F-22P a bad decision by PN?

[Myth_buster_1]

Abbas Sb, just imagine you are very hungry and wish to have a nicely cooked Full Chicken Roast, but unfortunately you get just a leg piece of the leg roast instead of the full desired.

So what you gonna do, eat what you get or say no no no i don't wanna eat a single piece i need full chicken roast. You will eat the piece offered to get something in your stomach & fulfill some of your hunger and wait for some other day to eat one full roast.

the question is if china is our best friend then why did it not offer better technology like type-054 with the same price tag as f-22P?

By the time we get hardly one OHP frigate in operational status, we might be having 3 F-22Ps in service, 2 already in testing phases.

2010 is the time frame and only 2 F-22P will be in service. F-22P would have been a great ship if it was inducted a decade earlier.

US has just said yes for one OHP, the others are in no sight of when to get, so why waste a decade on some uncertainty, as who knows when US again embargoes us and blocks the OHP in getting to us. Latest Harpoon missile row is a testament to US double standards in dealing with us.

NO. the US agreed that they will supply OHP to pakistan and first one will arrive in 2010 while their reserve OHP fleet will be retried much much sooner and send off to PN much quicker. It will only take months for USN to retire its FFG-08 refurbish it and send it to us. And dont think believing in conspiracies will help pakistan in any way.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I don't know why but i am not satisfied with the procurement of F22Ps, why we are so eager to induct phassed out oliver perry class ship from US which is a 70s technology when we have F22Ps?, the answer is simple, US obsolete technology is better then the new chines frigates, thats what makes me uncomfortable with F22Ps, i think we should have brought in western technolgy instead of chinese...

you are right on the spot. Though it will be very hard for our pakistani fellows to swallow this bitter truth. We should have better opted for type-054 if it was ever offered to us "their best friend".

 

[muse]

Mr. Niazi

What if you are wrong about the reason why we have accepted the Perry class vessel? I'm not suggesting that you are wrong, but I am suggesting since we do not know exactly why the Perry class ship has been accepted (other than it is a very cheap stop gap), we might keep our powder dry.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

Mr. Niazi

What if you are wrong about the reason why we have accepted the Perry class vessel? I'm not suggesting that you are wrong, but I am suggesting since we do not know exactly why the Perry class ship has been accepted (other than it is a very cheap stop gap), we might keep our powder dry.

Please elaborate muse! what are you hinting at?

 

[muse]

Righteous


I'm not sure I'm hinting at anything - what I am pointing towards is that a key element in our relations with the US is armaments and it's the same with the US in their relations with US - we also know that Pakistan Navy has needed equipment as a stop gap in their attempt to modernize the force -- The Perry Class ship satisfies to some degree both of the criteria mentioned above.

We also know that there has not been much informed debate in Pakistan about once again putting trust in the US as a security partner - now, Growler has suggested that we might want to move on from this experience of the past and that things are different - and ofcourse he is right that things are different now, but not that different and the US is not a security partner we ought to rely on to such a degree that we will entertain even the possibility of betrayal, once again - I think the Pakistani nation will lynch the political and military leadership that even tries to sell that to the public.

We know that there are several initiatives, that against piracy and the 1000 ship (Mullen) partnership and to the degree that positive cooperation is possible and constructive, we should but never to thte degree that we will ever drop our guard against this fickle partner.

 

[muse]

First F-22P Frigate arrives

KARACHI: PNS Zulfiqar, the first F-22P frigate of the Pakistan Navy, arrived on Saturday amid the ongoing naval exercise in the Arabian Sea. A navy press release said the ship, constructed in China, was welcomed by the navy’s surface and aviation units conducting the exercise. The PNS Zulfiqar is the first of four ships being constructed in collaboration with China in Shanghai

 

[wild peace]

Pakistani F-22P Frigate arrives in Karachi
Ship's_characteristics.jpg (image)

Pakistan Navy's surface warfare capabilities got a boost as it received first of the three missile carrying Chinese F-22P frigates.The new Frigate, christened PNS Zulfiqar, armed with ship-to-ship and ship-to-air missiles and is the first of the three ordered from China, arrived at this southern port city.

pns+(2).JPG (image)

Under the $750 million contract for the frigates, China will also supply four to six Harbin Z9EC anti-submarine warfare helicopters to Pakistan.The two other frigates are expected to be handed over to Pakistan by the end of 2010. Islamabad will build the fourth warship of the same class in Karachi which is expected to be commissioned by mid-2013, Naval spokesman Commander Mubeen Bajwa said.

Ship's_characteristics+-+Copy.jpg (image)

The new frigates will enhance the Pakistan Navy's surface warfare capabilities. They will also be used to escort oil supplies from the Gulf in the event of any hostilities, Bajwa toldl.The collaboration with the Chinese for building the fourth F-22P frigate in Karachi had helped modernise Pakistan's shipbuilding capabilities, Bajwa said.The country will move from building smaller vessels to frigate-size warships, he added.

 

[Quwa]

As with any major American system, there is always a relatively large degree of uncertainty that is attached. While the PN may be able to acquire as many as 6 OHP frigates, the issue of upgrading them with optimal weapon-systems is a big question mark. Will the U.S. allow the transfer of ESSM? How does the U.S. want Pakistan to use these vessels in the immediate future? How much life do these OHP hulls have anyways before we can funnel in hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade them?

While I'm not impressed with the F-22P's armament, I do believe there is a fair scope for upgrade potential in the near future. I'm sure in the near future the PN could refit the ships with better sensors, electronics, sonar, etc. As for weapon-systems, the main area of concern is the AAW and ASW. However I don't think refitting F-22P with Umkhonto-IR/NG as well as something like MU90 would be a huge stretch. At least we would have 4 ships to upgrade to such a scale; the MILGEM and new-FFGs are at least a decade away from full service.

 

[uncoxi36]

only four word:
more money more better

 

[applesauce]

the question is if china is our best friend then why did it not offer better technology like type-054 with the same price tag as f-22P?


2010 is the time frame and only 2 F-22P will be in service. F-22P would have been a great ship if it was inducted a decade earlier.

NO. the US agreed that they will supply OHP to pakistan and first one will arrive in 2010 while their reserve OHP fleet will be retried much much sooner and send off to PN much quicker. It will only take months for USN to retire its FFG-08 refurbish it and send it to us. And dont think believing in conspiracies will help pakistan in any way.

1. because china is a friend and not the mother of pakistan, we can work out very nice terms but there is a limit we cant just give away 500 million dollar ship for 250 brand new, also 054 were not around at the time the f22p's were ordered
2.yes but the orders would have to have been placed ealier and at that time the tech was just not there in china
3.i like the us ships too but theres not many of them the us is willing to give to pakistan, other wise take all u can while they're still cheap and avalible

 

[Penguin]

i do have some understanding of the issue but what i cannot understand is how can one clear the sea for pleasure of other when he feel that it is necessary for his nations survival,,
anyhow let us get back to topic as we two never seem to agree on a point !!

regards!

ok

 

[jamal18]

The one point I am unhappy about is that only one f-22P is being made in Pakistan; I would have been happier if three were built.
Again, we now have the technology to build frigates, why not build more rather then order four (new?) ones from germany or US?

What is the point of all this technology transfer if nothing is being designed and built in Pakistan?

And you guys sem to forget the financial angle in everything, second-hand US frigates offer considerable capability fore inconsiderable cost.

Same with the F-22P instead of 054, how much can you afford? And yes the chinese are Pakistan's friend, but there are limits to how much they can give for free.

I get the impression that many in Pakistan have a mindset that China owes them a living.

 

[Penguin]

The one point I am unhappy about is that only one f-22P is being made in Pakistan; I would have been happier if three were built.
Again, we now have the technology to build frigates, why not build more rather then order four (new?) ones from germany or US?

What is the point of all this technology transfer if nothing is being designed and built in Pakistan?

And you guys sem to forget the financial angle in everything, second-hand US frigates offer considerable capability fore inconsiderable cost.

Same with the F-22P instead of 054, how much can you afford? And yes the chinese are Pakistan's friend, but there are limits to how much they can give for free.

I get the impression that many in Pakistan have a mindset that China owes them a living.

The way I see that, it is practice as naval shipbuilding. A subsequent order of 4 might be domestically fullfilled, and that order could wel involve some modification of the design (i.e. installation of some non-chinese foreign weapons and sensors e.g. VL SAM.

 

[TaimiKhan]

the question is if china is our best friend then why did it not offer better technology like type-054 with the same price tag as f-22P?


2010 is the time frame and only 2 F-22P will be in service. F-22P would have been a great ship if it was inducted a decade earlier.

NO. the US agreed that they will supply OHP to pakistan and first one will arrive in 2010 while their reserve OHP fleet will be retried much much sooner and send off to PN much quicker. It will only take months for USN to retire its FFG-08 refurbish it and send it to us. And dont think believing in conspiracies will help pakistan in any way.

Sir, we had in the past also very hotted debates on this issue, but good to see that you still sticking to your guns , that's good.

No one contests the superiority of American Technology, but as told again & again by many, that US is a not reliant partner. Remember when our nearly half naval fleet got reduced when US took back the leased ships. PN was left hanging with Pakistan getting vulnerable to great extent. Plus its not yet decided which weapons US will give us with OHP, its all speculations up till now. Time will tell.

As for F-22P, the ship #s 252 & 253 are already in the sea, fitting of weapons, systems & trials are in different stages for both ships. All sources have confirmed that by next year end we will get the other two ships, making a fleet of 3 ships operational by 2010.

As for ships combat systems & electronic systems, problem is that we all know the specifications which have been quoted on papers & few years old. No one knows what real capability is of these systems.
Just like JF-17, whose radar & systems are being quoted still 5 year old ones, but in reality sources now say that its radar is changed & more powerful then the original quoted.

And as for 054 frigates, the original 054 was not up to the mark, it had same HQ-7 missiles, just like F-22P, CIWS were of russian origin the AK-630s, radars were of Russian origin, which would have no use for us as Russian involvement would have come into play.

Then comes the 054A series, many modifications, lot of improvent, HQ-9 missile (Russian Shtil System equivalent or copy), AESA radar etc etc. But problem is that Chinese Navy needed these ships themselves in numbers, only around 8 still confirmed yet, being manufactured included in them. And the origin of its radars & other electronic systems still not clear yet, as some say its purely Chinese, some say Russian equipment still there in it.

But now China is in a position to sell the 054As to PN, which may suggest that now the platform has matured enough that all equipment is Chinese on it.

We will get 3 F-22Ps within 4 years after signing the deal, pretty fast for such platforms. And as for OHPs i have not come across any source which can tell exactly when will we or by when we will get the 6 ships, except for the one next year. Any link specifying when will USN retire them & give us & the confirm weapon configuration ??

For having a suitable presence to deter, F-22P is sufficient & in future hope so more capable platforms are inducted.

 

[Guest]

shell we take a vote to find out "Who is the most stupid?"
candidate 1: PN,choosing chinese frigates rather than US's [175M vs 0];
candidate 2: IN, choosing russian carrier rather than US's [20+B vs 0];
candidate 3:USN, offering ships at "000000" dollars;