F-104 Alas the Badmash.

[Najam Khan]

I am not a very active in Pencil art these days...these are from the good old days

 

[Wingman]

Ironically everytime an F-104 met an IAF MiG-21, the result was the F-104 of PAF resting in peace.

I wonder why the IAF would have named it as Badmash then.

GB

In 1965 on september 6, pilots from PAF's 19 Sqn, struck on phatankot destroying six Mig21s.

Two F104s were lost in 1965 war, One was of FLT LT Amjad's who encountered six or seven IAF aircrafts over Sargodha, he shot down two of them. His F104 got hit due to debri from one aircraft hit his F104, he was forced to eject.......Another F104 crashed in 1965 was of F/O G O Abbasi at Peshawar Airbase which was struck by dust storm, the pilot overshot the runway and crashed but was thrwon clear from the cockpit, while his F104 dis-integrated.

Mig 21 only shot down on F104 in 1971, that was of W/C Leslie Middle over Arabian sea. The gallant Pilot was returning from a successful mission.

 

[Wingman]

before i answer your question can you tell me how many sorties did the Mig21 carry out in 65 war? & how many F-104s did it shoot down in 65?

Garibnawaz Gharib... will be short of words

 

[Windjammer]

Nope.

Get your facts corrected. Only 3 MiG-21's were lost on ground in 1965 war.

2 in Pathankot and 1 in Adampur.

GB

Only history can determine the facts hence you need to catch up on your history to get your figures right.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/44255-first-strike.html

 

[MZUBAIR]

The pic doesnt look old.
I also saw few pics of F-6 (In "PAF piolts" thread), which dooesnt look too old.

Could any senior tell me.......are these aircrafts (F-6, F-104, B57, etc) still used in PAF for any other purpose like training or 3rdline fighter?

As much as I know .....there r number of countries including USA uses their old crafts for many purposes like Research Study for University Stds , early pilot training, or other useful works.

 

[Windjammer]

The pic doesnt look old.
I also saw few pics of F-6 (In "PAF piolts" thread), which dooesnt look too old.

Could any senior tell me.......are these aircrafts (F-6, F-104, B57, etc) still used in PAF for any other purpose like training or 3rdline fighter?

As much as I know .....there r number of countries including USA uses their old crafts for many purposes like Research Study for University Stds , early pilot training, or other useful works.

All the aircraft you mentioned have been retired from the PAF, F-104 were first and the F-6s were last to be phased out. The image of B-57 is at least 20 years old, and was probably taken during it's last sortie over and around Karachi. It's worth noting that all PAF aircraft now support the full flag as the tail insignia and this has been the practice for the last some 15 years.

 

[Wingman]

Please check out the Tail Number of B57 in the picture 53-39-16, The number 53, shows the year in which it was first flown in the skies of USA and then after 1955 PAF received 24+2 Martin B57s for Squadron 7 and 8, to form the NO.31 Bomber Wing

The B57s were phased out in 1984.

 

[Wingman]

The F104s were phased out in 1972...and F6s in 2000, but a few kept flying till 2003-04...

 

[Ping]

i guess F6 (Mig19) + its pretty powerful cannon can also earn a post retirement "badmash" title considering that it had no problems proving that it could turn enemy Mig21s into fantastic fireworks in the sky

You forgot to add the primary weapon, Aim-9B. That Mig-21 was bought down by Sidewinder. And given the fact that trying to evade a missile would bleed energy, it no surprise that PAF had the advantage in a guns dogfight even if the first fired missiles fail to hit. The direct missile kills is pretty high for PAF in those wars, almost 30 - 40% IIRC. In contrast the Soviet K-13 was the only missile in IAF and only Mig-21s carried them(in contrast, almost all types of PAF fighters carry Sidewinders), and they were basically junk and was only attributed to 3 or 4 kills. They were scrapped and junked immediately after the war. The rest of 90% Kills were brought down by good old WW-2 style guns & cannons.

Edit: And contrary to popular belief by some Pakistanis, Mig-19/F-6 is not a generation behind the Mig-21. Both are of the same second generation. Infact unofficially you can call it a generation ahead like 2.5 or something(just like 4.5G), due to superior missiles.

 

[Patriot]

You forgot to add the primary weapon, Aim-9B. That Mig-21 was bought down by Sidewinder. And given the fact that trying to evade a missile would bleed energy, it no surprise that PAF had the advantage in a guns dogfight even if the first fired missiles fail to hit. The direct missile kills is pretty high for PAF in those wars, almost 40 - 50% IIRC.

Why do you people come up with absurd claims?If PAF had that kind of scuess with missiles half of IAF would've been vanished.
Air to Air Missile Success Rates:-
In 1965, 3 missile kills were achieved for a total of 33 AIM-9B fired.
In 1971, 6 missile kills were achieved for total of 51 AIM-9B fired; no kill was achieved via Solitary Mantra 530.
-
Source: Air Commodore (retired) M Kaiser Tufail book.(The same guy who wrote about PAF failure in Kargil)

 

[Ping]

I'm quoting neutral sources, ACIG, which in itself takes from American sources of kills- at that time in the height of Cold war where Pakistan was close to U.S and Socialist India was cosying up to USSR!!
A Pakistani Air Commodore would mostly say that. And are you sure he said that in his book, or just making things up?
And that is not 40-50... I was trying to say 30-40% of the kills scored, not the whole fleet of IAF or Missiles hit probability! You responded after I edited.

 

[Patriot]

Why would he deny Missile Kills?The missiles did not have that kind ratio (40-60&#37 even during Vietnam war let alone 1965.If you read his book you will totally change your views.He is very neutral (even discredits some of PAF Kills).In any case, you can continue to believe that most of the IAF was destroyed via Missiles not by guns.(and i don't see anything wrong with that- As long as the millitary can get the job done its fine..does not matter if they shoot down the enemy planes via missiles or guns).

 

[Ping]

Probably because it credits pilot skills more. It definitely ain't only 6 missile kills. And like I said, I'm not talking about hit probabilities but % of the kills attributed to missiles.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

if you see the sources & bibliography he used, you will know that it wasn't nationalism which led him to write the book....it was fact-finding mission. It gives a very accurate account of the air wars.

 

[Ping]

I have a hard time believing it. There is too much difference in figures, and I'm not even talking about Indian version of kills here.