Face Veil removal request in Western Countries

[Divergent]

I'm a kid ... I like it colorful

Course you are. I'm out atm so any lengthy messages I'll post once I get home Lala.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Course you are. I'm out atm so any lengthy messages I'll post once I get home Lala.

Alrighty grandma

 

[Divergent]

Alrighty grandma

Alright Great Dada Ji

 

[Blacklight]

First of all, don't screw the definition of niqab by talking about transparent niqab. If you really believe it is logical, please walk around in public in transparent clothes, top to bottom.

Seconfly, it is a matter of women's choice, simple. By belaboring the point, you are basically showing your true colors.

Well I seemed to have touched a nerve here. My intention was not to upset you, sorry.

I dont think there is anything I can add more to this topic, so it would be best for me to leave this thread.

Once again I would like to apologize to both parties. My intention was not to hurt anyones sentiments.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Alright Great Dada Ji

Sure ... Lakkar Dadi Jan

 

[Divergent]

Sure ... Lakkar Dadi Jan

Alright Beta as long as you show me some respect I'm cool with

 

[Verve]

The issue of women's choice is not a minority issue. You're calling 50% of the population a minority? There is no middle ground.

Your have a valid argument but that 50% population is not going to stand up for the minority within.

In UK there may be a possibility of support but in mainland Europe, the fire is well lit and spreading.

Despite what people generalise about Brexit and how it happened, it will only benefit UK in long term and provides a buffer from a major clash of civilisations that's brewing in Europe.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Alright Beta as long as you show me some respect I'm cool with

Well as a person, I respect more or less everyone on here ... Some peoples' opinions though ... not so much

 

[Divergent]

Well as a person, I respect more or less everyone on here ... Some peoples' opinions though ... not so much

Look I deal with these cases, I attend conferences, I even have Imams and sisters who belong to the same community and Faith understanding it. I hear the non-Muslims out. As people we should meet middle ground.

The theories and everything you post is irrelevant to the question posed.

I'm not talking about the West as a whole, but a specific region which near missed a very recent terrorist attack.

 

[Verve]

- Which is exactly why I've been quoting research and statistics and videos from scholars whose entire profession is to understand what is happening.
-Racial/religious profiling does not work. The Ted video I've quoted with Dr Marc (a scholar with politics and security as his core interests) accounts for different cases where even the families of extremists tipped the authorities off, that their family member is now a security risk and that doesn't happen when you marginalize an entire community. That was the core of his message.
-As far as Pakistan doing the racial profiling, it was the P police that was found doing that and I don't have to tell what the general perception of how effective and efficient it is, because that opinion is rather well known. Again, our response to it from all corners of Pakistan was of outrage. Yet you stated it was "justified" and tried to make a connection with the situation you have at UK to forward your narrative about your "advice" and now your telling me that "we're not okay with profiling"


-And I've repeatedly said, your "legal defense" will be of no use, when there is a hostile environment against wearing the attire (which there already is if we're to believe scientific polls and scholars that I've cited before). Heck, the very existence of your thread proves that point for me, where one of your prime pointers was "[Niqab]will endanger them due to excessive suspiciousness and uninvited discrimination". even though there is no legal obligation for you in wearing the niqab.

So if nothing else sincerely answer this one question for the entire thread;

" Suppose if what you suggest (the 'willingful' abolishing of niqab by muslim women for xyz concerns) comes to pass, where muslim women decide what you suggested is completely fine and should be acted upon. Things settle down in 3-4 years and a young muslim lady wants to cover up her face and she has no legal hindrance in doing so. But will she be able to cover up her face considering;
-Her own sisterhood willingly gave up that attire.
-Now the bar for what the " socially acceptable level of covering up" has changed, thanks to the muslim women who handed out a smashing argument to the west i.e. "Other muslim women also cover up, why don't you cover up like them if you want to?"

Once, you give away your liberty, do you really think you'll be able to enjoy your previous rights even if there is no legal objection? The TSA in the US is a prime example of what happens when you trade off your personal rights for security, and I'm sure you haven't watched a single video I posted based on your last response, which totally neglected a video answering most of your points about profiling etc.

Yeah sure, I can believe that. Especially when research as early as (Hyman and Sheatsley, 1953) had uncovered a correlation between education and political tolerance. Do I need to state the condition of education in mostly poor/war torn muslim countries vis a vis the west?

Agreed and as I'd pointed out very early on in the thread that this is just the beginning and more clothing bans will follow. By supporting it now, it opens the doors for more.

It always starts as 'advisory' to test the reaction of population and then progresses to ban. This is a standard tactic by governments and groups are used to show the soft side in public. If one has dealt with government then it becomes easy to understand this.

Look I deal with these cases, I attend conferences, I even have Imams and sisters who belong to the same community and Faith understanding it. I hear the non-Muslims out. As people we should meet middle ground.

The theories and everything you post is irrelevant to the question posed.

I'm not talking about the West as a whole, but a specific region which near missed a very recent terrorist attack.

The ploy I've stated in post 524 is used by the UK government more than others. So you are part of the team tasked with taking pulse of the public?

 

[Divergent]

Agreed and as I'd pointed out very early on in the thread that this is just the beginning and more clothing bans will follow. By supporting it now, it opens the doors for more.

It always starts as 'advisory' to test the reaction of population and then progresses to ban. This is a standard tactic by governments and groups are used to show the soft side in public. If one has dealt with government then it becomes easy to understand this.



The ploy I've stated in post 524 is used by the UK government more than others. So you are part of the team tasked with taking pulse of the public?

I can't be bothered with you and your 'are you tasked to this' - I'm sorry I wish I could help with these conspiracies that your paranoid mind comes up with but I can't.

Please do not quote me nor refer to me. You are free to engage with others on this thread regarding the subject. Not me.

Thank you.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Look I deal with these cases, I attend conferences, I even have Imams and sisters who belong to the same community and Faith understanding it. I hear the non-Muslims out. As people we should meet middle ground.

The theories and everything you post is irrelevant to the question posed.

I'm not talking about the West as a whole, but a specific region which near missed a very recent terrorist attack.

-As far as experience goes, your right, I can't experience that, the best I can do is empathize, which is exactly why I said that it's YOUR CHOICE to dress the way that you want, also it's exactly why I said I'd be a hypocrite if I told you to dress like XYZ, when I dress what is considered to be western clothing.

-But when you say research is irrelevant it basically means that you have no answer for it. Research especially in social sciences is you throwing away your own feelings, consulting material that has been prepared by a whole lineage of exceptionally intelligent individuals / intellectuals where the goal is to multiply the experience you as an individual have, with thousands of others, so as to get a generic pulse at things. These aren't just numbers you see, these are experiences, opinions, feelings etc. represented and coded in numbers. Only the best out of the best go out from this pool of people to go out and form theories, so it's incredibly offensive if you start throwing the "research is irrelevant, it's the experience that matters" theory at me, while not realizing the magnitude of what your implying.

-But anyways, I do expect an answer for the questions and statements I made (especially in blue and red) cuz that would be quite interesting indeed. Anyways Dadi Hazoor ... Enjoy the shopping (Yes I just made a stereotypical assessment of what women do, while out i.e. shopping ) ..

 

[Verve]

I can't be bothered with you and your 'are you tasked to this' - I'm sorry I wish I could help with these conspiracies that your paranoid mind comes up with but I can't.

Please do not quote me nor refer to me. You are free to engage with others on this thread regarding the subject. Not me.

Thank you.

It's a question, not an accusation. No need to get wound up.

It's a standard practice by UK government to assign 'focus groups' when new laws are under review. A lot of the time the task of the focus groups is to take pulse and shape public perception to make it favourable for laws to be implemented.

I've dealt with UK government on new laws in a particular sector (not this) and know all too well how it all works.

 

[Divergent]

It's a question, not an accusation. No need to get wound up.

It's a standard practice by UK government to assign 'focus groups' when new laws are under review. A lot of the time the task of the focus groups is to take pulse and shape public perception to make it favourable for laws to be implemented.

I've dealt with UK government on new laws in a particular sector (not this) and know all too well how it all works.

Doesn't look like it.

 

[Verve]

Doesn't look like it.

Let's not start the assumptions again.

Are you part of a focus group (be it third party) on assignment from UK government? - this is a simple and straightforward question.