F-16 obsession ....... this is why

[Fledgingwings]

with AWACS and AEWCs making way into S.Asia in big numbers, the number of BVR engagements will grow much more. WVR combats maybe reduced to few and far between. but if the fighters are taken out before they can engage bogeys WVR, then what use being very good at it?

this is still kudos to the pilots for beating more capable systems, but BVR is the logical evolution at this point in my opinion.

I agree and it makes sense since BVR has changed the global scenario of A2A combat.but lets also not forget that even with all the toys loaded into the aircraft no matter how advance,its always the Brain inside the cockpit who makes these flying beasts deadly in their nature.The plane is the punch but the its effectiveness and potency is determined by the compitence and genuis of the Pilot.

 

[war&peace]

Let's be honest - if we had the choice between F16s and Typhoons, what would the PAF take?

Eurofighter is more capable fighter and there is no denying about it. PAF may even acquire a few but this incident highlights the importance of the "man in the loop". PAF pilots have great skills and the world acknowledges it but at the same time we should focus more on the current and future battle-field that will employ BVRs, ECMs and long range SOWs..

with AWACS and AEWCs making way into S.Asia in big numbers, the number of BVR engagements will grow much more. WVR combats maybe reduced to few and far between. but if the fighters are taken out before they can engage bogeys WVR, then what use being very good at it?

this is still kudos to the pilots for beating more capable systems, but BVR is the logical evolution at this point in my opinion.

Now add the probability of kill for BVR missles and also try to figure out how many BVR missiles an A/C can carry and you will realise that dogfight is not leaving the sky any time soon though the BVR engagements will increase but WVR will still be very much in fashion for decades to come.

 

[Windjammer]

What other aircraft could match the F-16 for safety and reliability.
In period leading up to 2005, PAF F-16s achieved the milestone of 100 000 accident free flight hours.
And despite being involved in operations in WOT and participating in several international and overseas exercises, in the last 23 years, PAF has lost only one F-16....a truly remarkable feat.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article1468.html

https://www.facebook.com/

 

[The Accountant]

BVR is the way forward but we must also ensure that pilots are expert is close combat. its is possible for older highly agile aircraft to take on and even beat modern aircraft. but these are just exercises and not real war

Sir i am not challenging experrise of our pilots ... sure they are one of the best thats why i need one of the best machines for them ... i dont want to see them being handicapped due to machines ...

I dont pay taxes for useless personnal foreign visits of NS or his treatment in London ... i pay my taxes to contribute in progress of my country and to ensure our independence and thats why i want it to be used in the best possible way ...

So when our jawans are putting their life at risk then we should give them right tools to come over the top ... for that if we could sacrifice BMW of army chief or PM and President then we should ...

 

[Arsalan]

Any particular reason for success?

A: NATO pilots are not that proficient in close-in air-to-air combat. They are trained for BVR [Beyond Visual Range]
And this is they way they will be fighting there wars in future, the whole world will be!!

Kudos to our pilots who have made the nation proud by winning these games but to be honest, the future will see more and more BVR engagements and while we celebrate this dog fight win we should gear up for the BVR combat. Acting childish wont help us in long run.

 

[VCheng]

Remember how Pakistanis were once masters of stick work in field hockey playing on grass? The world moved on to Astro Turf and passing shots.

 

[Arsalan]

Remember how Pakistanis were once masters of stick work in field hockey playing on grass? The world moved on to Astro Turf and passing shots.

A perfect example.
So while we still have every reason to cherish and celebrate that glorious past (or our command against EFT in dog fights) we need to prepare the new challenges of modern game to stay relevant (the BVR combat)

 

[Trango Towers]

Sir i am not challenging experrise of our pilots ... sure they are one of the best thats why i need one of the best machines for them ... i dont want to see them being handicapped due to machines ...

I dont pay taxes for useless personnal foreign visits of NS or his treatment in London ... i pay my taxes to contribute in progress of my country and to ensure our independence and thats why i want it to be used in the best possible way ...

So when our jawans are putting their life at risk then we should give them right tools to come over the top ... for that if we could sacrifice BMW of army chief or PM and President then we should ...

I wasn't arguing.....infact agreeing with you and what you have written above is perfectly true

 

[gambit]

OODA Loop...The common theme between BVR and WVR engagements.

Observation. Orientation. Decision. Action.

In a WVR engagement, the OODA loop is executed more frequently with a higher than average potential for breaking the loop. For example, you are after a target but must disengage before 'Decision' to fire because your RWR alerted you to a missile on your six. Breaking the loop is never a good thing. Yes, you escaped death but for the loop, you lost your target and probably will never put him under the loop again.

In a BVR engagement, the loop is executed once. At that point, the loop is between the missile and the target. This is where missile sophistication comes in and beyond the scope of this discussion, and the technical details are top secret anyway.

The OODA loop is why off-boresight capability is so desirable. The boresight here is the aircraft's boresight, which translate to sensor (radar or infrared) boresight. But even so, the 'Orientation' component make 'Decision' and 'Action' possible, which means the greater the agility of the fighter, the easier it will be for the missile to make its 'Orientation' to the target. So just because you are able to off-boresight your target, that does not mean you and the missile are not a team.

 

[CriticalThought]

For the cluebies on this thread, calling WVR dead and what nots, some words from a real professional:

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/how-to-win-in-a-dogfight-stories-from-a-pilot-who-flew-1682723379

F-16C/D: The Viper is, in my opinion, what a fighter should be. It is small, nimble, accelerates like a bullet and is a pure joy to fly. Instead of loading it down with bombs, the radar should have been improved to give it Eagle-like capabilities and the jet should have taken more of an air-to-air role. While I said that the F-15 is like a Mercedes, The F-16 is like a Formula One race car. The cockpit is tight and it gives you more of the sensation that you're actually wearing the jet than actually sitting in it. The side-stick controller takes about as much time to get used to as it takes to read this sentence.

I've flown all the C/D versions – Blocks 25, 30, 32, 40, 42, 50, 52. The Pratt-powered Blocks 25, 32 and 42 are good performers, but not great. The GE-powered Blocks 30, 40 and 50, plus the Pratt-powered Block 52 are absolute beasts. The GE-powered fleet is flown by the active-duty F-16 squadrons while Air National Guard and Reserve squadrons operate a mixed bag of GE-powered and Pratt-powered Vipers. I've never flown a jet that will out accelerate the GE-powered F-16. At low altitude, GE Vipers will step out to its airspeed of 810 knots indicated airspeed like nobody's business. The limit is based on the polycarbonate canopy and not the engine. At higher speeds the canopy starts to get warm due to air friction. At some point the canopy will start to deform if the jet gets much faster. At high altitude, I've had the jet out to Mach 2.05. This limit is due to the fixed air inlet and opposed the F-15's variable geometry inlet.

In his book, Sierra Hotel: Flying Air Force Fighters in the Decade After Vietnam, Col C.R. Anderegg, USAF (ret), former F-15 pilot and F-4 Fighter Weapons School graduate, wrote this about the F-16: "The pure joy of the F-16, though, was in the furball (complex dogfight with many aircraft), where the aircraft had the edge over the F-15 and a significant edge over everything else. With the F-16's incredible agility and power, the pilot could get close and stay close. He was less a viper than a python gradually squeezing the fight closer while beating down his victim's energy and resistance until the time came for a mortal blow. Chaff might spoof a radar missile or flares might decoy a heat-seeker, but as one pilot said, 'The gun is stupid. You can't jam it and you can't fool it.' The F-16 was a superb gunfighter, and in the furball it was the top cat."

With AESA radars, more effective BVR missiles, an increasingly networked battlespace, HOBS missiles and high-end sensor fusion now a reality, is the dogfight finally a relic of the past?

This has been an assumption by so-called experts since the 1950s. Unfortunately, these experts have never flown fighters and we've proven many times since that aircraft will get into the visual arena even with sophisticated BVR sensors and weapons. We build better BVR weapons and our adversaries build better radar jammers. And it goes around and around and around. Networks can be jammed and/or compromised. So yes, dogfighting is not dead.

How about manned fighters being replaced by drones? At the end of the movie "Patton" a reporter asked the general this: "General, we're told of wonder weapons the Germans were working on: Long-range rockets, push-button bombing, weapons that don't need soldiers. What's your take on that?" To which Patton replied, "Wonder weapons? My God, I don't see the wonder in them. Killing without heroics. Nothing is glorified, nothing is reaffirmed. No heroes, no cowards, no troops. No generals. Only those that are left alive and those that are left... dead." Did Patton ever actually say this? I don't know, but I believe the sentiment (except for the "… no generals" part).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I'm probably wrong, but was the technology gap between the F-16 MLU and Typhoon Tranche 1/Tranche 2 even that significant? The CAPTOR-E AESA radar or Striker II HMD/S are only being introduced now, back then, the F-16 MLU and T1/T2 were using comparable systems (especially in EW/ECM), though the CAPTOR probably had more range. Otherwise, if the PAF's JHMCS can simulate the AIM-9X or IRIS-T HOBS AAM, then it should be well-placed for WVR.

 

[CriticalThought]

I'm probably wrong, but was the technology gap between the F-16 MLU and Typhoon Tranche 1/Tranche 2 even that significant? The CAPTOR-E AESA radar or Striker II HMD/S are only being introduced now, back then, the F-16 MLU and T1/T2 were using comparable systems (especially in EW/ECM), though the CAPTOR probably had more range. Otherwise, if the PAF's JHMCS can simulate the AIM-9X or IRIS-T HOBS AAM, then it should be well-placed for WVR.

Sir, this article is an eye opener for anyone who thinks EFT is some alien technology:

http://www.ausairpower.net/Analysis-Typhoon.html

 

[GURU DUTT]

sorry to inturrupt bhailog

but deal is already underway

Indian Airforce is in Final Stages to OK the DEAL to Purchase 10-12 full squads (18 per squad) of ex USAF F16 Blk 40/42 and upgrade-MLU them with next gen landing gear+ Turbogfan engine and new gen 4 Channel digital FBW and new gen avionics controlled by a Central DATABUS and all the latest techs as that on F35 and new gen GaN based radar (with FLIRST)and EW+ECM+ Internal Jammer suites and next gen JHMCS & HUD and next gen weapons package (first two squads will be upgraded in LM plant in USA to train indian technicians wich will then be tranferrd to india under complete TOT for the rest of the deal ) the cost for overall lifecycle per plane will be around 40% less than rafale

 

[CriticalThought]

I'm probably wrong, but was the technology gap between the F-16 MLU and Typhoon Tranche 1/Tranche 2 even that significant? The CAPTOR-E AESA radar or Striker II HMD/S are only being introduced now, back then, the F-16 MLU and T1/T2 were using comparable systems (especially in EW/ECM), though the CAPTOR probably had more range. Otherwise, if the PAF's JHMCS can simulate the AIM-9X or IRIS-T HOBS AAM, then it should be well-placed for WVR.

Btw, I'm missing you here:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/thoughts-on-advancing-pakistans-aviation-industry.499933/

 

[ebrahym]

in current scenario pilot is just manager of different sub systems of aircraft and more job is to be done by sub systems ...

that is the thing in AWACS my friend ....... even AWACS and RADARS and ground defence forces use tactics ........... e.g downing of night hawk in serbia was not an accomplishment of RADAR but of commander using it ..... technology does not guarantee kill ....... BVR missiles can be out maneuvered and even be targeted by infrared homing dogfighting missiles are by canons although there has not be an example yet and i doubt anyone is trying so but in theory it is possible ............................

in the end tech matters but the tactics matter most ...
as for aerial scenario
we never hit a stop gap even during 90s we maintained operational capability by Project ROSE
we dont need overly expensive techs which we can neither appropriately operate nor can maintain
what we need is just the kick nothing more and nothing less and we do have it