Face Veil removal request in Western Countries

[Divergent]

If you consider yourself to be a Pakistani. Then yes.
You represent a true leftist progressive Muslim. A rare breed indeed these days.

Wow. I'm humbled. Thank you

 

[abdulbarijan]

Not all of the West considers the Hijab backwards, the ground reality is quite different and exaggerated. In general the West doesn't brandish the 'Hijab' as backwards, except a few, there are odds everywhere. This doesn't justify brushing the whole region under the same colour.

There are females in Hijabs who are liberated within successful fields such as news reporters (Ch.4), company managers, teachers, models (Somalian model promoting Kanye West's brand), activists, fashion shows (modest show), successful television presenters, Youtubers (Dina Tokia, Amina, Nabila Bee etc) firefighters (yes you read that right) and CEOs. These are liberated and celebrated women who break all stereotypes and embraced in society.

Interestingly enough I'd like to point out the following to confirm, much of this movement was supported by the Middle-East and Muslim Countries too. In addition incidents that led to the decision:

Ottoman prohibition of the burqa: A reader points out that the Ottoman sultan gave the example of a burqa'ed man committing a robbery to ban the sheet-like apparel in April 1892. (November 19, 2012)

Amin al-Husseini escaped Palestine: Tipped off in July 1937 that the British police were coming to arrest him, the vile mufti of Jerusalem first took sanctuary on the Temple Mount for three months, then escaped Mandatory Palestine in October 1937 by putting on a woman's covering and sliding down a rope in the dark. He fled successfully to Lebanon where he resumed his pro-Nazi activities.

Iraqi irregulars in Deir Yassin: Troops from Iraq disguised themselves as women to enter the Palestinian town in early 1948.

Nuri al-Said failed to escape the revolution: Iraq's dominant politician during the period of the Hashemite monarchy tried to flee dressed in women's clothing in July 1958 but, the story goes, his shoes gave him away and he was shot.

"Disguised gunmen try to free terror leader": For details of how three Islamist terrorists tried to spring their boss from a prison hospital by dressing as women in abayas, see my weblog entry, "Saudi 'Counterterrorism' Efforts Fail Again." (June 9, 2004)

Burqa'ed commandos capture burqa'ed Al-Qaeda fugitive: On the plus side, a group of Pakistani commandoes disguised itself as women to wait out a ranking Al-Qaeda operative, Abu Faraj al-Libbi. And why were they in burqas? Tim McGirk of Time explains: "U.S. and Pakistani intelligence had received a tip that a suspected al-Qaeda operative would be traveling to [the town of] Mardan disguised as a burqa-clad woman. Because any plainclothesmen seen grabbing a woman would attract a hostile mob, the commandos had donned female garb and accosted the suspect as his motorcycle crossed a graveyard." (May. 8, 2005)

Afghan suicide bombers hides under burqa: Five Afghan soldiers were killed and four wounded when a suicide bomber, whom the police think was a Taliban member, disguised himself as a woman and sat in the backseat of a car, then set off a bomb hidden under his burqa at an army checkpoint in Khost province of eastern Afghanistan. According to Mohammed Ayub, the regional police chief, "The bomber probably wanted to go into Khost city for a suicide attack there, but panicked and blew himself up when the soldiers started checking." (February 2, 2006)

Al-Qaeda leadership in Iraq: Abu Mousab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq, eluded Western forces over a three-year period through wiliness. In the description of Bill Powell and Scott MacLeod of Time, "al-Zarqawi was a maddeningly elusive target—a master of disguise who could pass as a woman in a burqa one day, an Iraqi policeman the next." (June 11, 2006)

Oh and for the record, in some places hat are banned for CCTV issues such as Yorkshire.

Yet despite all this the removal of face veil is still a request. Not a law.

-Alrighty ... When you say, "not all of the west considers hijab backwards, the ground reality is quite different and exaggerated" ... you somehow seem to forget that, a poll by yougov in the UK found that nearly 57% of the respondents wanted a BAN on the burqa. In Germany, a recent survey by polling institute Infratest dimap showed that an overwhelming 81% of Germans favored a total ban on the burqa in some public places. 51% wanted it banned altogether.
Right now, the west that your defending has countries like France, Belgium and Switzerland with outright bans on the burqa already in place. Let's look up one of the countries with the burqa ban i.e. France. According to Peter Neumann, a professor of security studies at King's College ,

"I don't know of a single case in which a burqa ban stopped a terrorist attack or hindered someone's descent into terrorism."

Oh and btw, people just don't wake up and change their deeply held views. To quote a piece from catchnews about the burqa ban in france, they state;

"While over 1,500 women had been stopped. Most of the fines were to repeat offenders. That's because these women aren't going to change deep seated religious beliefs to avoid a fine. According to some activists, the ban has even turned got some women, who were previously indifferent to the veil, to start wearing it as a mark of protest against their community being targeted and stigmatized.
Police too tend to ignore most instances because, not only do they have more serious crimes to prevent. Further, while the act harms no one, these fines could cause massive communal tension. One fine even led to days of rioting. All of this points to the obvious reality that while burqa bans might seem great to paranoid Islamophobes, in reality they don't really work."
http://www.catchnews.com/internatio...-work-eu-germany-france-islam-1472840735.html

-Lastly, the ottomon empire is not exactly a great representation of Islamic principles, considering acts like homosexuality were decriminalized in the ottomon empire since 1858 and no point in bringing up XYZ incidents, cuz I know that such acts have taken place so quoting such incidents won't exactly sway my opinion. Next thing, we should ban people living in tree houses, cabins or seclusion, because well... you know, that was how the unabomber remained hidden for so long. right? BTW No one denies that there are hijabis who are liberated and successful. I personally never said that and don't understand the need for you to mention the obvious.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

 

[Divergent]

-Alrighty ... When you say, "not all of the west considers hijab backwards, the ground reality is quite different and exaggerated" ... you somehow seem to forget that, a poll by yougov in the UK found that nearly 57% of the respondents wanted a BAN on the burqa. In Germany, a recent survey by polling institute Infratest dimap showed that an overwhelming 81% of Germans favored a total ban on the burqa in some public places. 51% wanted it banned altogether.
Right now, the west that your defending has countries like France, Belgium and Switzerland with outright bans on the burqa already in place. Let's look up one of the countries with the burqa ban i.e. France. According to Peter Neumann, a professor of security studies at King's College ,

"I don't know of a single case in which a burqa ban stopped a terrorist attack or hindered someone's descent into terrorism."

Oh and btw, people just don't wake up and change their deeply held views. To quote a piece from catchnews about the burqa ban in france, they state;

-Lastly, the ottomon empire is not exactly a great representation of Islamic principles, considering acts like homosexuality were decriminalized in the ottomon empire since 1858 and no point in bringing up XYZ incidents, cuz I know that such acts have taken place so quoting such incidents won't exactly sway my opinion. Next thing, we should ban people living in tree houses, cabins or seclusion, because well... you know, that was how the unabomber remained hidden for so long. right? BTW No one denies that there are hijabis who are liberated and successful. I personally never said that and don't understand the need for you to mention the obvious.

The Niqab varies from the Hijab, those polls suggest what majority view is in the West regarding face veil which according to their customs and values differs. You should perhaps also look up the poll on how many agreed that hats, hoodies and helmets be removed in public places too and the percentage rate would be a lot higher. I'm not here to 'sway your opinion' you are entitled to yours and I am entitled to mine.

I just felt the need to point out the successful Hijabis in the West since you referred to the West seeing them as backwards when they got their success and are successful by being IN the West.

There is a difference between Hijaab and Niqaab.

Furthermore, you are not understanding the current situation. In Pakistan recently there was a document issued regarding Pashtun community be assessed and this created a huge outcry due to racial profiling. Yet the reason was justified because of the terrorists attacks that do happen usually have a linkage with Afghanistan, thus the Country had to take extreme measures to observe a 'certain' ethnic background especially from Afghanistan. This was racial profiling though it was not intended.

Lastly Pakistan itself doesn't recognise the Face veil as its 'cultural wear or national' wear. Yet for some odd reason the West especially a particular Country due to current circumstances asking for removal and not enforcing nor issuing out letters for 'strict observation' seems to be at question when it's something absolutely alien to them?

 

[Musafir117]

You sound like a broken record.

You can't backup your claims .. so you keep repeating your nonsense over and over again.

Proves nothing, other than your ignorance and stupidity of course

lol man
I know you are here for a long and still you engaging yourself with him or " like him " I was ready to put my opinions right after 9th or 10th posts but there were already a troller above me start playing his old broken record Liberal Shibral And I delete my post!
Well, continues I just stop to say How You Doing

 

[Hell hound]

lol man
I know you are here for a long and still you engaging yourself with him or " like him " I was ready to put my opinions right after 9th or 10th posts but there were already a troller above me start playing his old broken record Liberal Shibral And I delete my post!
Well, continues I just stop to say How You Doing

 

[abdulbarijan]

The Niqab varies from the Hijab, those polls suggest what majority view is in the West regarding face veil which according to their customs and values differs. You should perhaps also look up the poll on how many agreed that hats, hoodies and helmets be removed in public places too and the percentage rate would be a lot higher. I'm not here to 'sway your opinion' you are entitled to yours and I am entitled to mine.

-I don't know of such polls regarding hats, hoodies etc. If you find one, please post it so a fair comparison can be made.

I just felt the need to point out the successful Hijabis in the West since you referred to the West seeing them as backwards when they got their success and are successful by being IN the West.

-To quote a research by (Everett et. al, 2014) "In public discourse concerning the place of Muslims in Western society, we examined their impact on non-Muslims’ responses at both explicit and implicit levels. Results revealed that responses were more negative toward any veil compared with no veil, and more negative toward the full-face veil relative to the hijab"

Furthermore, you are not understanding the current situation. In Pakistan recently there was a document issued regarding Pashtun community be assessed and this created a huge outcry due to racial profiling. Yet the reason was justified because of the terrorists attacks that do happen usually have a linkage with Afghanistan, thus the Country had to take extreme measures to observe a 'certain' ethnic background especially from Afghanistan. This was racial profiling though it was not intended.

-So basically, we were outraged over an incident of racial profiling, and your fine with profiling. Good to know BTW, just a Ted talk regarding islamophobia, if you have time, do watch it.

Lastly Pakistan itself doesn't recognise the Face veil as its 'cultural wear or national' wear. Yet for some odd reason the West especially a particular Country due to current circumstances asking for removal and not enforcing nor issuing out letters for 'strict observation' seems to be at question when it's something absolutely alien to them?

View attachment 393971

-"Not recognizing" and "asking for removal" are two different ball games altogether. Secondly, like I said before, don't blame us simpleton eastern people for judging the west by the criteria it chose for itself.

 

[El Sidd]

The Niqab varies from the Hijab, those polls suggest what majority view is in the West regarding face veil which according to their customs and values differs. You should perhaps also look up the poll on how many agreed that hats, hoodies and helmets be removed in public places too and the percentage rate would be a lot higher. I'm not here to 'sway your opinion' you are entitled to yours and I am entitled to mine.

I just felt the need to point out the successful Hijabis in the West since you referred to the West seeing them as backwards when they got their success and are successful by being IN the West.

There is a difference between Hijaab and Niqaab.

Furthermore, you are not understanding the current situation. In Pakistan recently there was a document issued regarding Pashtun community be assessed and this created a huge outcry due to racial profiling. Yet the reason was justified because of the terrorists attacks that do happen usually have a linkage with Afghanistan, thus the Country had to take extreme measures to observe a 'certain' ethnic background especially from Afghanistan. This was racial profiling though it was not intended.

Lastly Pakistan itself doesn't recognise the Face veil as its 'cultural wear or national' wear. Yet for some odd reason the West especially a particular Country due to current circumstances asking for removal and not enforcing nor issuing out letters for 'strict observation' seems to be at question when it's something absolutely alien to them?

View attachment 393971

-I don't know of such polls regarding hats, hoodies etc. If you find one, please post it so a fair comparison can be made.

To quote a research by (Everett et. al, 2014) "In public discourse concerning the place of Muslims in Western society, we examined their impact on non-Muslims’ responses at both explicit and implicit levels. Results revealed that responses were more negative toward any veil compared with no veil, and more negative toward the full-face veil relative to the hijab"

So basically, we were outraged over an incident of racial profiling, and your fine with profiling. Good to know BTW, just a Ted talk regarding islamophobia, if you have time, do watch it.

"Not recognizing" and "asking for removal" are two different ball games altogether. Secondly, like I said before, don't blame us simpleton eastern people for judging the west by the criteria it chose for itself.

Brilliance flow through your ink.
If i can get you and bibi agree to something in the middle i will call that middle point Pakistan.

 

[Divergent]

-I don't know of such polls regarding hats, hoodies etc. If you find one, please post it so a fair comparison can be made.

To quote a research by (Everett et. al, 2014) "In public discourse concerning the place of Muslims in Western society, we examined their impact on non-Muslims’ responses at both explicit and implicit levels. Results revealed that responses were more negative toward any veil compared with no veil, and more negative toward the full-face veil relative to the hijab"

So basically, we were outraged over an incident of racial profiling, and your fine with profiling. Good to know BTW, just a Ted talk regarding islamophobia, if you have time, do watch it.

"Not recognizing" and "asking for removal" are two different ball games altogether. Secondly, like I said before, don't blame us simpleton eastern people for judging the west by the criteria it chose for itself.

I don't expect you to understand the issue in its fully complexity because you're not here and nor do you understand. Racial profiling happens in Pakistan too especially as I mentioned when the recent attacks during PSL happened, when such incidents happen the public expects the Government to take charge and they did. Similarly when incidents occur here, the public expects the Government to do something about it. Admittedly Islamphobia does exist but in all honesty the Faith in the West is by far more tolerant than that which is in the East and I have personally experienced that. You may not like to admit but the West to some extent had implemented basic etiquettes which Faith promotes even if it's unintentional.

We are not okay with profiling, had that been the case then the 'burkini' ban wouldn't have been repealed due to the amount of backlash it got.

I believe this is my 10th time or so where I have repeatedly said I will legally defend the rights of those who wish to do so however morally due to current climates for security reasons as such incidents have occurred please remove it. Keep on the long abaya, the Hijab. No one can discriminate and realistically no law can ask for removal of that because then you can bring forward examples such as nuns, monks, rabbis and guess what? You can even throw in your 'jacket' dialogue in there - it covers the lot so that's out of the question.

With all due respect I have seen more tolerant people of Faith here than I have in the East. Here the women happily attend study circles, go to Masjids are tolerant towards other people's beliefs and ideologies. That to me is Faith and coexistence.

 

[Junoonay]

-I don't know of such polls regarding hats, hoodies etc. If you find one, please post it so a fair comparison can be made.

-To quote a research by (Everett et. al, 2014) "In public discourse concerning the place of Muslims in Western society, we examined their impact on non-Muslims’ responses at both explicit and implicit levels. Results revealed that responses were more negative toward any veil compared with no veil, and more negative toward the full-face veil relative to the hijab"

-So basically, we were outraged over an incident of racial profiling, and your fine with profiling. Good to know BTW, just a Ted talk regarding islamophobia, if you have time, do watch it.

-"Not recognizing" and "asking for removal" are two different ball games altogether. Secondly, like I said before, don't blame us simpleton eastern people for judging the west by the criteria it chose for itself.

Amazing how all your responses are well-grounded with research, where as the other person is making claims out of thin air saying "since you don't live in West, therefore, you do not know what you are talking about"

Antisemitism originated in the West, and so is Islamophobia. As a matter of fact, Westerners agree that more Muslims are being discriminated in the West;

"Community surveys, focus groups and polls indicate that many Muslims feel there is discrimination against them in Canada after 9/11 (Helly, 2004; CAIR-CAN, 2002; Adams, 2007). Within the larger population, a recent poll by Ipsos Reid found that 60% of people surveyed felt there was increased discrimination against Muslims.[Cesari, J. 2011. Islamophobia in the West: A comparison between Europe and the United States] [In Islamophobia: The challenge of pluralism in the 21st century. John L. Esposito and Ibrahim Kalin, eds. New York: Oxford University Press, pp. 21-43.]"

The shooting inside a Quebec Mosque that killed five worshipers by an Alt-Right supporter.

The Dutch politician Geert Wilders, who has compared Quran to the Mein Kempf and called for banning it. Wilder's party, PVV, formed the opposition in the 2017 General Elections in Netherlands.

The example of Marie Le Pen and Donald Trump, who have likened Muslims to as snakes or spies, and Islam as a conflicting ideology with Western values.

With all due respect I have seen more tolerant people of Faith here

Then let women who choose to wear the niqab do so; stop being hypocritical.

 

[Zibago]

Did Bhutto posses you?
No wonder i call you Bibi because in my culture the word Bibi is rarely used.

Tip of the day: start writing bits in Roman Urdu as well when chanced.

Nope the word bibi is still used in Pakistan its only uncommon in the burger biradri

 

[Divergent]

Amazing how all your responses are well-grounded with research, where as the other person is making claims out of thin air saying "since you don't live in West, therefore, you do not know what you are talking about"

Antisemitism originated in the West, and so is Islamophobia. As a matter of fact, Westerners agree that more Muslims are being discriminated in the West;

"Community surveys, focus groups and polls indicate that many Muslims feel there is discrimination against them in Canada after 9/11 (Helly, 2004; CAIR-CAN, 2002; Adams, 2007). Within the larger population, a recent poll by Ipsos Reid found that 60% of people surveyed felt there was increased discrimination against Muslims.[Cesari, J. 2011. Islamophobia in the West: A comparison between Europe and the United States] [In Islamophobia: The challenge of pluralism in the 21st century. John L. Esposito and Ibrahim Kalin, eds. New York: Oxford University Press, pp. 21-43.]"

The shooting inside a Quebec Mosque that killed five worshipers by an Alt-Right supporter.

The Dutch politician Geert Wilders, who has compared Quran to the Mein Kempf and called for banning it. Wilder's party, PVV, formed the opposition in the 2017 General Elections in Netherlands.

The example of Marie Le Pen and Donald Trump, who have likened Muslims to as snakes or spies, and Islam as a conflicting ideology with Western values.



Then let women who choose to wear the niqab do so; stop being hypocritical.

Bless you.

Fun fact: I never said it didn't. In fact I do recall saying 'it does exist'.

They do wear and have worn the Niqab, learn to read words such as 'legally defend their rights'.

Stop being selective with your reading.

Nice try.

 

[Divergent]

Thank You for that clarification. Highly obliged. Duly noted. Now I will go and delete my short term memory

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[tarrar]

It is their country they will do as they wish & this hatred against Islam is all thanks to Bush & co.

 

[CriticalThought]

It is their country they will do as they wish & this hatred against Islam is all thanks to Bush & co.

Wrong. Many Muslims are born and brought up there, some are third generation. They don't have anywhere else to go, and have as much a right to practice their religion as anyone else.