F-22 Raptor pilots practice simulated combat against Pakistan, UK & France Pilots

[PAFAce]

Close up of PAF F-7PG


http://img300.imageshack.us/i/j7126125867372728.jpg/ http://g.imageshack.us/img300/j7126125867372728.jpg/1/

MashAllah! What a beaut. Thank you, taimikhan, for this treat.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Would definitely want to know how our F7's fared against other aircrafts, maybe Murad Sahab can help us out on this topic.

 

[illuminatus]

Would definitely want to know how our F7's fared against other aircrafts, maybe Murad Sahab can help us out on this topic.

That's a very good question. I'm also very interested in knowing how our F-7PG fared against the Mirage and F-16s in particular.

On a different note, PAF has been very wise to send in F-7PG instead of F-16 or JF-17. The UAE on the other hand used their best fighter, namely the F-16 Block 60 equipped with an AESA radar and advanced electronics. It seems that everyone took a serious beating against the F-22. Of course, quite expectedly. Though, one would have expected a little fight from the advanced UAE F-16s.

 

[zagahaga]

f 22 from what i know is that its a lousy plane in the winter ie. could very could its weapons doors get closed or jam ... and rain? it has no stealth in the rain and every time it costs millions of dollors just for a simple check up? but its a beast a fighter that kills

 

[gambit]

f 22 from what i know is that its a lousy plane in the winter ie. could very could its weapons doors get closed or jam ... and rain? it has no stealth in the rain and every time it costs millions of dollors just for a simple check up? but its a beast a fighter that kills

Then what you know is either wrong or incomplete.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

There was no compatibility issue over here. PAF should not have sent its F7's in that excercise---it was useless---there was nothing to learn except to be killed in a different manner in every sortie.

This excercise intself was shown to display the ultimate superiority of the F22 against anything else flying in the air.

Anybody here plays cricket---played aganist a stronger team---which scored 350---400 runs and your team was all out for 50 runs---so what did you learn out of it---nothing---except to play in your own league.

The human factor creeps in---super studs---like air force jocks don't want to feel totally against the adversary. It is ok for the pilots flying against their own planes even though they get beat up---.

If it was used as a wake up call for the PAF---then it is okay---other than that the only thing to learn is not to mess with the usaf at this time.

 

[blain2]

Hi,

There was no compatibility issue over here. PAF should not have sent its F7's in that excercise---it was useless---there was nothing to learn except to be killed in a different manner in every sortie.

I beg to differ Mastan. There is plenty to learn. You seem to be basing your statement on the assumption that all there is to it is to get up there and do one-on-ones against each other all day long. This is not so. In the PAF, F-7PGs are tasked with air-superiority and air-defence roles. When you are flying escort to strike packages as part of a LFE, these are some of the same types of profiles that our PG pilots fly. Secondly, F-22s were there, however other aircraft were there as well...since PAF is not planning on flying against a 5th gen equipped adversary in the lifetime of the F-7PG, it makes ample sense for these aircrews to get out there and exercise with them.

This excercise intself was shown to display the ultimate superiority of the F22 against anything else flying in the air.

Be that as it may, others want to know where they stand in comparison to the 5th generation solutions.

Anybody here plays cricket---played aganist a stronger team---which scored 350---400 runs and your team was all out for 50 runs---so what did you learn out of it---nothing---except to play in your own league.

You learn a lot. You learn how to better prepare you tactics. You learn how they plan for missions. You get insight into their maintenance and logistics just by talking to each other. You realize if you are limited against such an aircraft, whether those limitations apply to a non-5th generation aircraft. Learning is always good and lastly, PAF does not just send any aircraft without reason to such exercises. These are costly affairs with well thought out planning down to specific goals to be achieved with such participation.

If it was used as a wake up call for the PAF---then it is okay---other than that the only thing to learn is not to mess with the usaf at this time.

Flying against the Raptor is a wake up call for everyone but the USAF. However PAF got to fly against Jordanians F-16s, UAE's M2K-9s and blk-60s. Flying against such aircraft is of immense benefit to the PAF pilots from F-7PG sqns. Keep in mind the statement of the USAF pilot who said that Raptor pilots with 200 or so hours went up against other pilots from different countries with a couple of thousand hours under their belts and beat them. What do you think these pilots with 2000+ hours are going to do when they come back? I am sure they will be imparting this experience and knowledge to the younger pilots.

To me this is no different than USAF bringing their F-15s for an exercise with PAF's Mirages and the venerable F-6s back in 1978. Great experience and great learning by our side. I see nothing different this time either.

You fly against the Raptor, you pick a thing or two against other adversaries.

 

[blain2]

f 22 from what i know is that its a lousy plane in the winter ie. could very could its weapons doors get closed or jam ... and rain? it has no stealth in the rain and every time it costs millions of dollors just for a simple check up? but its a beast a fighter that kills

Despite any teething issues, it is by far the best fighter aircraft currently and for the next 15 years.

 

[Quwa]

Exposure to the capabilities of a 5th generation fighter will also leave something to consider for PAF senior officers: What are the strengths of 5th-gen. fighters? Are they worth the expense (F/A-22 also took on M2K-9 & Block-60)? Should priority now be given to acquiring this capability? It was experiences like this which pushed the PAF to seek F-16 and AWACS back in the 1980s.

This time, the PAF may start lobbying for F-35 or at least talk to China about developing a 5th-generation fighter suitable for PAF. There is no doubt that IAF is seeking this capability, and the PAF cannot afford such a gap.

 

[blain2]

Talking about foreign exercises, came across a very fine artist's impression of PAF F-16 taking on RSAF F-15 during Al-Saqoor 06:

Al-Saqoor,+The+show+begins..jpg (image)

The painting depicts a Royal Saudi Arabian Airforce F-15S of No. 6 Sqn. Releasing flares as a PAF F-16 of No. 11 Sqn makes a head on pass at the start of a dogfight during Al-Saqoor Exercise 2006.

 

[MastanKhan]

I beg to differ Mastan. There is plenty to learn. You seem to be basing your statement on the assumption that all there is to it is to get up there and do one-on-ones against each other all day long. This is not so.



You learn a lot. You learn how to better prepare you tactics. You learn how they plan for missions. You get insight into their maintenance and logistics just by talking to each other. You realize if you are limited against such an aircraft, whether those limitations apply to a non-5th generation aircraft. Learning is always good and lastly, PAF does not just send any aircraft without reason to such exercises. These are costly affairs with well thought out planning down to specific goals to be achieved with such participation.



Hi,

Your argument seems like the participants are living in ETHER and impotency has no effect over loss---. There is always the human factor at stake when you go into any competition---where only thing that you can represent is ' how many different ways you can be pummelled into submission '---those competitions have never been known to be learing experience for anyone---rather a lesson in futility.

I am just basing this discussion on the F22 and the F 7 pg's---I am pretty sure that there were other fields that pak would have learnt somethings and that is well and good---.

It is just like putting your SKODA against the FERRARI racing team and then saying,' we are here to learn even though you will beats the pants off us '---oh gee---.

For learing experience for F 7 pg fighters, they can be pitched against anything else except the F22, F35, F 15, Typhoon's, su 30's---.

You know why they have different leagues in sports---so that similiar teams can compete against each other---you know why they don't have competition amongst the teams in dissimiliar leagues---because they know that the superior team would pummel the inferior team to kingdom come---the psychology of humiliating defeat would be so great that the losing team will be emotionally pulverized.

if this system was so great and there was such a great learning experience, then light weight boxers would be fighting against the heavy weight boxers---getting pummelled---but they did indeed learn a valuable lesson if they lived through it---DON'T MESS WITH THE BIG DOG.

 

[MastanKhan]

Exposure to the capabilities of a 5th generation fighter will also leave something to consider for PAF senior officers: What are the strengths of 5th-gen. fighters? Are they worth the expense (


Hi,

Paf will have no clue as to what the strengths of that 5 th gen fighter aka F 22 is---paf will only know what it is told---and trust me on that---it will be equal to hardly anything---minimal---zilch---nada---americans are not telling anyone what the capabilities of the raptor are---they are not telling the british---not the israelis---or the italians the german or the scandinivians---everybody is left in a hole. They will place the best of the best of all the nation against the raptor and take out everyone of them, one at a time or two---as they desire.

It is only left to speculators---whatever information, that is released is already available in general defence forums.

The F 7 pg's were sent to make the americans happy---because the americans wanted to train against the pakistanis for awhile---.


I know that iot hurts the PAKISTANI EGO big time if they hear that their pilots didnot make a difference or didnot put up a fight.

 

[illuminatus]

^^ I agree about one thing. All we can do is speculate. Perhaps someone from within the ranks can shed some light on this issue.

 

[Quwa]

Exposure to the capabilities of a 5th generation fighter will also leave something to consider for PAF senior officers: What are the strengths of 5th-gen. fighters? Are they worth the expense (


Hi,

Paf will have no clue as to what the strengths of that 5 th gen fighter aka F 22 is---paf will only know what it is told---and trust me on that---it will be equal to hardly anything---minimal---zilch---nada---americans are not telling anyone what the capabilities of the raptor are---they are not telling the british---not the israelis---or the italians the german or the scandinivians---everybody is left in a hole. They will place the best of the best of all the nation against the raptor and take out everyone of them, one at a time or two---as they desire.

It is only left to speculators---whatever information, that is released is already available in general defence forums.

The F 7 pg's were sent to make the americans happy---because the americans wanted to train against the pakistanis for awhile---.


I know that iot hurts the PAKISTANI EGO big time if they hear that their pilots didnot make a difference or didnot put up a fight.

lol...you completely missed the point of my post.

The PAF isn't concerned about the performance of the F/A-22 in of itself, but 5th-generation fighters. This is the first time the PAF got exposure to "the future" of aerial combat, and needs to know the advantages or disadvantages of pursuing the path of 5th. gen fighters. In other words, 'are they worth all the buzz'? If they're as good as people make them out to be, then the PAF will start investing some of its resources into acquiring this capability within a reasonable and suitable timeframe.

Yes, a debate surrounding the use of 5th. generation fighters does exist...some European countries don't seem too keen on it, and prefer to stick to 4.5+ gen. fighters and invest in their development, as well as in UCAVs. While others around the world (Russia, China, India, Japan, etc) would like this capability, perhaps even in conjunction with 4.5+ gen. fighters - i.e. Australia, India & China.

Thus, the point is that 'did the F/A-22 impress the PAF to the point where it would now seek 5th-generation fighters?' If so, then the PAF will likely pursue it in one of two ways, or both: Lobby for F-35, and/or invest in the Chinese equivalent, which is their second 5th. generation fighter program (source-link).

Even if PAF were to invest in the "Chinese JSF", proper mass induction of this fighter in PAF may not start until the 2030-2040s (when we would see the first JF-17s replaced), hence it's likely an interim solution - such as F-35 - may be sought, especially in context of replacing the older F-16A/Bs. I doubt U.S. would care too much as (1) PAF would have a similar system in the pipeline with China, (2) you can water-down or "customize" a fighter for export, (3) why not make a quick good buck when you can, (4) as if India - with greater espionage and industrial resources than Pakistan won't pull off "funny business" with U.S. technology (5) Pakistan is a Major non-NATO Ally (MNNA).

Secondly, I find it interesting that PAF is sending fighters it can count on as opposed to the absolute best for exercises against top-notch equipment. Clearly, it shows a drive to compare one's mainstay with systems that are comparable - if not superior - to that of your biggest rival. Tells you that plans and tactics are being set into motion for those "days" when F-7s & Mirages will have to take-on giants such as Su-30MKI and MMRCAs.

Once JF-17 is inducted into several squadrons, my guess is that we'll see an "exposure variant" of it exercise with those fighter-titans. This would give the PAF a clear idea of where to strengthen the JF-17, and India a clear message that the capability to deter them is widely spread and diffused within PAF, not concentrated. This is a "major-power" capacity. It's like saying "yes the tip of my sword can pierce your heart, but the body of my blade will break your back..."

 

[gambit]

lol...you completely missed the point of my post.

The PAF isn't concerned about the performance of the F/A-22 in of itself, but 5th-generation fighters. This is the first time the PAF got exposure to "the future" of aerial combat, and needs to know the advantages or disadvantages of pursuing the path of 5th. gen fighters. In other words, 'are they worth all the buzz'? If they're as good as people make them out to be, then the PAF will start investing some of its resources into acquiring this capability within a reasonable and suitable timeframe.

Yes, a debate surrounding the use of 5th. generation fighters does exist...some European countries don't seem too keen on it, and prefer to stick to 4.5+ gen. fighters and invest in their development, as well as in UCAVs. While others around the world (Russia, China, India, Japan, etc) would like this capability, perhaps even in conjunction with 4.5+ gen. fighters - i.e. Australia, India & China.

That is because the Euros know that if push come to shove, the US will come to Europe's defense with the best we got.