F-104 Alas the Badmash.

[Wingman]

The IAF aircraft Shot down HAkim Ullah...F-104A 56-874 night intruder

I think you are getting mixed with the pilots here.
In 1971 Hakim Ullah was a Mirage leader and the night intruder was shot down by Jamal A Khan, who later became ACM.[/QUOTE]

Yes the pilot was Jamal A Khan, thanks for the correction..Hakim Ullah sb flew Mirage...

 

[Wingman]

Background


1965 war

By the time of the 1965 war with India, such was the fearsome reputation of the F-104 that during an early encounter between a pair of PAF Starfighters with IAF Folland Gnats, one of these dimunitive Indian fighters immediately surrendered, lowering its wheels and landing at the nearest Pakistani airfield without a shot being fired. On September 6, a PAF F-104A flying at 600 knots shot down an IAF Mystere IVA with a Sidewinder missile, and next day another IAF Mystere was shot down by the Vulcan cannon of another F-104. However, the F-104 pilot making the kill make the mistake of slowing down to dogfight with another IAF Mystere, which out-turned him and scored cannon hits on his F-104, forcing him to eject.

The Pilot was FLT LT Amjad, he was outnumbered by many IAF

The F-104A was able to make at least one successful non-visual interception of a high-flying IAF Canberra, which took place on September 21.

The Pilot was Jamal A Khan, who later became CAS in 1985

The first encounter in history between Mach 2 fighters took place on September 11, 1965. A single PAF F-104A encountered four IAF MiG-21s from Halwara. The F-104 managed to escape by exiting the combat at tree-top height and Mach 1.1, which the MiG-21s were unable to match. No blood was drawn during this encounter.

1971 war

War between Pakistan and India broke out again on December 7, 1971. By this time the Indian MiG force was formidable, with eight squadrons operationally ready. During the 1971 war with India, No 9 Squadron of the Royal Jordanian Air Force with about 10 F-104As was transferred to Pakistan to help out. It is not certain if the Jordanian F-104As were actually used in combat and if they were, whether they were flown by Pakistani or Jordanian pilots.

The PAF has admitted that two PAF Starfighters were lost in combat with IAF MiG-21s during the 1971 war, plus another one lost to ground fire.

One F104 piloted by W/C Middlecoat, missing in action no body recovered, he was heard to be ejecting over arabian sea

These losses would have left the PAF with only four of its original F-104As, although these may have supplemented by retention of some of the RJAF F-104As after the end of the war. No. 9 Squadron of the PAF continued to operate these F-104As until re-equipping with Mirage 5PAs in 1975. F-104A 56-0798 still sits on display at Sargodha. This was an ex-RoCAF machine.

F-104A/B in Combat

According to A/C Imtiaz A Bhatti he heard on his radio a Sikh Pilot saying... " phaj oyeee, 104 ee" (RUN ITS 104)

 

[sonicboom]

According to A/C Imtiaz A Bhatti he heard on his radio a Sikh Pilot saying... " phaj oyeee, 104 ee" (RUN ITS 104)

Thank you. Just to add more to what you added to my post in your post# 62:


1965 war

F/L Amjad Hussain (F-104 tail# 56-877) first S/D S/L AB Devayya (Mystere) but before crashing S/L AB Devayya also S/D F/L Amjad Husain on Sep. 7. F/L AB Devayya crashed and died as he failed to eject and was later awarded the highest award of India for bravery.

On September 21, Flying Officer Jamal A. Khan got to use the Starfighter in the manner for which it had originally been designed, scoring a solid Sidewinder hit on a Canberra at 33,000 feet over Fazilka. The Indian navigator was killed, but the pilot, Flight Lt. M.M. Lowe, bailed out and was taken prisoner.


1971 war

W/C ML Middlecoat (F-104 tail# 56-773) was S/D by F/L BB Soni (Mig-21) near Kutch while attacking Jamnagar air base on Dec 12.

The other F-104 pilot was Samad Changezi who was S/D by F/L Aruna K Data (Mig-21) near Naya Chor area on Dec. 17 and died in the crash.

S/L Amjad Hussain (F-104 tail# 56-804) was S/D by AA over Amritsar while attacking a radar installaion. He is the only pilot who was S/D in both 65 and 71 wars.

Where is some of the retired F-104?

Tail# 56-874 Single seat On display at Sargodah AFB
Tail# 56-875 Single seat On display at PAF Academy Risalpur
Tail# 56-879 Single seat On display at Masroor AFB
Tail# 57-1309 Twin seat On display at PAF Museum Karachi
Tail# 57-1312 Twin seat On display at Faisal AFB

 

[Wingman]

Thank you. Just to add more to what you added to my post in your post# 62:


1965 war

F/L Amjad Hussain (F-104 tail# 56-877) first S/D S/L AB Devayya (Mystere) but before crashing S/L AB Devayya also S/D F/L Amjad Husain on Sep. 7. F/L AB Devayya crashed and died as he failed to eject and was later awarded the highest award of India for bravery.

On September 21, Flying Officer Jamal A. Khan got to use the Starfighter in the manner for which it had originally been designed, scoring a solid Sidewinder hit on a Canberra at 33,000 feet over Fazilka. The Indian navigator was killed, but the pilot, Flight Lt. M.M. Lowe, bailed out and was taken prisoner.


1971 war

W/C ML Middlecoat (F-104 tail# 56-773) was S/D by F/L BB Soni (Mig-21) near Kutch while attacking Jamnagar air base on Dec 12.

The other F-104 pilot was Samad Changezi who was S/D by F/L Aruna K Data (Mig-21) near Naya Chor area on Dec. 17 and died in the crash.

S/L Amjad Hussain (F-104 tail# 56-804) was S/D by AA over Amritsar while attacking a radar installaion. He is the only pilot who was S/D in both 65 and 71 wars.

Where is some of the retired F-104?

Tail# 56-874 Single seat On display at Sargodah AFB
Tail# 56-875 Single seat On display at PAF Academy Risalpur
Tail# 56-879 Single seat On display at Masroor AFB
Tail# 57-1309 Twin seat On display at PAF Museum Karachi
Tail# 57-1312 Twin seat On display at Faisal AFB

Remaining F104 Crashes...

1965.... F/O G O Abbasi survived whike landing at Peshawar Base
1967.... Flt Lt G O Abbasi died this time due to inflight fire


TOTAL ARRIVED: 12
Crashed: 06
at display: 05

wherez the Last one??? crashed or at display???

 

[umair.a.rashid]

Remaining F104 Crashes...

1965.... F/O G O Abbasi survived whike landing at Peshawar Base
1967.... Flt Lt G O Abbasi died this time due to inflight fire


TOTAL ARRIVED: 12
Crashed: 06
at display: 05

wherez the Last one??? crashed or at display???

Actually there are two on display at Masroor Air Base. One's on the hill when you just pass the Guard Room, and the other's inside the PAF Secondary School.

EDIT: Scratch that, both of them are on the entrance now. They've moved the one from the school.

 

[sonicboom]

More information:

F-104 stayed in service for 12 years and was grounded after 1971 war for lack of spare parts and eventually phased out in late 1972.

Total flight hours = 11,690
1965 war =247
1971 war =104

Total received 14 (12 from USA and 2 from Taiwan as attrition replacements following the 1965 war.)

56-798 ex-taiwan On display at PAF Museum Karachi
56-868 F/O Abbasi crashed Sep 17, 1965

Note: All the information, in this post and the previous notes, was gathered from Internet sources.

 

[garibnawaz]

The F-104 was also given the title of "Badmash" by the IAF.

Ironically everytime an F-104 met an IAF MiG-21, the result was the F-104 of PAF resting in peace.

I wonder why the IAF would have named it as Badmash then.

GB

 

[garibnawaz]

The F-104 was popularly known as Manned Missile, because of small thin wings, it was built for sheer speed to execute slicing attacks on Russian Strategic Bombers. The Delta wing Russian fighter had the advantage in maneuverability. However the F-104 served PAF well in high speed interception and strikes. As for IAF not using MIG-21s in 1965, it's because most of them were destroyed by PAF strike on Pathankot airfield.

Nope.

Get your facts corrected. Only 3 MiG-21's were lost on ground in 1965 war.

2 in Pathankot and 1 in Adampur.

GB

 

[ice_man]

Nope.

Get your facts corrected. Only 3 MiG-21's were lost on ground in 1965 war.

2 in Pathankot and 1 in Adampur.

GB

before i answer your question can you tell me how many sorties did the Mig21 carry out in 65 war? & how many F-104s did it shoot down in 65?

 

[garibnawaz]

before i answer your question can you tell me how many sorties did the Mig21 carry out in 65 war? & how many F-104s did it shoot down in 65?

MiG-21 didnot saw action in 1965 war against any PAF aircraft as the aircrafts were being inducted in IAF and due limited induction numbers and lack of pilot training, the IAF MiG-21 played limited role.

Just like Su-30 did not participated in Kargil War due to same reasons.

While MiG-21's started getting indcuted into IAF in 1964, Su-30's started getting inducted in 1997.

GB

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

i guess F6 (Mig19) + its pretty powerful cannon can also earn a post retirement "badmash" title considering that it had no problems proving that it could turn enemy Mig21s into fantastic fireworks in the sky

 

[ice_man]

MiG-21 didnot saw action in 1965 war against any PAF aircraft as the aircrafts were being inducted in IAF and due limited induction numbers and lack of pilot training, the IAF MiG-21 played limited role.

Just like Su-30 did not participated in Kargil War due to same reasons.

While MiG-21's started getting indcuted into IAF in 1964, Su-30's started getting inducted in 1997.

GB

great justification & i can counter such a ridiculous justification by saying that by 71 we were in the 6th year of sanctions for the F-104s & couldn't get the necessary spares or upgrades & fell prey to the the MiG21....

MiG 21s were destroyed in 65 in the pathankot attach buddy! stop denying it!

 

[garibnawaz]

great justification & i can counter such a ridiculous justification by saying that by 71 we were in the 6th year of sanctions for the F-104s & couldn't get the necessary spares or upgrades & fell prey to the the MiG21....

MiG 21s were destroyed in 65 in the pathankot attach buddy! stop denying it!

Only 2 in Pathankot and 1 in Adampur.

I never denied this fact.

Check my earleir post.

3 MiG-21's are not the enitre IAF MiG-21 fleet.

GB

 

[zeus]

No HF-24 was shot down in Air to Air combat

 

[zeus]

if i am not wrong in 1965 war IAF had only 6 Mig-21 ,and three destroyed in ground i donot think with Three aircrafts IAF could have done much ,but IAF Records show one F-86F shot down on 4 sept 1965 by Wollen , Did PAF lost any C-130 in 1965 ?