Face Veil removal request in Western Countries

[Blacklight]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

What an insightful post. Thank You!

Wrong. Many Muslims are born and brought up there, some are third generation. They don't have anywhere else to go, and have as much a right to practice their religion as anyone else.

Absolutely, but the face veil / niqab ban does have some merit. Don't you think so?

 

[CriticalThought]

What an insightful post. Thank You!


Absolutely, but the face veil / niqab ban does some merit. Don't you think so?

Nopes, I don't think so. In the West, it is a matter of women's choice and it is a choice for which people fought tooth and nail. The ban on niqab/veil is a set back to decades of efforts.

 

[Blacklight]

Nopes, I don't think so. In the West, it is a matter of women's choice and it is a choice for which people fought tooth and nail. The ban on niqab/veil is a set back to decades of efforts.

The niqab, or the niqab ban?

 

[CriticalThought]

The niqab, or the niqab ban?

Read again, I edited the post

 

[Blacklight]

Read again, I edited the post

As much as I would like to agree with you, my personal opinion is that, given the way how Kharijis have hijacked Islam, credible security threats, and successfully amalgamating into western society, it would be better to take it down a notch, and do away with the veil.

But this is just "my opinion"

 

[Divergent]

As much as I would like to agree with you, my personal opinion is that, given the way how Kharijis have hijacked Islam, credible security threats, and successfully amalgamating into western society, it would be better to take it down a notch, and do away with the veil.

But this is just "my opinion"

Makes sense.

The insightful post before was regarding my suspicion on your previous comment.

 

[CriticalThought]

As much as I would like to agree with you, my personal opinion is that, given the way how Kharijis have hijacked Islam, credible security threats, and successfully amalgamating into western society, it would be better to take it down a notch, and do away with the veil.

But this is just "my opinion"

Let me show you a benchmark through an hypothetical opinion: all non-purdah observing women should be forced to wear veil for their own safety. In the West, this is wrong because you are deciding something for non-purdah observing women. The opinion if aired publicly would be considered toxic. There would be much hue and cry. And so, although it is your mere opinion, it is a toxic opinion where you are imposing yourself upon the choice of veil wearing women. As a matter of fact, the basic premise of this thread is flawed and based on a bigoted and hypocritical pretext.

 

[Blacklight]

Makes sense.

The insightful post before was regarding my suspicion on your previous comment.

Sorry sometimes, even though I'm not tired, my brain switches off, it goes into power saving mode.

Let me show you a benchmark through an hypothetical opinion: all non-purdah observing women should be forced to wear veil for their own safety. In the West, this is wrong because you are deciding something for non-purdah observing women. The opinion if aired publicly would be considered toxic. There would be much hue and cry. And so, although it is your mere opinion, it is a toxic opinion where you are imposing yourself upon the choice of veil wearing women. As a matter of fact, the basic premise of this thread is flawed and based on a bigoted and hypocritical pretext.

TBH, on matters of religion, I'm not very well versed.

I understand what you are saying, but the issue is that you are a minority, and to live in their land, you do have to respect their laws. Therefore, some kind of middle ground, which would be agreeable to both parties, would help.

Any ideas what that middle ground is?

 

[Divergent]

Sorry sometimes, even though I'm not tired, my brain switches off.

Hmmm

Sorry sometimes, even though I'm not tired, my brain switches off, it goes into power saving mode.



TBH, on matters of religion, I'm not very well versed.

I understand what you are saying, but the issue is that you are a minority, and to live in their land, you do have to respect their laws. Therefore, some kind of middle ground, which would be agreeable to both parties, would help.

Any ideas what that middle ground is?

I know

 

[CriticalThought]

Sorry sometimes, even though I'm not tired, my brain switches off, it goes into power saving mode.



TBH, on matters of religion, I'm not very well versed.

I understand what you are saying, but the issue is that you are a minority, and to live in their land, you do have to respect their laws. Therefore, some kind of middle ground, which would be agreeable to both parties, would help.

Any ideas what that middle ground is?

The issue of women's choice is not a minority issue. You're calling 50% of the population a minority? There is no middle ground.

 

[Blacklight]

The issue of women's choice is not a minority issue. You're calling 50% of the population a minority? There is no middle ground.

50% in a western country - NO. Now my friend you are eschewing things here. The issue is of a "niqab ban /discouragement in western society"

An amicable middle ground could be, a transparent niqab? Don't shoot me, just asking.

 

[abdulbarijan]

I don't expect you to understand the issue in its fully complexity because you're not here and nor do you understand. Racial profiling happens in Pakistan too especially as I mentioned when the recent attacks during PSL happened, when such incidents happen the public expects the Government to take charge and they did. Similarly when incidents occur here, the public expects the Government to do something about it. Admittedly Islamphobia does exist but in all honesty the Faith in the West is by far more tolerant than that which is in the East and I have personally experienced that. You may not like to admit but the West to some extent had implemented basic etiquettes which Faith promotes even if it's unintentional.
We are not okay with profiling, had that been the case then the 'burkini' ban wouldn't have been repealed due to the amount of backlash it got.

- Which is exactly why I've been quoting research and statistics and videos from scholars whose entire profession is to understand what is happening.
-Racial/religious profiling does not work. The Ted video I've quoted with Dr Marc (a scholar with politics and security as his core interests) accounts for different cases where even the families of extremists tipped the authorities off, that their family member is now a security risk and that doesn't happen when you marginalize an entire community. That was the core of his message.
-As far as Pakistan doing the racial profiling, it was the P police that was found doing that and I don't have to tell what the general perception of how effective and efficient it is, because that opinion is rather well known. Again, our response to it from all corners of Pakistan was of outrage. Yet you stated it was "justified" and tried to make a connection with the situation you have at UK to forward your narrative about your "advice" and now your telling me that "we're not okay with profiling"

I believe this is my 10th time or so where I have repeatedly said I will legally defend the rights of those who wish to do so however morally due to current climates for security reasons as such incidents have occurred please remove it. Keep on the long abaya, the Hijab. No one can discriminate and realistically no law can ask for removal of that because then you can bring forward examples such as nuns, monks, rabbis and guess what? You can even throw in your 'jacket' dialogue in there - it covers the lot so that's out of the question.

-And I've repeatedly said, your "legal defense" will be of no use, when there is a hostile environment against wearing the attire (which there already is if we're to believe scientific polls and scholars that I've cited before). Heck, the very existence of your thread proves that point for me, where one of your prime pointers was "[Niqab]will endanger them due to excessive suspiciousness and uninvited discrimination". even though there is no legal hindrance for you in wearing the niqab.

So if nothing else sincerely answer this one question for the entire thread;

" Suppose if what you suggest (the 'willingful' abolishing of niqab by muslim women for xyz concerns) comes to pass, where muslim women decide what you suggested is completely fine and should be acted upon. Things settle down in 3-4 years and a young muslim lady wants to cover up her face and she has no legal hindrance in doing so. But will she be able to cover up her face considering;
-Her own sisterhood willingly gave up that attire.
-Now the bar for what the " socially acceptable level of covering up" has changed, thanks to the muslim women who handed out a smashing argument to the west i.e. "Other muslim women also cover up, why don't you cover up like them if you want to?"

Once, you give away your liberty, do you really think you'll be able to enjoy your previous rights even if there is no legal objection? The TSA in the US is a prime example of what happens when you trade off your personal rights for security, and I'm sure you haven't watched a single video I posted based on your last response, which totally neglected a video answering most of your points about profiling etc.

With all due respect I have seen more tolerant people of Faith here than I have in the East. Here the women happily attend study circles, go to Masjids are tolerant towards other people's beliefs and ideologies. That to me is Faith and coexistence.

Yeah sure, I can believe that. Especially when research as early as (Hyman and Sheatsley, 1953) had uncovered a correlation between education and political tolerance. Do I need to state the condition of education in mostly poor/war torn muslim countries vis a vis the west?

 

[Divergent]

- Which is exactly why I've been quoting research and statistics and videos from scholars whose entire profession is to understand what is happening.
-Racial/religious profiling does not work. The Ted video I've quoted with Dr Marc (a scholar with politics and security as his core interests) accounts for different cases where even the families of extremists tipped the authorities off, that their family member is now a security risk and that doesn't happen when you marginalize an entire community. That was the core of his message.
-As far as Pakistan doing the racial profiling, it was the P police that was found doing that and I don't have to tell what the general perception of how effective and efficient it is, because that opinion is rather well known. Again, our response to it from all corners of Pakistan was of outrage. Yet you stated it was "justified" and tried to make a connection with the situation you have at UK to forward your narrative about your "advice" and now your telling me that "we're not okay with profiling"

-And I've repeatedly said, your "legal defense" will be of no use, when there is a hostile environment against wearing the attire (which there already is if we're to believe scientific polls and scholars that I've cited before). Heck your the very existence of your thread proves that point for me, where one of your prime pointers was "[Niqab]will endanger them due to excessive suspiciousness and uninvited discrimination". So if nothing else sincerely answer this one question for the entire thread;

" Suppose if what you suggest (the 'willingful' abolishing of niqab by muslim women for xyz concerns) comes to pass, where muslim women decide what you suggested is completely fine and should be acted upon. Things settle down in 3-4 years and a young muslim lady wants to cover up her face and she has no legal hindrance in doing so. But will she be able to cover up her face considering;
-Her own sisterhood willingly gave up that attire.
-Now the bar for what the " socially acceptable level of covering up" has changed, thanks to the muslim women who handed out a smashing argument to the west i.e. "Other muslim women also cover up, why don't you cover up like them if you want to?"

Once, you give away your liberty, do you really think you'll be able to enjoy your previous rights even if there is no legal objection? The TSA in the US is a prime example of what happens when you trade off your personal rights for security, and I'm sure you haven't watched a single video I posted based on your last response, which totally neglected a video answering most of your points about profiling etc.

Yeah sure, I can believe that. Especially when research as early as (Hyman and Sheatsley, 1953) had uncovered a correlation between education and political tolerance. Do I need to state the condition of education in mostly poor/war torn muslim countries vis a vis the west?

I'll get back to you in a bit. Relax with the excessive underlining and colour coding.

 

[abdulbarijan]

I'll get back to you in a bit. Relax with the excessive underlining and colour coding.

I'm a kid ... I like it colorful

 

[CriticalThought]

50% in a western country - NO. Now my friend you are eschewing things here. The issue is of a "niqab ban /discouragement in western society"

An amicable middle ground could be, a transparent niqab? Don't shoot me, just asking.

First of all, don't screw the definition of niqab by talking about transparent niqab. If you really believe it is logical, please walk around in public in transparent clothes, top to bottom.

Seconfly, it is a matter of women's choice, simple. By belaboring the point, you are basically showing your true colors.