F-22 / F-35 5th Generation jets | News & Discussions.

[Esc8781]

Not another APA believer
http://f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-18533-highlight-apa.html
http://f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-18089-highlight-apa.html
Mostly engineers talking on this one.

 

[CYNOX]

F-35 is feared only Because of Aim-9X missile

 

[Esc8781]

F-35 is feared only Because of Aim-9X missile

And its radar, and its stealth capability, and be able to turn as good as a clean viper when fully loaded

 

[gambit]

I'd like to know as to why are the costs for F-35 inflating all the time and how come the US government isn't able to intervene and clamp down on the costs of development despite failures?

Every new project has failures and that's not abnormal. But with so much money spent on just JSF, I personally believe that LM is simply swindling the DOD and other participating nations with such high price tags for various new additions.

There has to be a more cost effective alternative.

This is all economics.

Take the 'non-sparking' hammer, for example...

$143.31 => 18lb 6% Antimonial Lead HD sledge hammer / industrial knurled pipe handle | Fastenal
$742.00 => AMPCO Dbl Face Sledge Hammer, Nonsparking, 18 lb - Sledges - 2ZB26|H-74FG - Grainger Industrial Supply

Double Face Sledge Hammer, Non-Sparking, Non-Magnetic, Corrosion Resistant, Head Weight 18 Lb, Overall Length 33 In, Fiberglass With Rubber Cushion Grip Handle, Head Length 8 1/4 In, Head Width 3 In, Head Material Aluminum Bronze Copper Alloy, Meets/Exceeds Federal, GSA, Military, ANSI, DIN, OSHA, DOE, NFPA, MSHA

See the price difference? How many of us Joe Schmoes have a need for an 18 lb 'non-sparking' sledgehammer in our garages? But ask any fuel man and he will tell you the need for such a specialized tool.

No doubt there are inefficiency and even corruption in these defense contracts, but the reality is that when you specify your demands in a request for proposal (RFP), the more detailed your demands, the more you exclude competitors, intentionally or else. And there is nothing more exclusive than the need for a tool for national defense, be it a small handheld non-sparking hammer for the petroleum-oil-lubrication (POL) specialist or a jet fighter for the pilot.

Request for proposal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A request for proposal (RFP) is issued at an early stage in a procurement process, where an invitation is presented for suppliers,...

The RFP may dictate to varying degrees the exact structure and format of the supplier's response.

My company offers a class called 'Patents for Engineers' and in most sessions, there is always a point during class where a discussion about corrupt people and practices in the private sector arises. Believe it or not, it is not competition that reduces corruption and incite efficiency, it is the monetary amount involved of the contract. The higher the money involved, the greater the scrutiny and even the government, with its reputation of being careless with taxpayers' money, is cautious, but inefficiency and corruption can be masked by the unique demands of the RFP and/or by the bureaucracy that is inevitable if and when manufacturing is spread out among the many layers of subcontractors/suppliers. When inefficiency and corruption are exposed, what else can we do? Who has the expertise readied on the sidelines to build us the F-35? No choice but to swallow the (additional) cost.

Those who criticize US for the 'military industrial complex' really have no clue on how these contracts works. When their countries purchase defense tools, indigenous or foreign, their countries directly or indirectly support the very same MIC corporations, indigenous or foreign, they pretentiously condemned. Worse if the defense tools they purchased are foreign. But what else can their countries do when their militaries have their own RFPs.

If a non-sparking hammer can cost 6 times the regular hammer, imagine how much more a meter -- an electrically active device -- that must be designed to produce no spark under any circumstances, armored or 'ruggedized' for diverse environments, and sufficienty robust so as not to lose any parts to become FOD items.

For example...

TestPath Electronic Test Equipment Accessories > Oscilloscope Probes, Digital Multimeters(DMMs), Test Measurement Equipment, Power Supplies

...when engineers are concerned about the possibility of signal loss and foreign object damage that could occur if a universal connector vibrates loose.

 

[Bratva]

since i'm amateur and layman. Can professionals tell me why USA is facing so many troubles in F-35 program when they have already built F22 raptor. Only thing challenging i thought was VTOL capability. Rest of all the capabilities should have been a piece of cake as most of the high tech and complex technology was already developed in F 22 designing and development phase and could be borrowed to F-35 program?

 

[Korean]

I'd like to know as to why are the costs for F-35 inflating all the time

Because F-35 design keeps changing due to excess weight, component cracking, and other issues. The cost of redesigns are passed on to consumers.

The current F-35 model is Mark II. Mark I F-35 was scrapped in 2006 after they realized that it was too heavy for STOVL operation.

and how come the US government isn't able to intervene and clamp down on the costs of development despite failures?

Normally, a troubled project like F-35 is simply cancelled. The trouble is, the F-35 was supposed to replace a dozen different type of jets and there is no replacement if it is canned, so it lives on.

There has to be a more cost effective alternative.

A cost effective alternate take 15 years to develop.

F-35 is feared only Because of Aim-9X missile

No one fears F-35.

since i'm amateur and layman. Can professionals tell me why USA is facing so many troubles in F-35 program when they have already built F22 raptor. Only thing challenging i thought was VTOL capability.

Bingo

Rest of all the capabilities should have been a piece of cake as most of the high tech and complex technology was already developed in F 22 designing and development phase and could be borrowed to F-35 program?

Most of F-22 stuff is classified and cannot be "burrowed".

 

[Bratva]

Because F-35 design keeps changing due to excess weight, component cracking, and other issues. The cost of redesigns are passed on to consumers.

The current F-35 model is Mark II. Mark I F-35 was scrapped in 2006 after they realized that it was too heavy for STOVL operation.


Normally, a troubled project like F-35 is simply cancelled. The trouble is, the F-35 was supposed to replace a dozen different type of jets and there is no replacement if it is canned, so it lives on.


A cost effective alternate take 15 years to develop.


No one fears F-35.


Bingo


Most of F-22 stuff is classified and cannot be "burrowed".

Both are built by Lockheed Martin.

 

[Korean]

Both are built by Lockheed Martin.

You do not understand that the F-22 was never intended for export, while the F-35 was designed to be exportable. This means the F-35 cannot contain any of F-22's classified stuff. The F-22 and F-35 designs belong to the US government, not Lockheed Martin, so the US government decides what could be used where.

This is the reason why the US went through the painstaking effort of developing a new "downgraded" engine with lesser material instead of using F-22's engine, to protect F-22's secrets.

 

[mehmeTcc]

You do not understand that the F-22 was never intended for export, while the F-35 was designed to be exportable. This means the F-35 cannot contain any of F-22's classified stuff. The F-22 and F-35 designs belong to the US government, not Lockheed Martin, so the US government decides what could be used where.

This is the reason why the US went through the painstaking effort of developing a new "downgraded" engine with lesser material instead of using F-22's engine, to protect F-22's secrets.

So, how can you explain F-35's superior avionics? And do you know what is the difference between hi and lo?

 

[Korean]

So, how can you explain F-35's superior avionics?

A later date system.

F-22 had 90s avionics.
F-35 has 00s avionics.
Boeing's Silent Eagle/Hornet series have 10s avionics and is considerably superior to F-35's.

 

[Banu Umayyah]

A later date system.

F-22 had 90s avionics.
F-35 has 00s avionics.
Boeing's Silent Eagle/Hornet series have 10s avionics and is considerably superior to F-35's.

What about f-15 SA? Do you know if they have the same avionics as Silent Eagle?

 

[Mosamania]

What about f-15 SA? Do you know if they have the same avionics as Silent Eagle?

The F-15SA is pretty much everything the Silent Eagle is save for the the Internal Weapons bays. If after purchase we decided to buy the transition to the F-15SE upgrade it will require minimum work.

The canted tails idea for the F-15SE was scrapped by boeing stressing that after tests it was showen that it doesn't affect the frontal aspect stealth by much commonly used during SEAD missions and Interception.

 

[Korean]

What about f-15 SA? Do you know if they have the same avionics as Silent Eagle?

F-15SA has same computer system, but may not have the same display. USAF pilots flying the F-15C with An/APG-63v3 complain that they need a large screen to make the most use out of this radar, so I presume the US tried to restrict the usefulness of the F-15SA's powerful radar by putting 7 inch radar screens in the cockpit, so that F-15SA pilots cannot see well.

 

[Mosamania]

F-15SA has same computer system, but may not have the same display. USAF pilots flying the F-15C with An/APG-63v3 complain that they need a large screen to make the most use out of this radar, so I presume the US tried to restrict the usefulness of the F-15SA's powerful radar by putting 7 inch radar screens in the cockpit, so that F-15SA pilots cannot see well.

Actually no. We are getting the display we asked for. And if want to upgrade the display we can do it through our own defense companies. Actually I read somewhere that the American pilots were complaining about the displays and were grunting at the fact that the export customers including Korea, Singapore, Israel and Saudi Arabia will be getting a better display system than them.

 

[Esc8781]

A later date system.

F-22 had 90s avionics.
F-35 has 00s avionics.
Boeing's Silent Eagle/Hornet series have 10s avionics and is considerably superior to F-35's.

Korean haven't you heard of upgrades?

Can't turn