize on this and will try to portray the US as rife with mentally ill people running amok armed with 'assault' rifles.

Whether religion plays a role in this or not becomes moot because at the end whatever may be the reason, its very easy to get a gun in the US because of the US constitution and than the results are there in front of us all.
It is not moot. Religion is a powerful intellectual and emotional force. People left their families and died for religions. You do not know that ?
 
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If you support %100 gun control, which mean no availability at all, you have taken one side of this debate. I have no problems with that. Just be honest about it.
I believe in zero guns in society. I thought I was being honest by making my position clear and that I was not going to weigh into the "gun debate" within USA because from previous discussions with American's in other forums I know how the subject is very tricky. Thus my position. Your country. Your rules.

Actually...Not true.
At one level everything, I mean everything is open to subjective interpretation. That I agree with you. However let's be realistic here. One amendment within the US legal architecture whose interpretation is solely limited to one arm of the US government - the judiciary in the shape of Supreme Court is going to have "tighter" definition than a religion which has been around for 1,400 years, is found across 40 countries, has no central authority to give legal binding definitions. Every mullah makes his own interpretation and by the time your done the only common denomintor is, well belief in Allah.
 
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Though that would have been 90 fewer casualties.

With the greatest respect Sir for the quality of your contributions here and with respect to your interpretation of the second amendment. The US goverment regulates, who can drive who can drink and who can take pharmecuticals with out breaching peoples constitutional rights.

I live in Tasmania, not far from here 20 years ago martin bryant used an AR-15 to kill 35 and wound a further 24 people.

Laws were passed, rules were changed and maybe we were just lucky but we havent had anything as bad in 20 years.
We can still hunt we can still own a gun but we chose to make buying a gun harder than picking up a six pack on the way home from work.

All things require balance, perhaps the balance in favor of the second amendment has gone too far perhaps there were things Jefferson thought were more important?

"We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life"

Couldn't have said it better.. There are two parties here in total denial, One most Muslims that think that some Jihadi killing in the name of Islam has nothing to do with their faith, And the other supporters of NRA who think that these killings have nothing to do with the incomprehensible lack of gun control in the US

Both use archaic/ Outdated laws/decree's to try and legitimize these crimes against humanity.. One religious other civil
 
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A pistol and an assault rifle is not equally deadly....you are trying so hard to say otherwise, but it's not dude.
A semi-auto "assault rifle" (according to you, but that's not what it's categorized as) is similar to a pistol because both aren't full auto or single burst but can only fire single shots at a time.

The weapon the terrorist had was a AR-15, the semi-auto version of the M4. @gambit already explained this point thoroughly to you yet you keep bringing up the same thing.

Couldn't have said it better.. There are two parties here in total denial, One most Muslims that think that some Jihadi killing in the name of Islam has nothing to do with their faith, And the other supporters of NRA who think that these killings have nothing to do with the incomprehensible lack of gun control in the US

Both use archaic/ Outdated laws/decree's to try and legitimize these crimes against humanity.. One religious other civil
There are more than 80 million Americans who are registered firearms owners. Unless you can prove that even 10% of that number approves of the gun crimes like the one at the gay bar or shares the beliefs of the terrorist your comparison of the 2nd amendment to Islam/Muslims doesn't hold. On the other hand there are polls from every major Muslim population all across the globe, including Western countries, where a majority of the Muslim population, sometimes upwards of 90%, unanimously believe Shariah law should be implemented and this includes some form of punishment for homosexuals, including death. This is a fact, though an inconvenient one for some, but a fact nonetheless.

Therefore, if we were to implement the logic of those on this thread who base their argument on such a logic it would be Islam & Muslims who would be banned/controlled in America (& other western countries) since there is evidence to implicate them for the extremist views they hold in a large majority.

Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll find - The Guardian

The latest WikiLeaks revelation: 1 in 3 British Muslim students back killing for Islam and 40% want Sharia law - The Daily Mail


 
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Wrong. There are gun control laws in the US. Plenty of them
Care to elaborate on these laws?

But the statistics do not bear this out
Majority of all these incidents recently have been individuals whether they were at school or elsewhere. No where was any gang involved.


It is not moot. Religion is a powerful intellectual and emotional force. People left their families and died for religions. You do not know that ?
Yes it is but you don't want to admit it because its easy to blame everything on religion specially when its Islam. The reason I pointed this out in my original post when I said that similar incidents were also done by non Muslims what's the excuse for them? I was right they were given all the medical terms that one could find out yet when the same incident happened by a so called Muslim there was only one name given terrorist and blame the whole religion and community for it. Yes People have died for religion but not just Muslims but Christian and Jews too. That does not mean behind a so called Muslim it's always Islam while for others religion No, they are just sick.
 
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No, I know. But even with all the training those are still semi-auto rifles the gun stores sell. To be able to kill over 50 people single handadly is just insane.
Ever fired a semi-auto??
Arguably a semi-auto beats an auto during a shooting spree because you can conserve ammo better given that you can carry little of it
 
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A semi-auto "assault rifle" (according to you, but that's not what it's categorized as) is similar to a pistol because both aren't full auto or single burst but can only fire single shots at a time.

The weapon the terrorist had was a AR-15, the semi-auto version of the M4. @gambit already explained this point thoroughly to you yet you keep bringing up the same thing.
Yeah, i keep saying the same thing, because it's not the equivalent of a hand gun.

Also, this non-sense. I'm not saying ban AR-15 but permit handguns...arrange your laws.

I know this is a very debatable subject....that's why discussions in the US going for years. There is simply no-easy solution and i don't care, they can mount miniguns in their homes if they want. I don't care.

I just wanted to give my opinion.

I don't think this incident is related with ISIS....once in a while in US, some crazy mofo sprays his machine gun over innocent souls...

As i see, this is the price you have to pay, for giving any kinds of weapons to US citizens without any constraint. Out of millions of people there will be some mofos like this and the previous ones.

This is not the first and will be the last incident with the gun laws you have.
 
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I believe in zero guns in society. I thought I was being honest by making my position clear and that I was not going to weigh into the "gun debate" within USA because from previous discussions with American's in other forums I know how the subject is very tricky. Thus my position. Your country. Your rules.
If you believe in a 'zero guns society', then by default your position is anti-gun. I have no problems with that. What I expect is that since the 2nd Amendment is a 'tricky' issue by your own experience, anyone, American or not, who wishes to inject his opinions into a discussion about US society and our gun laws, be open about his attitude about guns. You cannot be for zero guns and yet cannot take a side. That is an intellectual illogic.

Being 'for' guns does not mean you advocate that everyone must be armed. Being 'for' guns simply means you want guns to be available as a choice. So if you are a for a 'zero guns society', it is about having no guns at all and that the government is empowered to make that non-availability a reality.

http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS Reports/GSS_Trends in Gun Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf

Table 1 shows that gun ownership in American have been steadily declining for the past 40 yrs. However, American attitudes about the 2nd Amendment, including non owners, have not decrease to match in terms of veneration, if you will, of that Constitutional right, which also means that Americans as a whole do not want anyone to alter the 2nd Amendment as is.

When it comes to self defense, there is no middle ground. Either you are for it or against it. With self defense inevitably involves weapons. Only in cheap Hong Kong kung-fu movies does the hero does not want guns. If you are anti-gun, that does not mean you are against the right to self defense, it means you have no problems with a person, including yourself, of being physically inferior to an assailant who want to do terrible things to you.

At one level everything, I mean everything is open to subjective interpretation. That I agree with you. However let's be realistic here. One amendment within the US legal architecture whose interpretation is solely limited to one arm of the US government - the judiciary in the shape of Supreme Court is going to have "tighter" definition than a religion which has been around for 1,400 years, is found across 40 countries, has no central authority to give legal binding definitions. Every mullah makes his own interpretation and by the time your done the only common denomintor is, well belief in Allah.
Yes, there are only nine US Supreme Court Justices and their jurisdiction is confined to the US and her citizens. Yes, there are over 1 bils Muslims in most countries in the world. But the issue is not about the scope of Islam or of the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution. The issue is about the variations of interpretations that are produced by the people of whom a certain principle holds reign.

If idea A is entertained by only two individuals and each have a different interpretation of A, idea B is irrelevant to them even if B is entertained by one million individuals. Idea A does not hold jurisdiction over the believers of idea B, and vice versa. So if there are one million interpretations of idea B, the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution is quite analogous to your Islam.

Care to elaborate on these laws?
Am not going to babysit you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_the_United_States

That is just federal laws. Not counting states.

Majority of all these incidents recently have been individuals whether they were at school or elsewhere. No where was any gang involved.
That is terribly poor critical thinking skill. Sorry to say it. Just because no gangs were reported in Sandy Hook school shooting, that mean on gangs and guns do not exists ?

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/fullpage/chicago-gang-violence-numbers-17509042

And people on this forum says Americans are stupid.

Yes it is but you don't want to admit it because its easy to blame everything on religion specially when its Islam. The reason I pointed this out in my original post when I said that similar incidents were also done by non Muslims what's the excuse for them? I was right they were given all the medical terms that one could find out yet when the same incident happened by a so called Muslim there was only one name given terrorist and blame the whole religion and community for it. Yes People have died for religion but not just Muslims but Christian and Jews too. That does not mean behind a so called Muslim it's always Islam while for others religion No, they are just sick.
You are seriously confused between 'excuse' and 'cause'. They are not the same. Do some reading on their differences. From this gross error alone, I cannot adequately debate your post.

Here is the reality...

guns_crimes_international_zpsvbopktim.jpg


The old argument of 'guns do not kill people, people kill people' holds true. But when it comes to the US, logic and reasoning are flushed down the toilet.

Yeah, i keep saying the same thing, because it's not the equivalent of a hand gun.
The AR-15 and the handgun is identical in terms of operation -- semi-automatic. Why is that so difficult to understand ? That is why the man asked if you have ever shoot a semi-auto.

Also, this non-sense. I'm not saying ban AR-15 but permit handguns...arrange your laws.
Then what are you saying ? Arrange our laws ? That is the real nonsense. It is grossly vague. Arrange to do what and to what ? If you do not advocate banning the AR-15, then why do you focus on it, especially when its operation is the same as a semi-auto pistol ?

I know this is a very debatable subject....that's why discussions in the US going for years. There is simply no-easy solution and i don't care, they can mount miniguns in their homes if they want. I don't care.

I just wanted to give my opinion.
Too bad your opinions are not more coherent.

Ban knives now...!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm
A team from West Middlesex University Hospital said violent crime is on the increase - and kitchen knives are used in as many as half of all stabbings.

They argued many assaults are committed impulsively, prompted by alcohol and drugs, and a kitchen knife often makes an all too available weapon.

The research is published in the British Medical Journal.

The researchers said there was no reason for long pointed knives to be publicly available at all.

http://www.snopes.com/2015/06/22/save-a-life-surrender-your-knife/
TRUE

The new “Save a Life — Surrender Your Knife” program is in full swing and police are telling us that they have joined forces with an already growing trend in the United Kingdom to ban “pointy” knives.

Lancashire Police tell us that an “amnesty” program began at the end of August, and “more than 800 knives have been handed in across the county — including swords, machetes and commando knives.”

“The amnesty was extended for a further week owing to its success,” Lancashire Police representatives explained.

The Lancashire department explains that their “officers have now given their backing to a national initiative designed to raise awareness of knife crime and encourage the surrender of dangerous weapons.”
 
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