First Sikh Army Officer

[RajputWarrior]

Thousands serve, many hundreds join each year, since the takfir insurgency is a threat to all Pakistanis.

That didn't answer my question.. I'm sure its just hearsay as usual, just to claim that there is some diversity. However I've yet to see statistics or evidence of Sikh, Buddhist, Jain and Parsi soldiers/officers as you've claimed.

 

[Rafi]

That didn't answer my question.. I'm sure its just hearsay as usual, just to claim that there is some diversity. However I've yet to see statistics or evidence of Sikh, Buddhist, Jain and Parsi soldiers/officers as you've claimed.

You can believe what you want, but there is no way minority soldiers individual details will be be put on an open forum. Suffice to say the current strength of soldiers is more than their % per population.

Just because he was mentioned in the media, Air Commodore Perci Edul Virjee excellent and talented Parsi Officer - is the person heading the AWAC programme of the PAF.

Wing Commander Ronald Afzal - One of the most important persons in the JF17 Project.

 

[M.AsfandYar]

Is this true that he's the first Sikh officer? I thought the Pak military had a lot of different religions? I'd love to see this guys rising up to a general level and commanding his country's army one day....

By constitution no non muslim can command PA, but they can rise to general level.

 

[Rafi]

By constitution no non muslim can command PA, but they can rise to general level.

Incorrect - there is no constitutional bar - for a non-Muslim to become COAS, CAS, CNS or JCSC.

 

[future_bound]

The first Sikh officer in Pak Army (infantry), Capt Harcharan Singh, is now an ADC to a Corps Commander

Excellent News.....

https://twitter.com/x/status/472374257675026432

A patriotic pakistani song by a pakistani sikh

 

[Viper0011.]

That didn't answer my question.. I'm sure its just hearsay as usual, just to claim that there is some diversity. However I've yet to see statistics or evidence of Sikh, Buddhist, Jain and Parsi soldiers/officers as you've claimed.

Actually, plenty of officers have come from Christian and other backgrounds into the PAF. They visit the US / NATO and UK's training and educational facilities for training courses. Wing Commander Ronald was one recent example, also, there are other folks too.
The US had helped Pakistan military create many initiatives for training, team building, etc, etc and you see diversity in all of them. In fact, the most under-rated minority IMO was the female population in the Pak military. Today, the PAF has actual combat pilots that are females, you see them from all background in all different areas, from AD to Army to liaison work to actual combat. That's actually impressive compared to even many Western countries. I can't think of females in many European air forces flying combat missions......
Frankly speaking, in Pakistan from what I know and have heard of, minorities don't get treated as bad as they do in India. I've heard this from Christians and Hindus that have come from there.

By constitution no non muslim can command PA, but they can rise to general level.

You are just making your country look bad in front of many readers. There is no such thing like that. I think the only limitations would be to become a Prime Minister or the President but I am not sure.
I think your supreme court already has or had representation from many religions. Try not to make these statements that are either entirely inaccurate or just give out a really bad and negative perception of your country. Perception is reality and that's actually true when people don't go to your country that much....

 

[blain2]

That didn't answer my question.. I'm sure its just hearsay as usual, just to claim that there is some diversity. However I've yet to see statistics or evidence of Sikh, Buddhist, Jain and Parsi soldiers/officers as you've claimed.

Pakistan's minorities comprise 3% of Pakistan's population. By virtue of lack of interest in the profession of the arms, most minorities do not take it up. However given the demographics of the population, Pakistan has had its share of non-Muslims throughout the decades. There is nothing to prove here for Pakistan. If the minorities opt for the Armed Forces, the doors are open, have always been and will always remain that way.

Of the minorities, Christians are the most widely represented in all three arms. Hindus and Sikhs do not join in numbers because of the ideological issues and Pakistan's relations with India. Parsis like the Christians have had a presence in the Armed forces but based on what I have seen, most Parsis who have served have opted for the Army.

Sprinkling of Hindu officers also exist. My own assertion is that most opt for Navy since the proximity of the service's bases around Karachi where the majority of the Hindu population in Pakistan resides but of those who serve, most are in the non-commissioned ranks.

Sikh and Hindu officers usher in a new era in Pakistani Army | SikhNet

Obviously the minorities are being encouraged to join in greater numbers and this is a good thing for our national cohesion. Service in the armed forces allows upward mobility to the minorities that are not well off, an exception to the case being the Parsis and Sikhs in Pakistan as they are relatively well off compared to the other minorities, so hopefully this trend will continue to increase.

Article 39 of the Pakistani constitution allows for all citizens, regardless of religion, to be able to join the armed forces. At least in the constitution of Pakistan, there is no bar on a Non-Muslim officer becoming the Chief of Staff of any of the services.

 

[OrionHunter]

Isn't ADC the rank of a Major usually?

ADC is a Captain for a Corps Commander.

As a cadet....

 

[Thirdfront]

Pakistan's minorities comprise 3% of Pakistan's population. By virtue of lack of interest in the profession of the arms, most minorities do not take it up. However given the demographics of the population, Pakistan has had its share of non-Muslims throughout the decades. There is nothing to prove here for Pakistan. If the minorities opt for the Armed Forces, the doors are open, have always been and will always remain that way.

Of the minorities, Christians are the most widely represented in all three arms. Hindus and Sikhs do not join in numbers because of the ideological issues and Pakistan's relations with India. Parsis like the Christians have had a presence in the Armed forces but based on what I have seen, most Parsis who have served have opted for the Army.

Sprinkling of Hindu officers also exist. My own assertion is that most opt for Navy since the proximity of the service's bases around Karachi where the majority of the Hindu population in Pakistan resides but of those who serve, most are in the non-commissioned ranks.

Sikh and Hindu officers usher in a new era in Pakistani Army | SikhNet

Obviously the minorities are being encouraged to join in greater numbers and this is a good thing for our national cohesion. Service in the armed forces allows upward mobility to the minorities that are not well off, an exception to the case being the Parsis and Sikhs in Pakistan as they are relatively well off compared to the other minorities, so hopefully this trend will continue to increase.

Please don't mislead the forum. What is PA's motto?? That is right "Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi Sabilillah (A follower of none but Allah, The fear of Allah, Jihad for Allah.)". How can minority feel they are welcome in PA? In the same note, how come PAis recruiting against it'sown motto???

 

[blain2]

Please don't mislead the forum. What is PA's motto?? That is right "Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi Sabilillah (A follower of none but Allah, The fear of Allah, Jihad for Allah.)". How can minority feel they are welcome in PA? In the same note, how come PAis recruiting against it'sown motto???

If you believe people join something solely on the basis of motto then you have a thing or two coming your way. The motto is an Islamic one because Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. However Pakistani Armed forces cannot bar any minority because article 39 of the constitution obviously outweighs any motto and neither are they a proselytizing entity. The workings inside of the armed forces are a professional affair. Discussions around religion, like the fairer sex and politics in formal settings, are still frowned upon because within the Army, the outlook is very nationalistic and this has not changed.

One needs to be able to see this up close to understand. Our Christian and minority officers join in the Islamic rituals just the same as those of us who have been to convent schools and participated in non-Muslim/Christian customs. Within the service, there is no discrimination against the minorities. Its one thing to read about issues pertaining to Pakistan in the newspapers, and an entirely other experiencing it first hand. The reality is that things can always be better for our minorities and there is no denying that. However the inclusion of minorities in greater numbers in the armed forces is showing an upward trajectory.

 

[Thirdfront]

If you believe people join something solely on the basis of motto then you have a thing or two coming your way. The motto is an Islamic one because Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. However Pakistani Armed forces cannot bar any minority because article 39 of the constitution obviously outweighs any motto and neither are they a proselytizing entity. The workings inside of the armed forces are a professional affair. Discussions around religion, like the fairer sex and politics in formal settings, are still frowned upon because within the Army, the outlook is very nationalistic and this has not changed.

One needs to be able to see this up close to understand. Our Christian and minority officers join in the Islamic rituals just the same as those of us who have been to convent schools and participated in non-Muslim/Christian customs. Within the service, there is no discrimination against the minorities. Its one thing to read about issues pertaining to Pakistan in the newspapers, and an entirely other experiencing it first hand.

Do you even understand what a motto means? If you come across a company with a motto "we hate Pakistan", what would be your opinion about it? Will still do business with that company saying it is just a motto?? I am not saying PA bars minorities, but it's motto certainly hints that non-muslims (including muslims considered non-muslims) are not welcome. If you want to include minorities, motto can be changed to remove any religious reference. To have such an organization which is heavily biased against minorities and then label the minorities "not interested" is dishonest on your part.....

 

[Areesh]

Do you even understand what a motto means? If you come across a company with a motto "we hate Pakistan", what would be your opinion about it? Will still do business with that company saying it is just a motto?? I am not saying PA bars minorities, but it's motto certainly hints that non-muslims (including muslims considered non-muslims) are not welcome. If you want to include minorities, motto can be changed to remove any religious reference. To have such an organization which is heavily biased against minorities and then label the minorities "not interested" is dishonest on your part.....

Well this religious references are more common in Indian army than Pakistan army. We all know about the different war cries of Indian soldiers of different regiments who all have religious references which might be very uncomfortable for Muslim soldiers like Jat regiment soldier screaming Jat Balwan, Jai Bhagwan. So better change all kind of religious references in your army before suggesting us to do so.

 

[Thirdfront]

Well this religious references are more common in Indian army than Pakistan army. We all know about the different war cries of Indian soldiers of different regiments who all have religious references which might be very uncomfortable for Muslim soldiers like Jat regiment soldier screaming Jat Balwan, Jai Bhagwan. So better change all kind of religious references in your army before suggesting us to do so.

There are so many islamic/non-religious battle cries. So equating them to army's motto is meaningless. When the organization's motto itself is against minorities, well that is a different ball game all together...

 

[Areesh]

There are so many islamic/non-religious battle cries. So equating them to army's motto is meaningless. When the organization's motto itself is against minorities, well that is a different ball game all together...

War cry is just a minor example of how religious references are part of Indian army. You need to change a lot in your army before asking Pakistan to change its motto.

 

[blain2]

Do you even understand what a motto means? If you come across a company with a motto "we hate Pakistan", what would be your opinion about it? Will still do business with that company saying it is just a motto?? I am not saying PA bars minorities, but it's motto certainly hints that non-muslims (including muslims considered non-muslims) are not welcome. If you want to include minorities, motto can be changed to remove any religious reference. To have such an organization which is heavily biased against minorities and then label the minorities "not interested" is dishonest on your part.....

It seems only you understand the meaning of motto and all those non-Muslims serving in Pakistani security forces need to be re-oriented by you to understand how horrible the armed forces have been to them.

You keep on harping on the same old in both your posts. Pakistan is an Islamic republic as I have said. The motto is representative of that. Contrary to your ill informed claim "an organization which is heavily biased against minorities", well what is your proof that it is heavily biased? Do you know first hand that people are rejected because they are non-Muslim? Don't tell me about bias, I have seen the recruitment process up close. Extra weight is given to those representing minorities, motto not withstanding and most applying could care less about the motto which represents the religious values of the majority. Pakistan, in all reality, is not a secular country so what you are trying to get across here about the motto means very little. It used to be "Men who serve, men who command." and now this Iman, Taqwa one. Perhaps it may change again. However what has not changed is the Army's recruitment policies of leaving the door wide open for minorities.

The constitution of the country clearly states that Pakistan's state religion is Islam. Does that mean everyone has to become a Muslim? No. The very same constitution also allows non-Muslims to be part of the government and allows them to join the armed forces. Perhaps the motto discourages the minorities, but it is also a reflection of the aspirations of the majority.

There are so many islamic/non-religious battle cries. So equating them to army's motto is meaningless. When the organization's motto itself is against minorities, well that is a different ball game all together...

You are patently wrong. The motto is not against anyone. Its a reflection of the majority sentiment. You need to understand that Pakistan is not a secular country. Once you get that, then you can perhaps move beyond this point. The reality is that at least in the service, this is a non-issue. One can debate all day and night the issues around Islamic state vs. secularism etc., but I'd rather deal with the ground realities.

War cry is just a minor example of how religious references are part of Indian army. You need to change a lot in your army before asking Pakistan to change its motto.

Indian Muslims are 14% or so of the population. Their numbers in the Indian Armed forces are nowhere close to representing that. I can guarantee the same for all other minorities there, inclusive motto or not.