'F-35 warplane facing turbulence at home and abroad'- What will Turkey do?

[cabatli_53]

So what it all comes down to is BVR?

I have a hard time believing BVR can not be overcome.

F-35 aims to detect the target without detected. I mean, A 5th generation stealth fighter always aims to push the fire button first without being detected... That's why It is being called as Stealth fighter jet. That's why She sacrifices some weapon payload capacity to keep his stealth characteristics alive...


Enemy don't have a secod chance against most secret F-35 AESA radar and latest generation BVR missiles developed with all technologies/expertise NATO countries had,

AMRAAM-D

METEOR

 

[cabatli_53]

It is officially announced that Turkey is also developing own WVR and BVR missiles. Most probably, Within 3-5 years, We would see them on aircrafts for trials.

Milliyet - Havadan havaya füzeler geliyor

 

[Quasar]

concerning the dogfight and JSF

-air superiority can only be established in the absence of an equivalent enemy air force

-and guess most of the time WVR encounters are inevitable and gonna be the main issue in general for the most of Air forces around the world.

-however, "first-look, first-shot, first-kill" is the new rule in the game since especially the introduction of AEW&Cs and now stealth (low observablity) is complementing this doctrine

-even when it comes to WVR... the question is should we go for high degree of maneuverability or TV (whch is only meangful in low speed) for the plane or AIM 9X or Python 5... The wise goes for high level of situational awareness and a decent missile...you cant out maneuver a missile anyway...

and here is the definition of situational awareness

Video Captures Ballistic Missile Defense Capabilities of Northrop Grumman's Distributed Aperture System for F-35

Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) released a video showing the successful detection and tracking of a two-stage rocket launch at a distance exceeding 800 miles (1,300 kilometers) with the company's AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System (DAS). The demonstration took place this summer during a routine flight test of DAS conducted aboard the company's BAC 1-11 test bed aircraft.

"DAS is an omni-directional infrared system that can simultaneously detect and track aircraft and missiles in every direction, with no practical limit on the number of targets it can track. DAS truly revolutionizes the way we think about situational awareness," said Dave Bouchard, program director for F-35 sensors at Northrop Grumman's Electronic Systems sector. "In recent testing, DAS has proven to have applications and capabilities beyond its initial requirements for the F-35, including ballistic missile detection and tracking, and counter-rocket, artillery and mortar (C-RAM) capabilities."

The video generated by DAS during the flight test has been magnified 10 times to allow clearer viewing of the rocket. Unlike other sensors, DAS detects and tracks the rocket at horizon-break without the aid of external cues. DAS algorithms continuously track the rocket through first-stage burnout, second-stage ignition, across DAS sensor boundaries, and through the rocket's second-stage burnout at a distance of more than 800 miles. The video also shows DAS' detecting and tracking the rocket's first-stage re-entry.

The AN/AAQ-37 DAS is designed to provide advanced situational awareness capabilities, including missile and aircraft detection, track, and warning for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. DAS also gives a pilot 360-degree spherical day/night vision, with the capability of seeing through the floor of the aircraft. An operational DAS system is comprised of multiple DAS sensors whose images are fused together to create one seamless picture. Because DAS is passive, an operator does not have to point the sensor in the direction of a target to gain a track.

Northrop Grumman Corporation is a leading global security company whose 120,000 employees provide innovative systems, products, and solutions in aerospace, electronics, information systems, shipbuilding and technical services to government and commercial customers worldwide.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-wa...eases-f-35-testing-records.html#ixzz2EjlyXa1O

 

[T-123456]

So when the pilot say that the Me-262 jet was like getting pushed by an angel, do you think its propaganda. Keep entertaining me.

The Yf-16 was the prototype F-16. It was in a competition with the YF-17 (which later became the F-18). It was built in the 70s, I'll explain to you later . You dont's know what's the YF-16! Wow

If you want to learn more just go to this site...
http://f-16.net/

Read it on F-16 site before but i tought it was a new project so come down from your high horse(never said im a fighterplane expert now did i?)
Dont come with old projects we are talking bout new 5th generation fighters.

 

[madmusti]

F-22 is Stealth F15 and Cold War Weapon !

F-35 is Multirole like F-16 and Stealth and a very new System ! (I know ,they started to make in the Cold War Era).

Why is USA then buy over 2.000 Units of F35 Versions? Are they Stupid ? I don´t think !

 

[revojam]

We will not back off from deal , F-35s will be Turkiye's new F-16s.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Not sure if this is related to the thread, but a good informative read

RF STEALTH (OR LOW OBSERVABLE) AND COUNTER-RF STEALTH TECHNOLOGIES: IMPLICATIONS OF COUNTER- RF STEALTH SOLUTIONS FOR TURKISH AIR FORCE

 

[VelocuR]

More bad news to NATO countries, more reductions and triple prices...

Ottawa officially scraps F-35 purchase as audit pegs F-35 costs at $45-billion

He reiterated that Canada wants to buy 65 jets for about $9 billion. But escalating costs and delays have dogged the F-35, which is now the most expensive U.S. Department of Defense procurement program ever.

A KPMG report says the lifetime cost of Canada owning 65 F-35's is estimated at $45.8 billion over 42 years.

The Canadian government has estimated its 65 F-35s will cost just $75 million each to acquire. But the parliamentary budget officer pegs that number at $148 million.

Japan has said it may cancel its plans to buy dozens of the F-35s and Australia has said that to cut costs it is pushing back delivery of most of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighters. The Netherlands has also said it will trim its order.

The next-generation fighter is set to become the centerpiece of U.S. and allied air forces. Canada is a funding partner in developing the Joint Strike Fighter. Most of the funding comes from the United States, while Australia, Turkey, Britain, Italy, Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands are also funding partners.

Read more: Canada to consider other fighter gets besides costly F-35 | Fox News

Read more: Canada to consider other fighter gets besides costly F-35 | Fox News

This means, cancellations from Canada, Japan, and other reduced from some countries, it will cost triple high prices to participants involving Turkey. However, I don't think, Turkey would understand other necessary alternative options than pregnant heavy F-35s. US government is considering other companies competitions instead Lockhead Martin to speed up the process, Lockhead Martin continue to make US disappointing and cost burdening, same repeating ongoing issues.

The US government is trying to reduce military spending and officials have warned orders will be cut if costs continue rising.

"We have told the contractor and the program office that there is no more money," Michael Donley, the U.S. secretary of the air force, said on March 20.

But the amount of money that is in the pot is still substantial. The 19 F-35As that the U.S. will acquire in fiscal year 2013 will cost $197 million each. In 2001, the projected cost for these jets was $69 million.

The cost per plane is expected to drop later in the production cycle, assuming the order numbers do not.
F-35's exorbitant cost clouds its future - Canada - CBC News

 

[VelocuR]

First of all, F-35's to be joined to Turkish inventory will mostly used as stealth bomber. Although some of Turkish 240 F-16's will be chaged to protect F-35's at likely air clashes against Russian aircrafts, The F-35 can protect himself better than a classic 4th generation fighters. Actually, Dogfights remain the Russian concept, While NATO completely changes the strategy for air engagement. Instead of performing sharp manouvrings with pushing the limits of aircraft and pilots, F-35 will lock on targets with latest generation HMDU and fire the AA missile which has capability of performing increadile mouneuvring and having resistance of huge G forces, Even If the tagrte to be locked locating behind of aircraft so While makin some assessments about issues, Don't forget to remember the increasing capabilities of NATO technologies to be applied for costumers...

This is expectations, it make sense to me F-35 as stealth bomber role, US government increasingly frustrated with Lockheed Martin (LM) and consider different companies instead LM in order to speed up the process and saving money, HDMU is still ongoing issues that LM promised by solving HDMU within few more months, however, it doesn't. It takes alot of times and long process. Still poor dogfights in real combats, not clips from youtube. Canada realize it, pls don't listen to Lockheed Martin's claims.


Can you answer questions, F-35 can survive air defences in regards of S-300/S400? yes or no?

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, by both definition and design, is fundamentally unsuited to any one and every one of these basic needs.

-The F-35 lacks the range, missile payload, radar performance and especially supersonic performance to be effective in the strategic air defence role, and with a single engine puts the lives of Canadian pilots at unnecessary risk in harsh Arctic conditions.
-The F-35 lacks the supersonic performance, missile payload, radar performance, agility and stealth performance to be effective in combat against the Su-35S Flanker E+, and has no ability to compete with the Sukhoi PAK-FA. This makes the F-35 ineffective in strategic air defence, if fighter escorts are deployed, and ineffective in expeditionary campaigns where the opponent operates such fighters.
-The F-35 lacks the stealth performance to penetrate modern air defence systems armed with weapons such as the S-400, S-300PMU2, HQ-9 and planned S-500, especially if these SAMs are supported by modern “counter-stealth” radars operating in the lower radar bands.
-In uncontested COIN operations, the F-35 lacks the payload and endurance to perform well, does not have the ballistic survivability for Close Air Support (CAS), and the CTOL variant demands long runways for operations, limiting choices in deployment sites.

If Turkey deploy F-35.......

If Canada does deploy the F-35 JSF as its primary fighter aircraft, the Su-35S and PAK-FA could operate in and fly through Canadian sovereign airspace with complete impunity.

If we take a hard analytical perspective on what Canada's long term strategic needs in fighter aircraft are, as distinct from DND bureaucratic “wants” in this area, several considerations become prominent:

-National air defence will require a large twin engined fighter with superlative supersonic performance, superlative radar performance, and a large missile payload to defeat strategic bombers and their cruise missile payloads;
-The proliferation of advanced long range fighters such as the Su-35S and PAK-FA will put a premium on combat agility for both beyond visual range (BVR) and within visual range (WVR) engagements, supersonic agility, and stealth performance;
-Expeditionary campaigns into “contested” airspace will require the ability to survive against advanced SAM systems such as the S-400, S-300PMU2, HQ-9 and planned S-500, putting a premium on high stealth performance;
-Expeditionary campaigns in COIN environments will require the ability to operate from shorter airfields, with high endurance and large, varied weapon payloads.

 

[Ir.Tab.]

More bad news to NATO countries ... Turkey would understand other necessary alternative options than pregnant heavy F-35s.

The main article is for The New York Times:

Canada Reviews Plans to Buy F-35 Fighter Jets

Canada said Wednesday that it would reconsider plans to buy 65 F-35 fighter jets after an independent audit found that the sophisticated stealth planes would cost substantially more than the government had promised.

...

Until recently, the ruling Conservative Party in Canada swiftly rejected any suggestion that the country not buy the F-35s. Two years ago, Mr. Harper said that critics of the acquisition were “playing politics with the lives of our men and women in uniform.”

...

Ms. Ambrose and Mr. MacKay repeatedly used the word “reset” on Wednesday and avoided questions about what that step would mean in evaluating alternatives. The ministers and officials, however, did make it clear that no decision had been made to start a formal competition among aircraft manufacturers and acknowledged that it remained possible that Canada would stick with the F-35.

...

She said that Canada’s decision to review its options seemed similar to a high-level review the Pentagon conducted in 2010 when problems were mounting with the planes. Top Pentagon officials determined then that they had no alternative that could provide the same capability.

...

Possible alternatives to the F-35 include an updated version of Boeing’s F/A-18 Hornet, called the Super Hornet, and several European models.

...

Separately on Wednesday, the government also reduced its estimate of business that Canadian companies were likely to win from F-35 contracts to $9.8 billion from $12 billion.


As you see there is no problem with the performance but the cost of 5th generation fighters. However for the rule that Turkey needs this fighter as the replacement of their long range attacking fighters (F4 fleet), stealth is very important. Unfortunately at current, there is no other option.

 

[Ir.Tab.]

Okay fine, you can focus on New York Times routinely.

Your source had used NY article! with some strange highlights!

Let's talk about Iran, what's achievement ??

Here? off-topic my friend. lets try it in a proper place! Turkish moderatoress! is very sensitive to off-topic posts!

 

[cabatli_53]

More bad news to NATO countries, more reductions and triple prices...

Ottawa officially scraps F-35 purchase as audit pegs F-35 costs at $45-billion



This means, cancellations from Canada, Japan, and other reduced from some countries, it will cost triple high prices to participants involving Turkey. However, I don't think, Turkey would understand other necessary alternative options than pregnant heavy F-35s. US government is considering other companies competitions instead Lockhead Martin to speed up the process, Lockhead Martin continue to make US disappointing and cost burdening, same repeating ongoing issues.

December 12, 2012
ANKARA [MENL] -- Turkey has become the first export customer of the navy
variant of the Joint Strike Fighter.

Turkey Quietly Orders Navy F-35 - MiddleEastNewsline

100 F-35A + NAVY F-35 B/C

 

[Esc8781]

This is expectations, it make sense to me F-35 as stealth bomber role, US government increasingly frustrated with Lockheed Martin (LM) and consider different companies instead LM in order to speed up the process and saving money, HDMU is still ongoing issues that LM promised by solving HDMU within few more months, however, it doesn't. It takes alot of times and long process. Still poor dogfights in real combats, not clips from youtube. Canada realize it, pls don't listen to Lockheed Martin's claims.


Can you answer questions, F-35 can survive air defences in regards of S-300/S400? yes or no?



If Turkey deploy F-35.......

If we shouldn't listen to Lockheed Martin's claims, then all of the companies must be lying about their plane, eh? Where the hell did you get that article from APA?

Read it on F-16 site before but i tought it was a new project so come down from your high horse(never said im a fighterplane expert now did i?)
Dont come with old projects we are talking bout new 5th generation fighters.

YOu should review the YF-16, because it had many, many problems... Look at the F-16 is now.

For everyone who is saying that the F-35 is an under-powered POS.

On November 3, CF-2 flew an HMD Jitter FTR mission completing first pilot evaluation.
-- On November 14, during setup for a 45,000 ft test point, AF-4 flew to 50,000 ft, the design altitude limit. This is the first time F-35 has flown to 50K.
-- On November 30, BF-1 accomplished the longest duration F-35 hover at 10 minutes.
-- On December 3, BF-1 accomplished its 200th vertical landing at PAX and completed maximum weight hover, vertical landing and 90 degree translation on December 6.
-- On December 6, BF-4 flew the first STOVL mode night ops, including night hover.

 

[T-123456]

December 12, 2012
ANKARA [MENL] -- Turkey has become the first export customer of the navy
variant of the Joint Strike Fighter.

Turkey Quietly Orders Navy F-35 - MiddleEastNewsline

100 F-35A + NAVY F-35 B/C

why do we order navy variant?
we dont have a AC and not planning to get one or are we?,
Can someone explain?

 

[VelocuR]

why do we order navy variant?
we dont have a AC and not planning to get one or are we?,
Can someone explain?

Turkish Navy adopts new high-sea strategy

ISTANBUL- Hürriyet Daily News

This file photo shows a Spanish platform which Spain wants to sell to Turkey.

Turkey’s Naval Forces aim to protect lanes of communication on the high seas to assure global maritime security and protect national interests under an austere defense budget as part of its new strategy, a top Turkish Navy commander has said.

“Our force planners use strategic decision-making, focusing on sophisticated, modular designs that allow us to move toward economy in our operations with fewer crew and lower fuel costs. The objective is to maintain and develop a credible naval force despite budget constraints,” Admiral E. Murat Bilgel, commander of the Turkish Naval Forces, said in an interview in the March issue of Proceedings, a monthly magazine published by the United States Naval Institute.

For these purposes, the Navy must be a versatile, well-trained, and well-equipped force that can be deployed at strategic distances, Bilgel said, adding that the force must be “fully interoperable with its military and nonmilitary counterparts while protecting sea lanes of communication and being prepared to support joint and combined land activities from the sea.”

To achieve these goals, the Navy will make the best use of Turkey’s shipbuilding and design capacity at domestic naval and private shipyards, research centers, and via the defense industry, the admiral said.

The top commander also gave information on the Navy’s future strategy. In the short term, the Navy will improve its situational awareness capabilities by adding corvettes and patrol boats to its fleet. Within a decade, the Turkish Naval Forces will focus on conducting operations other than war by building a reconfigurable landing platform with airlift capability, a combat-support ship, multifunctional frigates with unmanned and manned rotary-wing aircraft, as well as air-independent propulsion submarines.

The Navy aims to advance its limited-strike ability over the next 20 years through the acquisition of a multipurpose landing platform with organic short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft, air defense frigates and unmanned underwater vehicles.

The Turkish Navy is already planning to buy the design for its first landing platform dock (LPD) Three Turkish-led groups are currently vying for the contract that will be worth between $500 million and $1 billion.

Turkey is expected to spend more than $4 billion on defense procurement this year. In recent years it has focused on Navy programs. Multibillion-dollar naval programs have included the joint production of six modern submarines with Germany, as well as the largely local manufacture of eight corvettes.

“In line with [our] objectives, we will continue to sustain operational effectiveness and a deterrent posture through innovation, maintaining the strategy and technology interface, exploiting indigenous capacity, prioritizing projects and continuous manpower education and training,” Bilgel said.

March/13/2012