F-22 Frigate arrives in Karachi

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It would be nice to have frigates in the 4 k to 5 k ton capacity---but as much as the heavy equipment is important---so are the light weights in the 2 k category---.

Not all operations are meant to befor the deep waters---but equally important are the coastal waters as well.

As much as a show of strength the heavies are----the light ones also pack the punch which is surprisingly extremely lethal and deceptive. The british corvette is no joke.

It is not neccessary to have 'PITT BULLS' to do all kinds of jobs. The terriers come in very handy as well.

There are two scenarios coming up at a very rapid pace----the first one is these british corvettes----the second one is the availablity of german u214's, readied and manufactured for greece---which is dilly dallying the payment.

The british know that the pak navy is in desperate need of equipment---pak navy will have max pressure put on them to purchase those items---same thing with the german U boats---.

On the political side---pakistan is in europe asking for trade---asking for concessions---well---when the last time they were asking for the same---we screwed up royally----we had contract set and done for the air bus---at the last moment---we switched over to boeing---we screwed ourselves so hard---the europeans got mad at and gave us all kinds of trouble---even sanctioning what kind of aircraft could fly into europe.

These are very interesting times for pak diplomacy.

Guys---look beyond the non-helicopter option----not all platforms will have helicopters---it is not practical and bottomline is, it is not done that way for now.

Does the british corvette make a good partner with the F 22---is the different weapons system an asset to pak navy and a headache to the IN---?

 

[Arsalan]

Hi,

It would be nice to have frigates in the 4 k to 5 k ton capacity---but as much as the heavy equipment is important---so are the light weights in the 2 k category---.

Not all operations are meant to befor the deep waters---but equally important are the coastal waters as well.

As much as a show of strength the heavies are----the light ones also pack the punch which is surprisingly extremely lethal and deceptive. The british corvette is no joke.

It is not neccessary to have 'PITT BULLS' to do all kinds of jobs. The terriers come in very handy as well.

There are two scenarios coming up at a very rapid pace----the first one is these british corvettes----the second one is the availablity of german u214's, readied and manufactured for greece---which is dilly dallying the payment.

The british know that the pak navy is in desperate need of equipment---pak navy will have max pressure put on them to purchase those items---same thing with the german U boats---.

On the political side---pakistan is in europe asking for trade---asking for concessions---well---when the last time they were asking for the same---we screwed up royally----we had contract set and done for the air bus---at the last moment---we switched over to boeing---we screwed ourselves so hard---the europeans got mad at and gave us all kinds of trouble---even sanctioning what kind of aircraft could fly into europe.

These are very interesting times for pak diplomacy.

Guys---look beyond the non-helicopter option----not all platforms will have helicopters---it is not practical and bottomline is, it is not done that way for now.

Does the british corvette make a good partner with the F 22---is the different weapons system an asset to pak navy and a headache to the IN---?

sir let me split it up into parts,
to start with, i agree that frigate with lesser displacement are as important as the 4000+ beasts. for this very reason PN opted for F222p and now plans to equip itself with milgem class corvettes. i guess if we manage to get along with these two procurements we will end up having some eight vesels in this category. both these ships are not that great when it comes to anti air warefare so i proposed a vessel with good capabilities in this department.
spcially if we look at PN requirments and role, 2000-3000 ton vessels fit perfectly into the picture, with good BM and CM with PA one feel not be be desperate for heavier vessels to house land attack missiles. but onother hand, yes, the second strike option cannot be neglected and submarine launched missiles and perhaps atleast three heavier vesels to do this job are required. i know about the financila constrains but i am also not talking about getting all these equipment in one go, as already mentioned PN have to carry on with F22p and USS old ships. then the next deal to follow must be of milgem class and leave the heavier ships for a few years. we are in dire need of immediate vessel procurement but with minimum resources PN will have to play its cards wisely.
opting for the british vessels will serve a blow on ,ilgem procurement and thus delay the procedings to move into next generation technology. the british vessles may be good but on paper they do not seem to be as good as modren, stealthy milgem!
next is the diplomacy, in current situation it is for me the biggest threat to our defence deals. we have seen our politicians making a mess out of military deal, recent rumors of french subs is a classic example so all we can say is may God help us!!
the point about helicopters is also corrct, if we want to operate our navy in small battle groups, that we surely do, then we may not need a chopper for each member of the group. moreover the emergence of state of the art UAV also solve this problem,

so if you ask about my views i would say to stick to F22p and OPH for next two years, in this time we wil get all four F22p and one OPH. thenngo for four milgem and get them by 2014-2015 and soon after that a heavier vessel to give better air protection and land attack abilities. in the mean while if we can get the proised OPH vesels they can act as stop gaps and later on a second line force to be used in international task force against piracy and other such low profile jobs!

regards!

 

[muse]

Readers will also not have missed the news of a recent meeting of the Saudi naval chief and the British Naval chief with their Pakistani counter part.

 

[TOPGUN]

Readers will also not have missed the news of a recent meeting of the Saudi naval chief and the British Naval chief with their Pakistani counter part.

And wat was this news about muse? i suly have missed it

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Arsalan,

Thanks for your post---I wish we had someone from the navy over here, who could share with us the order of battle---placement of ships---attach what class to which group---how to create small groups of ships to get the best results and what kind of tonnage and equipment would those ships be of---what is the importance of lesser tonnage corvettes like the british---and that of the heavier like the 054's..

There is no doubt about what milgem class have to offer---but what MUSE stated that there are forces to be that may want us to think otherwise---.

Pakistan desperately needs inroads into european markets---the major players---the british have 4 of those corvettes---about 1 billion dollars----german have 4 subs ready U 214---the greece non-delivery---close to 3 billions---france wants us to at least buy some Rafaels----at least 2-3 billion---and that only to open their markets for our goods---.

They will make pakistan pay very heavily for dumping the airbus contract at the last minute and going for the boeing---what would pak do that kind of a thing once they had already made their committment----bad bad decision. They assumed that the pia would fly directly to u s non-stop---without getting the approval from the foreign office and homeland security.

There is another question---if we learn how to build the F 22 in karachi---what are our future options---where do we go from there.

 

[Arsalan]

Hi Arsalan,

Thanks for your post---I wish we had someone from the navy over here, who could share with us the order of battle---placement of ships---attach what class to which group---how to create small groups of ships to get the best results and what kind of tonnage and equipment would those ships be of---what is the importance of lesser tonnage corvettes like the british---and that of the heavier like the 054's..

There is no doubt about what milgem class have to offer---but what MUSE stated that there are forces to be that may want us to think otherwise---.

Pakistan desperately needs inroads into european markets---the major players---the british have 4 of those corvettes---about 1 billion dollars----german have 4 subs ready U 214---the greece non-delivery---close to 3 billions---france wants us to at least buy some Rafaels----at least 2-3 billion---and that only to open their markets for our goods---.

They will make pakistan pay very heavily for dumping the airbus contract at the last minute and going for the boeing---what would pak do that kind of a thing once they had already made their committment----bad bad decision. They assumed that the pia would fly directly to u s non-stop---without getting the approval from the foreign office and homeland security.

There is another question---if we learn how to build the F 22 in karachi---what are our future options---where do we go from there.

exactly, i am also missing a PN profesional who can tell some technical and administrative points that you have mentioned. i hope some one come but i dont know of any on this forum!
however as far as my limited knowledge about the field, all based on research on net, is concerned i feel that no one can deny the importance of having a wider range of vessels in your fleet, both technologicaly and displacement wise.
the point behind saying that is that the corvetts being smaller are less vunerable to enemy attacks specially the modren ships that incorporate good degree of stealth and jamming suites. on the other hand this class lack the power punch like a dedicated atni-air warfare mechanism or land attack systems. it is not that corvets completely are deprived of air defence weaponry but still they dont have as much to offer as a dedicated platform.
for navy like ours, corvetts are of much more importance because of smaller coast line compared to our neighbour and also because the main role of PN in war time will be to deny a naval blockade and corvetts can satisfy this need. but with emergency of modren military equipment, one also feel the need of a few heavier truel blue water platform that can serve as a second strike ability against land territory and even to execute an offensive defence policy to avoid naval bloackade!
and yes sir, you are right on the issue of west laying a bait, i dont know much about the airbus issue but evne apart ffrom this they have several reasons to trap us. however the other side of pic is a broght one, if we positively take on procedings we can benefit a lot from these westren systems on offer and they can prove helpful on our journey on road of indegenious military hardware.
as far as TOT of f22p and other vessels is concerned, the idea seem to be just of getting technical know how, we have seen that no further Agostas were developed and same may well be the case with F22p. even after F22p, the milgem deal, if carried out will also be a TOT issue. i think even if we do not produce more of these ships, the technical knowkedge can help us when we need to develop ine for oueself. for navy, indegenious programmes mean a hell of money and currently PN is only intrested in procurements of weapon systems from market and no project of any indegenious vessel is going on.
well i do like this idea as we are moving good in indegenious productions for army and airforce, the navy can carry on with foreign vessel procurement and knowledge gaining and if someday we are forced to go for our own vessel we can start the project!

regards!

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

We need someone like Muradk but with naval credentials over here.

We all can discuss and go blue in the face, but until and unless we have a true professional providing us with the basic guideline of the order of battle---we will be in the dark. Once we know---what is needed and how the assets are placed and assigned, then we can take the discussin and reasoning to the next level----.

Don't we have similiar weight class corvettes in service but with lesser lethal weapons and an electeronic suite.

About the boeing scenario----pakistan had agreed to buy the air bus for long haul---everything was almost done---but boeing pulled pak in its directions---fake promises were made---like direct flights from pak to the u s non stop etc etc etc---PIA and pak govt didnot bother to get clearance from homeland security if that would be allowed---the homeland security refused to let any direct flights from pak get close to the u s boundary. The paks assumed alongwith the PIA that we are the frontline state---we will get automatic recognition---that proves it ultimately when they assume---the make an as s of u and me---.

The europeans were not happy with us---they ssaid they always tried their best to help us as much as they could---france would give us what not and so did britain---they put sanctions on PIA planes---they put restriction that our 747 will not fly to european destinations----they put trade restriction on us as well---pak really trule screwed up big time----they let go of old reliable europe in our real time of need and got stuck up with boeing---a losers preposition all the way.

And the funny thing is the boeing doesnot pay any bribes---against the u s law----air bus would have given them something---.

 

[lindsyebanks]

Due to many reasons, the most obvious being time, which I personally find as a limiter to take part in online forums, its going to be very difficult to try to find not just an individual with naval credentials, but also someone who can be objective.

The moderators for this forum may wish to initiate some dialogue with Mr Usman Ansari. He is a well respected writer and naval analyst for Warship World magazine.

Whilst I would not expect someone like Usman to be here on a regular basis trawling through all the posts on the forums - we (me, him or anyone else) simply don't have the time, I can offer a possible solution. The moderators or think tank leads can collate a series of questions, or better still perhaps conduct an online interview put to someone like Usman - provided he agrees to it of course and the end of that session could be posted online. I would strongly suggest that only the moderators or designated think tanks - i.e. a responsible and the forum subject matter expert (SME) undertake such activities to ensure that a level of continuity can be maintained going forward. Any questions which the rest of the membership would like to ask, should be sent to the moderator/think tank lead, who in turn can collate the questions into something comprehensible, whilst ensuring that unnecessary questions are vetted before hand.

The onus here would be on the moderators/think tank leads to initiate dialogue. I would suggest a face to face meeting as well, seeing as many of the relevant forum members are based in Pakistan as is Usman Ansari.

 

[Penguin]

i guess it is not because of some technological lapses,
the specs look good on paper. what may be more bothering will be the displacement as PN will look forward for a heavier class after the F22p to house land attack cruise missiles, secondly the price at the price mentioned thereare better options available.

Milgem is also 2,000 t displacement. I don't see that being a bother to PN.

 

[MastanKhan]

Milgem is also 2,000 t displacement. I don't see that being a bother to PN.

Hi,

If the milgem is 2000 tonnes---is its weapons system any better than the british corvette in question---how about the Ew!!!

If the weapons system is better, then by what ratio----approx.

 

[Arsalan]

Milgem is also 2,000 t displacement. I don't see that being a bother to PN.

yes the milgem is a 2000 t class but what i was saying was that after F22p and possibly four milgem PN will be looking for some heavier vessels! in this case the british option does not fit in the picture. the only option will be to drop milgem and as far as i am concerned it wont be a wise one. the milgems are state of the art stealrhier ships and will come along with TOT and perhaps an option for some modifications to further satisfy PN need, these thing wont come along with british ships mentioned in the topic..

regards!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

oh I see... So F-22P has become more of ego satisfaction because its china we are talking about now..
India is still our number one priority.... not piracy, smuggling, or the so called "self defence deterrence".. we buy weapons over many social problems in pakistan because we are in constant threat of being attacked.... every single penny we pay for defense procurements has to be spend very wisely! we cant put millions of hungry population's life on stake and say hey.... we cant always get the best bang for the buck....
A light class frigate is not a disadvantage.. F-22P being one and at the same time not equipped with adequate armaments to defeat superior IN surface fleet's anti-air weapons and it will be better if we dont even mention when 2 - 3 Barhmos or klub AShCM are fired upon our lovely F-22P.
A pit bull would be...... Steregushchy class corvette (2,000T) Gowind class corvette (2,000T) Milgem (2,000T) and are worth constructing to develop your infrastructure for future naval projects..

 

[Penguin]

Hi,

If the milgem is 2000 tonnes---is its weapons system any better than the british corvette in question---how about the Ew!!!

If the weapons system is better, then by what ratio----approx.

Full load displacement,
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 1,940 tonnes
Milgem 'Ada' class: 2,000 tonnes

Dimensions
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 95 x 12.8 x 3.6 meters
Milgem 'Ada' class: 99 x 14.4 x 3.75 meters

Propulsion
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: CODAD, 4 diesels on 2 shafts, total of 30.2 MW
Milgem 'Ada' class: CODAG, 1 gas turbine and 2 diesels on 2 shafts, total of 30 MW

Top speed
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 30 knots
Milgem 'Ada' class: 29+ knots

Economic a.k.a. cruise speed:
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class 12 knots
Milgem 'Ada' class: 15 knots

Range (at economic speed)
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 5000 nautical miles (9000 km)
Milgem 'Ada' class: 3,500 nautical miles (6,480 km)

Complement
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 79 (room for an additional 24)
Milgem 'Ada' class: 93 including aviation officers (room for an additional 11)

SSM
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 2x4 Exocet MM40 block II (high subsonic, INS+ARH guidance, 70km range [nb 180km for Block III], 165 kg warhead )
Milgem 'Ada' class: 2 x 4 Harpoon Block II (high subsonic, GPS+INS+ARH guidance, 140 km range, 221 kg warhead)

SAM
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 16-cell VLS (vertical launch system) for MBDA (BAE Systems) Seawolf (CLOS, 10km range, 14kg warhead, antimissile capable)
Milgem 'Ada' class: 1 21-round launcher for RAM (passive RF and/or IR guidance [fire-and-forget], 9km range, 11,3kg warhead, antimissile capable)

Main gun
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 1 Oto Melara 76mm super rapid naval gun (110 rpm to 16km)
Milgem 'Ada' class: 1 x 76 mm Oto Melara 76mm super rapid naval gun (110 rpm to 16km), with stealthier shield

Secundary guns
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 2 x 30mm MSI Defence DS 30B REMSIG guns (650 rpm to 10km)
Milgem 'Ada' class: 2 x 12.7mm Aselsan STAMP Stabilized Machine Gun Platform to (550 rpm to 2km)

ASW torpedoes
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 2 x triple 324mm torpedo tubes
Milgem 'Ada' class: 2 x Mk.32 triple 324 mm launchers (US Mk.46 torpedoes)

Command and weapons control system
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: Nautis II
Milgem 'Ada' class: GENESIS

Navigation Radar
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 1x Kelvin Hughes Type 1007
Milgem 'Ada' class: 1x navigation radar (tba)

Surface search radar
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 1x Thales Nederland Scout LPI (low probability of intercept) radar
Milgem 'Ada' class: 1x Thales Netherlands SCOUT Mk2 surface surveillance radar

Air/Volume search Main Surveillance radar
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 1x BAE Systems Insyte AWS-9 3D E and F-band radar
Milgem 'Ada' class: 1x Thales Netherlands SMART-S Mk2 E/F-band 3D medium to long range Volume Search Radar

SAM control
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 2x BAE Insyte 1802SW I/J-band radar trackers, which provide target traking for the Seawolf missile system (which is CLOS)
Milgem 'Ada' class: none (not needed for RAM)

Gun control:
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: 1x Radamec 2500 electro-optic weapons director, with eye-safe laser range-finder, TV and thermal imager.
Milgem 'Ada' class: 1x Thales Netherlands STING EO Mk2 sensor system (I and K band radar director with a complete set of electro-optic equipment: TV/IR/Laser) for 76mm, + additional 1 ELOP system (e.g. Thales Mirador, Rafael Toplite)

Electronic warfare suite
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: Thales Sensors Cutlass 242 ESM system, Scorpion radar jammer, 2 Wallop Defence Super Barricade decoy launch systems.
Milgem 'Ada' class: ESM and system decoy launch systems (tba), torpedo decoy system (similar to US Nixie towed decoy?)

Sonar(s):
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: hull mounted medium frequency Thales Underwater Systems TMS 4130C1.
Milgem 'Ada' class: hullmounted Aselsan TBT-01 sonar (a near copy of short range the US SQS-56 used on e.g. Perry class frigates)


Helicopter facilities
F2000 'Nakhoda Ragam' class: flight deck + some rearm/refuel capability for medium helicopter e.g. S-70B Seahawk
Milgem 'Ada' class: Hangar and platform for S-70-B2 Sea Hawk ASW helicopters and/or unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV), with the capability of storing armaments, 20 tons of JP-5 aircraft fuel, aerial refuelling (HIRF) systems and maintenance systems


Naval Institute Guide to Combat ... - Google Boeken

 

[Arsalan]

oh I see... So F-22P has become more of ego satisfaction because its china we are talking about now..
India is still our number one priority.... not piracy, smuggling, or the so called "self defence deterrence".. we buy weapons over many social problems in pakistan because we are in constant threat of being attacked.... every single penny we pay for defense procurements has to be spend very wisely! we cant put millions of hungry population's life on stake and say hey.... we cant always get the best bang for the buck....
A light class frigate is not a disadvantage.. F-22P being one and at the same time not equipped with adequate armaments to defeat superior IN surface fleet's anti-air weapons and it will be better if we dont even mention when 2 - 3 Barhmos or klub AShCM are fired upon our lovely F-22P.
A pit bull would be...... Steregushchy class corvette (2,000T) Gowind class corvette (2,000T) Milgem (2,000T) and are worth constructing to develop your infrastructure for future naval projects..

well your own post state two claims which contradict with one another. bro, F22p will be for what you call "so called deterance" while the OPH may never see themselvees in this role. well this is a debate that we have been involved in since months and as Sir Mastan say, we can get blue on hese discussion unless and until we have a credible suorce from within PN ranks to eductaed us about battle groups and there roles!
but yes if you say that there would have been better options then the F22p and you consider milgem as one of those, i totally agree with this point. however the problem might have been the time frame in which we would have got these vessels. now with F22p inn hands and OPh to support them PN can buy time to receive milgem in configrations they want it to be.
anyhow this is my view point and you may well disagree wiht it!

regards!

 

[bbbhhh]

hi.......................................
))