First Scorpene Submarine by 2015

[IND151]

You got something for Bolded part ??? As far as I know that thing never materialise.

I read somewhere that only 3 Arihant class will make to service. First one will always remain as Tech demonstrator and for testing. Correct me if I am wrong.

How it will be feasible to install AIP in subs ??? We don't have AIP. I don't trust DRDO till they came with one. Not before that. (And Unfortunatly I am reading this from 4/5 years)

Still this didn't explain how the disel-elc sub will be 20 in numbers ???

i think its true

 

[Gessler]

You got something for Bolded part ??? As far as I know that thing never materialise.

I read somewhere that only 3 Arihant class will make to service. First one will always remain as Tech demonstrator and for testing. Correct me if I am wrong.

How it will be feasible to install AIP in subs ??? We don't have AIP. I don't trust DRDO till they came with one. Not before that. (And Unfortunatly I am reading this from 4/5 years)

Still this didn't explain how the disel-elc sub will be 20 in numbers ???

IN has evaulated a number of AIP packs and found the Striling to the best, the Type-209s will be upgraded with this German system.

You may be right regarding the Arihant nos.

We can purchase foreign AIPs and get the foreign OEM to retrofit the subs. In this case, German Striling AIP in German Type-209 SSK.

Scorpene - 10 (6 + 4 to replace Kilo)
P-75I - 6
Type-209 - 4 (retrofitted with AIP)

Total 20 conventional subs.

why? am also worrying about its timeline.

No I was referring to the site which shows never-existing projects like Khuni-class SSBN etc.

Thats what is utter boulderdash and nonsense.

 

[arp2041]

IN has evaulated a number of AIP packs and found the Striling to the best, the Type-209s will be upgraded with this German system.

You may be right regarding the Arihant nos.

We can purchase foreign AIPs and get the foreign OEM to retrofit the subs. In this case, German Striling AIP in German Type-209 SSK.

Scorpene - 10 (6 + 4 to replace Kilo)
P-75I - 6
Type-209 - 4 (retrofitted with AIP)

Total 20 conventional subs.

I just want to add something here, when the GOI approved 30 years conventional submarine plan, they approved inducting 24 conventional subs, of this 6 are scorpenes (now may go upto 10), 6 P-75I & 12 subs were to be made by TOT of P-75 & P-75I, so just to add to ur point, there will be 12 more subs to be designed & manufactured individually.

..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy’s second Submarine Line will witness strong competition

Only in 1999, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) formally approved and recommended the long term plan for the local construction of 24 submarines over 30 years in two lines.

so i guess by 2030, IN will be having around 30-35 subs mix of conventional & nuclear propulsion & having a lot of punch

 

[Gessler]

I just want to add something here, when the GOI approved 30 years conventional submarine plan, they approved inducting 24 conventional subs, of this 6 are scorpenes (now may go upto 10), 6 P-75I & 12 subs were to be made by TOT of P-75 & P-75I, so just to add to ur point, there will be 12 more subs to be designed & manufactured individually.

..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy’s second Submarine Line will witness strong competition

I think India's shipyarsd will be fully booked with nuke subs for upcoming years, so where are we gonna buidl
12 more conventional subs?

I'd be really happy if true nevertheless. Perhaps in the distant future after the order for Scorpenes,
Arihants has been completed.

 

[arp2041]

I think India's shipyarsd will be fully booked with nuke subs for upcoming years, so where are we gonna buidl
12 more conventional subs?

I'd be really happy if true nevertheless. Perhaps in the distant future after the order for Scorpenes,
Arihants has been completed.

well the Arihant class has been made by SBC, Vishakapatnam + L&T shipyard, while MDL & HSL are making the conv. subs, i don't think this balance will be changed, so MDL will complete all scorpenes first (maybe by 2020 if 10 are counted), than 2 of the P-75I will be made in foreign shipyard & HSL building 1 of them (in parallel to scorpenes cons.) while MDL making the rest 3, so i think by 2023 or so Indian shipyards will be free to construct 2 parallel sub classes maybe completing the project by 2030

Numbers (by 2030):

scorpenes - 6 + 4 = 10
P-75I - 6
12 indeginious designed
5 Arihant class
2 Akulas
3-4 bigger ssgn/ssbn

35+ subs in IN's inventory

P.S. but i have not heard of any indigenous SSN project. why??

 

[Gessler]

well the Arihant class has been made by SBC, Vishakapatnam + L&T shipyard, while MDL & HSL are making the conv. subs, i don't think this balance will be changed, so MDL will complete all scorpenes first (maybe by 2020 if 10 are counted), than 2 of the P-75I will be made in foreign shipyard & HSL building 1 of them (in parallel to scorpenes cons.) while MDL making the rest 3, so i think by 2023 or so Indian shipyards will be free to construct 2 parallel sub classes maybe completing the project by 2030

Numbers (by 2030):

scorpenes - 6 + 4 = 10
P-75I - 6
12 indeginious designed
5 Arihant class
2 Akulas
3-4 bigger ssgn/ssbn

35+ subs in IN's inventory

P.S. but i have not heard of any indigenous SSN project. why??

The indigenous SSN will infact be a French Barracuda-class design or a Russian design based on Akula-II,
but fitted with Indian PWR reactor, torpedos and ASCMs, and build in Indian shipyards. IN would
buy atleast 9 such nuke attack subs.

 

[IND151]

^^ I don't think so

At max IN will order 4 SSNs

 

[arp2041]

^^ I don't think so

At max IN will order 4 SSNs

No, he can be right, every country operates more SSN than SSBN. Like PLAN operates 9 SSN & 4 SSBN while USN operates 53 SSNs & just 15 or so SSBN. Not just this, every country first make a SSN than goes for a SSBN, India is the only exception which is doing the opposite.

 

[Gessler]

^^ I don't think so

At max IN will order 4 SSNs

Not true. the no. of SSNs will have to be much more than SSBNs.

SSNs will not only have to provide underwater protection for SSBNs but also escort CBGs.

9 indigenous (of foreign design) + 2 Akula-class will be fine.

 

[selvan33]

No, he can be right, every country operates more SSN than SSBN. Like PLAN operates 9 SSN & 4 SSBN while USN operates 53 SSNs & just 15 or so SSBN. Not just this, every country first make a SSN than goes for a SSBN, India is the only exception which is doing the opposite.

because of our no nuke first use policy we are choosing SSBN but we will be getting few SSNs in future to escort our CBG.

 

[kurup]

The final 3 will have an option to add AIP later on, but the first three won't have any such option.

So how come Pakistan is retrofitting their Agostas with MESMA AIP ??

 

[Skull and Bones]

So how come Pakistan is retrofitting their Agostas with MESMA AIP ??

Maybe they had provisions to add AIPs later on.

 

[kurup]

I think when 4th and 5th SSBNs are inducted, 3rd and 4th SSBN (Arihant Class SSBNs) will be converted to SSGNs, armed with Nirbhay SLCM.

You meant 1st and 2nd right .

If we are comparing what the US did with Ohio class , Arihant with 4 silos will be able to carry 28 Nirbhay (7X4).

 

[sancho]

Can we upgrade them later with AIP?

The AIP propulsion requires the addition of a whole module section to the sub, so if you want to "upgrade" a diesel - electric sub to a AIP sub, you have to cut it half, add the new modul and weld everything together again.

So it is possible, but takes a lot of effort and costs, not to mention that there are risks if the joints are not correctly welded again.

I think India should go all-ahead with full-fledged nuclear submarines.

AIP-equipped subs are like interim measures for countries which do not/cannot procure or
maintain nuke-propelled ones. When India can build its own nuke subs and also lease some from
Russia, I think we should simply satisfy ourselves with non-AIP conventional subs and nuclear ones
forming the low and high-end combo.

Nuclear propulsions are costly and mainly are used for long range and endurance roles, but that is not important for most countries, which is why Diesel-Electric subs are still the best choice for the defence of certain coastlines.
For IN SSKs are important, because they are cheaper to procure and to operate, so can be ordered in higher numbers than SSNs for example. The addition of AIP makes Diesel-Electric subs even better, because they now have similar endurace as SSNs and sometimes are even quieter!
There main disadvantage is, that the AIP propulsion is limited to the fuel that is used and to very low speeds only, but for a sub that patrols in the Arabian Sea, low noise is the important factor not range or speed. That's why PNs Agostas now are a threat (although the only threat) now and that's why IN has to counter that as soon as possible with own AIP subs.

There are 2 crucial areas where our forces and MoD made major mistakes in the last few years and gave Pakistan an important advantage, the lack of AIP propulsion for subs and the late orders of more AWACS aircrafts!

IN has evaulated a number of AIP packs and found the Striling to the best, the Type-209s will be upgraded with this German system.

That's not correct, the Germans had offered the fuel cell AIP from the U214 as a retrofit for the U209 and that is the only AIP that is on offer to be used on the U209. And there is no decision made about the modernisation of the U209, actually the Scorpenes were meant to replace them too, the new sub competition is meant as an replacement of the Kilo subs

 

[Abingdonboy]

The AIP propulsion requires the addition of a whole module section to the sub, so if you want to "upgrade" a diesel - electric sub to a AIP sub, you have to cut it half, add the new modul and weld everything together again.

So it is possible, but takes a lot of effort and costs, not to mention that there are risks if the joints are not correctly welded again.



Nuclear propulsions are costly and mainly are used for long range and endurance roles, but that is not important for most countries, which is why Diesel-Electric subs are still the best choice for the defence of certain coastlines.
For IN SSKs are important, because they are cheaper to procure and to operate, so can be ordered in higher numbers than SSNs for example. The addition of AIP makes Diesel-Electric subs even better, because they now have similar endurace as SSNs and sometimes are even quieter!
There main disadvantage is, that the AIP propulsion is limited to the fuel that is used and to very low speeds only, but for a sub that patrols in the Arabian Sea, low noise is the important factor not range or speed. That's why PNs Agostas now are a threat (although the only threat) now and that's why IN has to counter that as soon as possible with own AIP subs.

There are 2 crucial areas where our forces and MoD made major mistakes in the last few years and gave Pakistan an important advantage, the lack of AIP propulsion for subs and the late orders of more AWACS aircrafts!





That's not correct, the Germans had offered the fuel cell AIP from the U214 as a retrofit for the U209 and that is the only AIP that is on offer to be used on the U209. And there is no decision made about the modernisation of the U209, actually the Scorpenes were meant to replace them too, the new sub competition is meant as an replacement of the Kilo subs

@sancho do you not agree that within the IN there are conflicting mindsets vis a vis the ACC vs Sub debate. This has lead to the failure to order subs in any meaningful numbers. This debate has only recently been settled because the IN now has funds to go down both paths simultaneously. The coming decade could see the induction of upto 20+ Subs if not more as well as 2-3 ACCs.