F-22 vs J-20 - aka USA-made jet fighters vs China-made jet fighters

[samsara]

Btw if you guys
@gambit @jhungary @Gomig-21 @Okarus and any one else having so much appetite to PROLONG such exchanges, why don't you just create a NEW THREAD for that purpose, perhaps titled "F-22 vs J-20" or in broader sense "USA-made jet fighters vs China-made jet fighters"??? I can care less what you guys are going to exchange there!!

Last time @Deino could create a new one to accommodate Ahok's J-20 engine things, so why not this one? That's more proper, more civilized act in any forum instead of trying to screw it with your unwelcomed bombardment!!

Or, is this is a Wild Wild West FORUM with no rules ???

 

[Deino]

Just to pick up @samsara's idea !

 

[Figaro]

Just ignored them, they believe what they believe, so just agree for disagree. For long time I always curious why they always derailed good discussion into endless debate. Please continue...

Well, at least these posters now have a dedicated thread to continue their trolling in ...

 

[Gomig-21]

Just to pick up @samsara's idea !

Just FYI, if this forum had a private messaging, I would PM you out of respect for you regarding this but since there isn't, and you're the International Moderator of this section, I have no choice but to say it in this post.

Mind explaining to me what part of any of my posts were not related to the J-20? I'm a bit confused since the thread is titled "J-20 News and Discussion." What part of any of my posts were not related to discussing the J-20 since every one of them were about the J-20's weapons bay and its whole bracket/door concept? Even if the comparison is made with the F-22, that's still a discussion regarding the J-20 so it is related to the thread title and per forum rules. You even participated in that discussion when you were defending @gambit 's point! Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?

Either you took one member's hissy fit to heart and felt you had to do something where now it will be a ridiculous free-for-all insult bashfest like the childish comment in the above post (which I really want nothing to do with,) or, there's something I'm missing. No one was holding a gun at that member's head making him read the material. But I'm positive my posts were 100% related to the J-20 and within forum rules.

So I would appreciate an answer so I can understand what that word "discussion" means in the context of what you think it should be and while you're at it, please site me the forum regulations that my discussions were a violation of. I'll wait for your answer or if you prefer, we can ask @The Eagle or @waz maybe they can tell me exactly what forum rules my posts broke.

Well, at least these posters now have a dedicated thread to continue their trolling in ...

Grow up.

 

[Figaro]

Just FYI, if this forum had a private messaging, I would PM you out of respect for you regarding this but since there isn't, and you're the International Moderator of this section, I have no choice but to say it in this post.

Mind explaining to me what part of any of my posts were not related to the J-20? I'm a bit confused since the thread is titled "J-20 News and Discussion." What part of any of my posts were not related to discussing the J-20 since every one of them were about the J-20's weapons bay and its whole bracket/door concept? Even if the comparison is made with the F-22, that's still a discussion regarding the J-20 so it is related to the thread title and per forum rules. You even participated in that discussion when you were defending @gambit 's point! Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?

Either you took one member's hissy fit to heart and felt you had to do something where now it will be a ridiculous free-for-all insult bashfest like the childish comment in the above post (which I really want nothing to do with,) or, there's something I'm missing. No one was holding a gun at that member's head making him read the material. But I'm positive my posts were 100% related to the J-20 and within forum rules.

So I would appreciate an answer so I can understand what that word "discussion" means in the context of what you think it should be and while you're at it, please site me the forum regulations that my discussions were a violation of. I'll wait for your answer or if you prefer, we can ask @The Eagle or @waz maybe they can tell me exactly what forum rules my posts broke.



Grow up.

If you want to pointlessly argue with Gambit, it's your time that's being wasted LOL . I'm just trying to help you here ... but beware, some ppl have years of experience with this.

 

[Gomig-21]

If you want to pointlessly argue with Gambit, it's your time that's being wasted LOL . I'm just trying to help you here ... but beware, some ppl have years of experience with this.

If you think it's "pointless arguing," then I'm afraid you still have a lot to learn about the difference between trolling and debating. And let me help you a little bit here without being too harsh on you; but you're the last one out of the many younglings on this forum who has anywhere near the years I have. Judging by your trolling accusation posts and the little laughing emoticons you use to make your point, I'm probably 2-1/2 times your age. So please do yourself a favor and never presume to give me any elder advice about anything or anyone with experience. Thank you.

 

[Figaro]

If you think it's "pointless arguing," then I'm afraid you still have a lot to learn about the difference between trolling and debating. And let me help you a little bit here without being too harsh on you; but you're the last one out of the many younglings on this forum who has anywhere near the years I have. Judging by your trolling accusation posts and the little laughing emoticons you use to make your point, I'm probably 2-1/2 times your age. So please do yourself a favor and never presume to give me any elder advice about anything or anyone with experience. Thank you.

Okay ... so having more years of membership on this forum suddenly makes you superior from an argumentative and intellectual standpoint. Well, that statement stands for itself ... by that logic, Mr . Gambit, who also has many years of membership on this forum (more than most posters ... including yourself) is just debating and not trolling in any way shape or form (despite his incendiary remarks abt Chinese members). Patronizing posters who haven't been here as long (e.g. calling them younglings) does not make your case any stronger I'm afraid. If you want to continously debate in circles with him, that's your call ... as for me/others, we just want more J-20 developments and serial numbers.

Just FYI, if this forum had a private messaging, I would PM you out of respect for you regarding this but since there isn't, and you're the International Moderator of this section, I have no choice but to say it in this post.

Mind explaining to me what part of any of my posts were not related to the J-20? I'm a bit confused since the thread is titled "J-20 News and Discussion." What part of any of my posts were not related to discussing the J-20 since every one of them were about the J-20's weapons bay and its whole bracket/door concept? Even if the comparison is made with the F-22, that's still a discussion regarding the J-20 so it is related to the thread title and per forum rules. You even participated in that discussion when you were defending @gambit 's point! Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?

Either you took one member's hissy fit to heart and felt you had to do something where now it will be a ridiculous free-for-all insult bashfest like the childish comment in the above post (which I really want nothing to do with,) or, there's something I'm missing. No one was holding a gun at that member's head making him read the material. But I'm positive my posts were 100% related to the J-20 and within forum rules.

So I would appreciate an answer so I can understand what that word "discussion" means in the context of what you think it should be and while you're at it, please site me the forum regulations that my discussions were a violation of. I'll wait for your answer or if you prefer, we can ask
Grow up.

Because no one wants to listen to you and Gambit ramble over his ridiculous claims. If you want to k why there is a separate thread, there is precedent. Last year, there was a poster called Asok who was derailing the thread with 240 kN WS-15 claims and using grainy videos to decipher the J-20's turn radius. Hence there was an endless engine discussion thread. Your constant arguments with Gambit is not so different from the aforementioned scenario and thus deserves a separate thread.

 

[Torch_v2.0]

https://www.military.com/defensetec...srael-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china

 

[gambit]

I'm giving you scientific principles and all you can say is it doesn't mean anything? Hahaha. I'm going to give you Moore's Law explanation one more time, and that's it because every knows you're a waste of time.

You gave principles that are not applicable. It tells me that you have no experience in R/D, manufacturing, and testing, let alone military experience.

What I say next is applicable to everything that is at the USER'S LEVEL.

For every complex system, there are are four main items, in order of significance:

CAPABILITIES
FEATURES

FUNCTIONALITY
EFFICACY

Notice I paired them.

Capabilities are the foundation of features. Take the throttle and control stick, for examples. Every jet have a throttle, a control stick, and assortment of switches. These are capabilities. The throttle is related to propulsion, the control stick to the flight controls system, and the various switches changes certain aircraft conditions and even performance. To change aircraft configuration, the pilot must remove his hands from the throttle and/or control stick to activate the various switches. Hands-On-Throttle-And-Stick (HOTAS) changed all of that. HOTAS is a feature. HOTAS is a shortcut to configuration changes. With HOTAS, the pilot can change the jet's mission from air-air to air-ground to TOL or long distance cruise.

The definition of functionality is an operation. Companion to that is a range of that operation, such as the ordinary water faucet that have a range of flow from a trickle to an outpour. Your knee has a range of motion in its bending function. Efficacy is how much resources and time are necessary to execute that function. Usually, the less the better. An example is the radar system, as in how quickly can it change its mode of operation from air-air to air-ground.

So when we combine everything together, HOTAS made the jet better.

It does not matter if the various cockpit switches have the finest plastics and gold plated connections. If the pilot has to remove his hands from the throttle and control stick, all that grade A materials do not contribute one bit to his flying or fighting. Moore's Law has nothing to do with this. All that computing speed is useless if the pilot has to remove his right hand from the control stick, thereby temporarily not in control of the jet, to flip a switch on the radar control panel to switch from search (fan beam) to boresight (pencil beam). The electronics maybe the fastest in the world in changing modes, but the speed of the pilot's hand moving from control stick to radar panel and back to control stick is still the same, slower if he is under g.

I know what 9-g feels like in the F-16. How about you?

HOTAS is just one example of what make a '4th gen' fighter more advanced than a '3rd gen' fighter. Full Authority Engine Digital Control (FADEC) is another difference. So far, nothing is known about the J-20's capabilities. All we have are unverified claims.

The last pair -- Functionality and Efficacy -- is what can save or kill a pilot.

If you want people outside of Chinese language forums to believe the J-20 is 'more advanced' than the F-22, you must provide sources that at least outlined and explained how in terms of the above four items. Inside those Chinese language forums, anyone will believe anything you say as long as they are positive things about the J-20. They are that gullible. But you will not get away with that in this forum.

Your PERSISTENT, relentless posts here are what really annoying, you filled up this thread with your posts, not about the J-20. I can ignore your one or two posts voicing your opinions, just keep quiet and say nothing, but relentless bombardier??? Is this a THREAD about J-20 or F-22 ???

So when you guys post negative news and personal commentaries about US, it is fine? But if I challenge your claims about the J-20, it is not fine? What are you afraid of?

This is a publicly accessible forum. That means for every one forum participant, you can count on 100 silent readers out there. I do not posts to change you guys' minds. None of you are objective and mature enough to debate technical issues. When proven wrong, not one of you have even the courage to say something as simple as: " I will consider your points. "

I do not posts to 'win' but to counter falsehoods and misleading arguments. The silent readers out there can see the difference.

 

[Gomig-21]

If you want to continously debate in circles with him, that's your call ...

Exactly. And it's not yours, nor the member who took that huge hissy fit NOR IS IT the Intentional Moderator's call to simply remove entire discussions from a thread without at least an explanation.

as for me/others, we just want more J-20 developments and serial numbers.

Good for you. You don't see me complaining and calling you trolls like you did, do you? And again, it's not up to you nor the member who took a hissy fit and caused all this stupidity NOR IS IT the International Moderator's call to decide what discussion is allowed or not allowed if the thread title officially says "DISCUSSION"! Unbelievable.

Your constant arguments with Gambit is not so different from the aforementioned scenario and thus deserves a separate thread.

This is a public forum, neither you, nor the member who took a hissy fit and ridiculously influenced the International Meodarator to decided what subject matter is allowed or is not allowed if the subject matter relates to the J-20. PERIOD! The sooner you and the rest who have an issue with these debates realize you don't OWN THIS FORUM and can't make these decisions and on top of all that we have an International Moderator who is so easily influenced by other members having claptrap hissy fits when no one is forcing any of you to read the material, the sooner you will understand that nothing was wrong and against the rules of the forum.

You can reply but I'm done with you regarding this matter.

@Deino , waiting for your explanation and your sighting of the forum rules that the discussion violated. If you don't answer, then it will be pretty obvious that you don't have an answer and that YOU YOURSELF VIOLATED THE FORUM RULES as an International Moderator by removing pertinent discussions. I hope it doesn't come down to that.

 

[Deino]

@Deino , waiting for your explanation and your sighting of the forum rules that the discussion violated. If you don't answer, then it will be pretty obvious that you don't have an answer and that YOU YOURSELF VIOLATED THE FORUM RULES as an International Moderator by removing pertinent discussions. I hope it doesn't come down to that.

To admit I don't know why you come up to that idea that I violate the rules ... and what "pertinent discussions" I was removing? I was exactly moving this nasty part of the discussion into a separate thread since I do not want to read each post and flame bait.
I'm right now on the highway to France in summer-vacation with the family and I'm very much more busy in driving than to care about the Kindergarten here; by the way, why always me? There are other moderators too....

When I arrived I will take a look, but please have a bit patient.

 

[samsara]

To admit I don't know why you come up to that idea that I violate the rules ... and what "pertinent discussions" I was removing? I was exactly moving this nasty part of the discussion into a separate thread since I do not want to read each post and flame bait.
I'm right now on the highway to France in summer-vacation with the family and I'm very much more busy in driving than to care about the Kindergarten here; by the way, why always me? There are other moderators too....

When I arrived I will take a look, but please have a bit patient.

May you and your family have safe and wonderful holiday, Deino. I wish that I can escape the cruel "summer", the city where I live has the nasty, agonizing persistent "summer", nearly the whole year :-(

 

[Figaro]

Good for you. You don't see me complaining and calling you trolls like you did, do you? And again, it's not up to you nor the member who took a hissy fit and caused all this stupidity NOR IS IT the International Moderator's call to decide what discussion is allowed or not allowed if the thread title officially says "DISCUSSION"! Unbelievable.

If you read closely, I wasn’t calling you a troll and was instead referring to Gambit, whom we can all agree fits that definition. In fact, I tried to tell you to stop arguing pointlessly with such trolls ... which I guess you took as an insult.

This is a public forum, neither you, nor the member who took a hissy fit and ridiculously influenced the International Meodarator to decided what subject matter is allowed or is not allowed if the subject matter relates to the J-20. PERIOD! The sooner you and the rest who have an issue with these debates realize you don't OWN THIS FORUM and can't make these decisions and on top of all that we have an International Moderator who is so easily influenced by other members having claptrap hissy fits when no one is forcing any of you to read the material, the sooner you will understand that nothing was wrong and against the rules of the forum.

Dude calm down. Moderator @Deino is a highly respected member of this community ... even if some express different opinions than him. The fact is you’re not a moderator ... you don’t get to decide what’s wrong and what’s right. Clearly, nobody has expressed interest in constantly/pointlessly arguing with Gambit. No one wants to click on the J-20 thread only to see dozens of argument postings between you and Gambit ... which is why the moderator was kind enough to grant you a separate thread.

waiting for your explanation and your sighting of the forum rules that the discussion violated. If you don't answer, then it will be pretty obvious that you don't have an answer and that YOU YOURSELF VIOLATED THE FORUM RULES as an International Moderator by removing pertinent discussions. I hope it doesn't come down to that.

Just a word of advice ... when you request moderator action, perhaps accusing him or her of breaking the rules without adequate justification shouldn’t be the first step.

 

[Brainsucker]

@Figaro : Just buy popcorn and enjoy their bickering. We don't need to do anything, as long as they don't derailed the main topic of the original thread. Let them proof who is the most superior between one of them. Maybe it is a contest, or maybe it is an intellectual challenging for them to beat the other camps in an endless debate. If you join the bickering, I'm sure that you'll suffer in the abyss of never ending arguments in this thread.

@Gomig-21 : Please ignore Figaro and continue your "debate" with Gambit. I'll become your supporter. Go Go Go Gomig!!!! Don't lose, Dude. You must win!

 

[Ultima Thule]

@Figaro @Gomig-21 and @gambit not doing useless troll/discussions about weapon bays for J-20 and F-22, they are discussing the technical aspects for weapon bays of J-20 and what is concepts behind such weapon bays of J-20 what is the advantages/disadvantages of such systems and @Figaro we are just an armature enthusiast which don't knows nothing about technical aspects of all these weapons but @gambit sir stayed in this fields and knows better than all of us that what is the technical aspects of all these weapons @Figaro