F-16, Su-30MKI Face Off During Singapore-India Joint Military Exercise

[Mike_Brando]

Oh please beta! don't write these two words in same line!

Lol beta,go and ask your mommy to make you some complan,this is not the place for you to venture alone.No wonder your id name is "Gazwa-e-Hind"

Because those Sukhois are piloted by Russians and not Indians.

R e lungi chup kor,jibone kono din Su-30 MKI chokh e dekhechis je or baapare kotha bolchis.Tora holi giye bhikirir bachcha,toder jonno oi chinese J-7 khatarai jothesto.Jaa ekhon chup kore ekhan theke kete por,anhole na toke chete faak kore debo!!

Maybe you should rather train your own pilots instead of driving your planes through TATA trucks.

Lungi,beshi korle na tor lungi tule emon kelan kelabo je tor bhikiri babao toke bachate parbe na!!Ja na ekhan theke,ekhon amar kache khuchro paisa nei,pore ashbi bhikke korte!!

We would have done fine without your "help". It was just a matter of when Pakistan decided to leave.


Yes, but this time for Moha Bangladesh or Moha Banglaistan

Nana,its time to make Bangaldesh into Moha Kangaldesh inhabited by all sorts of lungidhari beggars like you

 

[HariPrasad]

It was 13-0 against Euro fighter and guise XX;0 against F 16?

 

[Stannis Baratheon]

R e lungi chup kor,jibone kono din Su-30 MKI chokh e dekhechis je or baapare kotha bolchis.Tora holi giye bhikirir bachcha,toder jonno oi chinese J-7 khatarai jothesto.Jaa ekhon chup kore ekhan theke kete por,anhole na toke chete faak kore debo!!


Lungi,beshi korle na tor lungi tule emon kelan kelabo je tor bhikiri babao toke bachate parbe na!!Ja na ekhan theke,ekhon amar kache khuchro paisa nei,pore ashbi bhikke korte!!


Nana,its time to make Bangaldesh into Moha Kangaldesh inhabited by all sorts of lungidhari beggars like you

Does your father beat you with a belt and being unable to do anything to him, you come here and cry it out. Maybe this is a form of you crying out.

BTW, toder deshe praay 200 million manush na kheie din katai, tora nam change kor Bikharistan. Eita Bangladesh er population er chei beshi, lozza shorom tor thaka uchit. Su-30 tader ke khawa be na, chaal ar daal khaobe. Tora dhooti porre porre toder Su-30 niye jotoi lafase na keno, tobuo toder deshe modhe insurgency ache.

Eikhene boro mokh na kore, tor abbar kache jeye mafh cha, tohole toke tor abba aar marbe na.

BTW, toder Air Force er against kono defence system lagbe na, just toder pilots.

 

[A2Z]

You have failed to even see that this "neutral" and thus creidble source (according to you) has pointed out the Su-30MKI is superior to the F-15s and F-16s and only just below the F-22. He points out many of the issues the MKI pilots faced were self-inflicted- not data-linking with freindly a/c for full situational awarness (would not be the case in S.Asian skies), relatively inexperienced flight crews on the type (this was some 7 years ago, the IAF is now the authority on the Su-30MK series and poor maintainability- the IAF is working to get the MKI up to 75% availability with most (if not all) aspects of the MKI being localised.

If you don't consider an US pilot who participated in Red Flag against Su-30 to be creditable then I don't know who you will consider authentic. However what you said is exactly what I picked up from it. The person clearly said MKI had the edge in technology but the the experience is what gave USAF the required edge. I am pretty much sure that it was USAF that was able to overcome MKI with their F-16/F-15 but Saudi F-15 would have struggled against MKI (the main reason being training and experience). However the person even appreciated the fact that IAF personnel though inexperienced but were learning. On the other hand even you agreed that serviceability is drawback that MKI has (especially the engine).

However data-linking and other problems related to it that IAF faced were something that could have been and should be avoided, because when you are exercising with USAF that's the ultimate test? Moreover wars today are no more fought as 1 vs 1 rather a collation takes on another collation. If we take the most likely scenario, Japan, South Korea, Philippines and Taiwan decide to act against China then they would ask India to join in. I think India would but there IAF would again face a similar situation all the Japanese F-15/16 and F-2 would be in link with Korean F-15/16 and Taiwan's F-16s and Mirage 2000s and India would just have their Mirages because Su-30 and Mig-29 again have no data-links with western fighters and would be fighting as lone warrior.

In the end no hard feelings against Su-30 its a good plane becoming deadlier as pilots are getting experienced but its not as invincible as some keyboard warriors think it is. Cheers

 

[zebra7]

Does your father beat you with a belt and being unable to do anything to him, you come here and cry it out. Maybe this is a form of you crying out.

BTW, toder deshe praay 200 million manush na kheie din katai, tora nam change kor Bikharistan. Eita Bangladesh er population er chei beshi, lozza shorom tor thaka uchit. Su-30 tader ke khawa be na, chaal ar daal khaobe. Tora dhooti porre porre toder Su-30 niye jotoi lafase na keno, tobuo toder deshe modhe insurgency ache.

Eikhene boro mokh na kore, tor abbar kache jeye mafh cha, tohole toke tor abba aar marbe na.

BTW, toder Air Force er against kono defence system lagbe na, just toder pilots.

Re BABA, Tumar Baadi Khotai Aachi, Hamar Ektho Kaam Kori deboo, Tumi Ekla Chaloo Lungi.

If you don't consider an US pilot who participated in Red Flag against Su-30 to be creditable then I don't know who you will consider authentic. However what you said is exactly what I picked up from it. The person clearly said MKI had the edge in technology but the the experience is what gave USAF the required edge. I am pretty much sure that it was USAF that was able to overcome MKI with their F-16/F-15 but Saudi F-15 would have struggled against MKI (the main reason being training and experience). However the person even appreciated the fact that IAF personnel though inexperienced but were learning. On the other hand even you agreed that serviceability is drawback that MKI has (especially the engine).

However data-linking and other problems related to it that IAF faced were something that could have been and should be avoided, because when you are exercising with USAF that's the ultimate test? Moreover wars today are no more fought as 1 vs 1 rather a collation takes on another collation. If we take the most likely scenario, Japan, South Korea, Philippines and Taiwan decide to act against China then they would ask India to join in. I think India would but there IAF would again face a similar situation all the Japanese F-15/16 and F-2 would be in link with Korean F-15/16 and Taiwan's F-16s and Mirage 2000s and India would just have their Mirages because Su-30 and Mig-29 again have no data-links with western fighters and would be fighting as lone warrior.

In the end no hard feelings against Su-30 its a good plane becoming deadlier as pilots are getting experienced but its not as invincible as some keyboard warriors think it is. Cheers

Listen to a pod-cast audio regarding the same presentation (even MORE interesting) * note: this pod-cast with the editor "Flight" appears to have been pulled. The thrust of the interview was that Nellis instructors in the F-15 were able to catch the F-22A in a turn:
PodOmatic | Best Free Podcasts

This means that according to the Colonels own hand positions - a properly flown Su-30 can (also) catch an F-22 in a turn. So what - actually - is the USAF trying to say?...
It says nothing.

The US Colonels remarks caused an international flap in India. Did some in the USAF have something to prove?

Indian Su-30MKi landing at Nellis AFB, Nev. in 2008

Problem is Colonel Fornof comments produced more questions than answers:

a.) Indian MiG-21IBis (I-Bis) "Bison" are equipped with Russian-made Kopyo radars, not Israeli “F-16” radars.

b.) Two conflicting accounts on what exactly happened at Mountain Home AFB both agree Fornof is in error. The first is 1-v-1 DACT at Mountain Home AFBT never occurred. The second was the kill ratio at Mountain Home was so overwhelmingly in favor of the IAF flown Russian-built fighter that the Sukhoi was considered effectively unbeatable. There is almost zero chance the Americans will entertain allowing this information out.
c.) FOD concerns are not unusual for any air force operating halfway around the world. The Flanker has simply immense loiter and combat persistence ability – take-off (fighter scramble) intervals are not (as) critical for Flanker - as for shorter range aircraft.

d.) MKi use Lyulka AL-31 turbofans, not Tumansky powerplants as USAF officer stated.
e) F-15C and other USAF fighters had the same number of blue-blue 'fratricide' as the IAF and in addition the American were all networked with each other.

f) MKi did not use thrust vector mode during the Nellis AFB exercises and only sparingly at Mountain Home.

g) Watching video of Su-30 maneuvering - anyone can see the Americans have simply been outclassed by a significant margin.

[Below] Indian Air Force flying the MiG-21 'Bison' gave USAF F-15 drivers - a very bad day. "Low-tech" aircraft fitted with the right equipment, and properly trained crews - should never be underestimated. It appears the IAF knows exactly what they are doing.

Indian Air Force MiG-21IBis (I-Bis). The paradigm(s) after 1982 Bekaa Valley and 1991 Gulf War - appear to have been misguided.

Indian MiG-21-IBis with R-77 "Adder" missile round. The R-77 is the equivalent to the American AIM-120.

It is important to remember some historical context here. Everyone (everyone) wanted ACM training from the Indians after they soundly defeated Pakistani F-104s with MiG-21s during the Indo-Pakistani war in 1971. Indian MiG-21s downed F-104s with no MiG losses to Starfighters. So under actual combat conditions the Indians do have a history of air-combat proficiency. Plus lets be honest – the Flanker is probably the best ACM fighter in the world - in the last 70 years.

So what other conclusions if any, can be drawn?

• The paradigms established/embraced after Bekaa Valley ‘Turkey Shoot’ in 1982 and the results of the 1991 Gulf War appear to have been misguided by 2004 - due to Indian MiG-21IBis (I-Bis) versus the F-15 Eagle.
• There is no substitute for flight hours and training. Proper training allows aircrews (of any air force) to extract the maximum performance out of their aircraft.
• A similar post-stall counter-tactic was used by Nellis (F-15) instructors against less-experienced aircrews in both F-22 and Su-30. So by definition: a properly flown Su-30 also can catch F-22 in a turn.
• Remarking on F-22 needing ‘more missiles’ - is consistent with F-22 having only two IR missile rounds, historical air-to-air missiles hit probabilities and Raptors lack of helmet sighting. Su-30 brings helmet-sighting, nearly twice the number of missile rounds, IRST, and a huge fuel reserves - at much (much) lower costs (and so in larger numbers?)- to the fight.
• His remarks on the inability of USAF instructor aircraft to employ their AIM-120 AMRAAM round - is interesting. Whether it was jamming, snooping, heads-up defensive flying, or other tactical issues, his comments are (duly) noted.
• Remarks on the Indian MiG-21 are revealing. During the Bekaa Valley (Lebanon) air battles of June 1982, Israeli F-15 and F-16 radars had no trouble seeing (and downing scores of) Mig-21s. So DRFM-class jammers even on a MiG-21 - may have pushed BVR off the table - for any radio-spectrum AIM-120 equipped fighter - even Raptor?
• Colonel Fornof was referring to this video (F-22 and Su-30 side-by-side)

Wednesday, November 19, 2008
LiveFist Column: Vishnu Som first-hand on what really happened at Red Flag 08

Vishnu Som, Associate Editor and Senior Anchor at NDTV, was the only journalist from India at Red Flag 08, and in that sense, best placed to talk about what happened there. He sent us a very comprehensive comment to the last post on the leaked video controversy. Vishnu has allowed me to post his excellent comment here as a column. Thanks Vishnu!For all of you who are out there in the internet world and who have an interest in the performance of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag 2008 .. I have a few remarks. As the only Indian journalist who spent a lengthy period of time at Nellis after being granted permission by both the Indian Air Force and the US Air Force, I was granted access to impeccable sources in both forces.

Whats more, I was able to independently corroborate this information with reliable, alternative sources. Several of the points I present here in the form of this post on the Bharat Rakshak forum will be compiled into an article which I will post on my company website ndtv.com. For those of you not familiar with the Indian media ... New Delhi Television (NDTV) is India's largest 24 hour news network and our website is one of the most viewed among news websites in the country. For the moment, I have decided not to do a television news report on this since I believe the contents of this post are too technical for a larger audience.

For starters ... and this cannot be stressed enough ... the Red Flag exercises were a brilliant learning experience for all the participants, not least of all the Indian Air Force which, over a period of time, has earned the reputation of being one of the world's finest operational air forces.

This was a reputation which was reinforced at Red Flag 2008, the world's most advanced air combat exercises where the Indian Air Force fielded a number of state of the art Sukhoi 30 MKI jets in addition to IL-76 transports and IL-78 mid air refuellers.

For other participants at the Red Flag exercises ... namely the South Korean Air Force, French and US Air Force ... the opportunity to train with a platform such as the Sukhoi 30 MKI was an opportunity which just couldn't be missed. This has a lot to do not just with the jet but also with the air force operating the fighter, a force which has made a mark as an innovative operator of fast jets.The US Air Force … the host of these exercises … was singularly gracious in its appreciation for the Indian Air Force contingent which came into Red Flag having trained extensively for the exercises not only back home but also at the Mountain Home Air Force base in the US.

Contrary to unsolicited remarks by certain serving US personnel not directly linked to day to day operations at the exercises … the Indian Air Force and its Su-30s more than made a mark during their stint in the United States.For starters … not a single Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter was `shot down’ in close air combat missions at the Mountain Home air base. In fact, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down in the 10 odd one on one sorties which were planned for the first two days of the exercises at Mountain Home. These one on one engagements featured USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16 in close air engagements against the Su-30 MKI. The majority of the kills claimed in these engagements were granted to the Indian Air Force with the remainder of these being no-results. Indian Air Force Sukhois did use their famed thrust vectoring in these one on one engagements. Contrary to what may have been reported elsewhere … the Su-30 has a rate of turn of more than 35 degrees when operating in the thrust vector mode. In certain circumstances, this goes up substantially.

By the time the exercises at Mountain Home had matured … the Indian Air Force had graduated to large formation exercises which featured dozens of jets in the sky. In one of these exercises … the blue forces, of which the Indian Air Force was a part … shot down more than 21 of the enemy jets. Most of these `kills’ have been credited to the Indian Air Force.

By the time the Indian Air Force was ready for Red Flag, the contingent had successfully worked up using the crawl, walk, run principle. At Red Flag though, they found themselves at a substantial disadvantage vis a vis the other participants since they were not networked with AWACS and other platforms in the same manner in which USAF or other participating jets were. In fact, Indian Air Force Sukhois were not even linked to one another using their Russian built data links since American authorities had asked for specifics of the system before it was cleared to operate in US airspace. The IAF, quite naturally, felt that this would compromise a classified system onboard and decided to go on with the missions without the use of data links between the Sukhois.Neither was the Indian Air Force allowed to use chaff or flares, essential decoys to escape incoming missiles which had been fired by enemy jets. This was because the US FAA had visibility and pollution related concerns in the event that these were used in what is dense, busy air space in the Las Vegas region.

The Red Flag exercises themselves were based on large force engagements and did not see the Indian Air Force deploy thrust vectoring at all on any of the Sukhoi 30 jets not that this was required since the engagements were at long ranges.Though it is true that there were 4-5 incidents of fratricides involving the Indian Air Force at Red Flag … it is important to point out the following:In the debriefs that followed the exercises … responsibility for the fratricides were always put on the fighter controllers not the pilots. Its also important to point that unlike in Mountain Home, none of the Indian Air Force’s own fighter controllers were allowed to participate since there was classified equipment at Nellis used for monitoring the exercises. The lack of adequate controlling and the fact that Nellis fighter controllers often had problems understanding Indian accents (they had problems understanding French accents as well) resulted in a lack of adequate controlling in situations. Whats more … given the fact that the availability of AWACS was often low … the bulk of fratricides took place on days when the AWACS jet was not deployed. Whats important to remember though is that US participants in these exercises had a similar number of fratricides despite being fully linked in with data links and the latest IFF systems.

So was the Indian Air Force invincible at Red Flag. In a word … no. So yes, there were certainly days in which several Sukhoi jets were shot down. And there were others when they shot down many opposing jets. Ultimately though … the success of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag lay in the fact that they could meet their mission objectives as well, if not better, than any other participant. Despite the hot weather conditions, the IAF had a 95 per cent mission launch ratio, far better than some of the participants. And no one went into the exercises thinking the score line would be a perfect one in favour of the IAF. In fact … the IAF went into these exercises with an open mind and with full admiration of the world beating range at Nellis with an unmatched system of calibrating engagement results.Perhaps the most encouraging part of these exercises comes from the fact that the Indian Air Force’s young pilots … learnt from their mistakes, analysed, appreciated and came back strong. Mistakes were not repeated. In fact … the missions where the IAF did not fare well turned out to be immense learning experiences. At the end of the exercises … its more than clear that the IAF’s Su-30s were more than a match for the variants of the jets participating at the Red Flag exercises. Considering the fact that the central sensor of the Sukhoi, its radar … held up just fine in training mode …despite the barrage of electronic jamming augurs well for the Indian Air Force.

As for its young pilots … these are skills and experiences that they will take back to their squadrons … experiences which will be passed on to a whole new set of pilots who will come into the next set of exercises that much wiser.

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

Lol beta,go and ask your mommy to make you some complan,this is not the place for you to venture alone.No wonder your id name is "Gazwa-e-Hind"

admins, check this language! a drunk indian man is making mess at PDF!

 

[Stephen Cohen]

admins, check this language! a drunk indian man is making mess at PDF!

Hi where do you Live in INDIA

 

[Mike_Brando]

admins, check this language! a drunk indian man is making mess at PDF!

Aya re aaya Ghazwa aaya sath mein lekar dhero papaya

 

[Stannis Baratheon]

Re BABA, Tumar Baadi Khotai Aachi, Hamar Ektho Kaam Kori deboo, Tumi Ekla Chaloo Lungi.

Acha kaaj kore dibo but only if you promise to not r@*e your women. I am willing to embarrass myself for a greater cause. BTW, nijer dhooti nijer porishkar korra uchit, tor ghuu maara dhooti keu porishkar korbe naa.