Exclusive: PAF Airchief Visits Rafale & M2k Units

[mingle]

Qatar is going to help finance new F16s for Pakistan .

Inside Brief I hope it's true we need these jetts Atleast 36-45

 

[Marker]

PM is on a regular visit.
http://mofa.gov.pk/prime-ministers-visit-to-qatar/
Plus on 29-2-2020, Afghan Peace Agreement will be signed and Pakistan is invited to attend this occasion.

 

[mingle]

PM is on a regular visit.
http://mofa.gov.pk/prime-ministers-visit-to-qatar/
Plus on 29-2-2020, Afghan Peace Agreement will be signed and Pakistan is invited to attend this occasion.

IK won't be there it's SMQ

 

[Thorough Pro]

You missed the point.
When you buy a handgun for self-defence, you don't buy the one which is marketed as the cheapest rather the one which is marketed as reliable and capable. That is why people happily pay Rs. 500,000 for a Glock (which sells for about Rs. 65,000 all over the world) instead of buying Rs. 5,000 Darra made.

Buying luxury cars, villas and even jet liners is not only for personal comfort but also a show of status in the society. These type of goods do not follow normal Price - Demand curve. Because the mind set of the buyers is different; their want is personal comfort and show of status.

But buying weapon system for a country is totally a different ball game.

Yes, affordability is not an issue for QEAF.

Till early 90s QEAF was holding an inventory of 15 Mirage F-1C/E, 6 Alpha Jets and 4 Hawk Hunters.

12 Mirage 2000-5 were procured in late 90s to replace 15 Mirage F-1C/E.

24 Rafale were ordered in 2015 and remaining 12 were ordered in 2017.

36 F-15s and 24 Typhoons were ordered in 2017.

Why QAEF went into shopping for top of the line jet fighters and that, in large quantity after 2015 (about 15 years after the last buy)?

It was not because of some “political pressure” from the west as some honorable members of PDFs were mistakenly mentioning in their post.

It was because the threat from its neighbors – UAE and Saudia Arabia.

Since QAEF already signed the contract for 96 4++ generation fighter jets costing around 25-30 billion dollars, buying JF-17 is remote possibility unless PAC pitch some very attractive package.

Due to induction of three different platforms and about 100 fighters, training of 100+ aircrew will be cumbersome task.

QEAF will need a 4++ generation LIFT trainer aircraft in their inventory.

That is why I mentioned to pitch JF-17B Block III, a tandem cockpit version with advance avionics package and customized as LIFT trainer aircraft.

A platform which can be utilized as both 4++ generation LIFT trainer and a multi-role fighter with best turnaround time, efficient and low cost logistic support.

To customize JF-17B as LIFT package, both Chinese and Leonardo help will be required.

This will be very expensive up-gradation but it will worth more than what PAC spends.

 

[blain2]

Qatar is going to help finance new F16s for Pakistan .

I hope not. Please stop lowering Pakistan on the basis of such hearsay.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Mirage Battle Commander
@Knuckles

Hi,

I would like to take the JF17 fighter aircraft operation a bit further.

As an engineer---your machine reflects on your frame of mind---why you made it the way you did---. Fighter aircraft build is no different than the cars that you build---the only thing unique in this incidence is that pakistanis don't build any cars---.

From a Rustom / Sohrab Bicycle to a Kingchi or Kimchee whatever that is---our engineering went to a JF17 fighter aircraft---.

In the world of engineering---things don't happen like that---. For that very reason our neighbor has failed miserably---.

The thing is that as a new aircraft---even the Paf would be hard pressed to claim that its pilots have gotten to use 100% of its utility to the best of its capabilities---.

Until an unless we come thru a full fledged air to air combat---till that time there is a certain amount of uncertainty left---.

When I was selling Lincolns---I once asked my supervisor---Hey why do all these old Lincolns and new Lincoln insutrumentation looks the same and at the same place---.

His answer was---this is a rich persons car---old or middle aged---they want a new model---but their mind is programmed to reach in a certain direction to change the radio---set the air conditioning---turn signals---vipers switch---lights on off etc etc etc---.

Same with BMW---Mercedes---Porsche---look the same operates the same---.

So these GCC members flying in their expensive fighter aircraft are used to the internal configuration of their aircrafts---.

In the late 80's---Ford motor company's Ford Ranger---small truck was having a very difficult time in being sold---.

More americans were buying the Toyota pickup---with numbers going down---Ford was in a crisis mode---.

Then someone came up with the idea---design a Ford Ranger to look like a Toyota---. That is what Ford did---and they were able to salvage their Ranger truck lines in the late 80's early 90's.

If Paf wants to sell the GCC---it needs to make the interior instrumentation look like the Rafale's or like the M2K's---.

Remember---when you are sitting in a car---you are looking at the instruments and not at the outside of the car---.

The best chance that Pakistan has of selling the JF17 to---are countries flying older 3rd gen aircraft who want get into modern times---.

 

[Marker]

You missed the point.
When you buy a handgun for self-defence, you don't buy the one which is marketed as the cheapest rather the one which is marketed as reliable and capable. That is why people happily pay Rs. 500,000 for a Glock (which sells for about Rs. 65,000 all over the world) instead of buying Rs. 5,000 Darra made.

Should I infer that you consider JF-17 an unreliable and incapable aircraft?
If so, then I do not agree.

Defence procurement is always done by professionals. They know what they want and how much it costs. Final contract is signed only after lot of negotiations.

I think you have a very wrong impression of young Arab Sheikhs. They are very shrewd businessmen.

Only an ignorant will pay 77 times more of actual price if the same is available somewhere at its original price.

JF-17 cant be used as a LIFT for the fighters Qatar is acquiring as it can't replicate their systems etc.

I posted this not a long ago, which might help you understand what a LIFT requirements are generally.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turk...cost-to-pakistan.405814/page-11#post-12099899

The present electronic packages installed on JF-17 B are not for LIFT role.

What I am recommending is to customized this aircraft for LIFT role.

Specially avionics packages and flight control system need customization.

L-15 can simulate most of the flight profiles of Chinese Fighter aircraft and some Russian -Chinese versions and
M-346 can simulate most of the western 4th Generation fighters flight profiles.

By customizing JF-17B for both western and eastern fighters, the aircraft can be launched as a potent LIFT aircraft.

PAC has to work with Leonardo and Chinese firms. The project will be a very expensive venture. Therefore PAC should also look into some eligible customers.

By gaining the experience, PAC will be able to produce a LIFT version for 5th generation stealth fighters.

 

[mingle]

I hope not. Please stop lowering Pakistan on the basis of such hearsay.

It's not begging its due to IMF program I believe if there is a deal about F16s ??

 

[Marker]

• The arab mind set as explained by one of our members @MastanKhan, They do not go for practically they go for luxury and prestige which gives them bragging rights. Why buy Jf-17 when you have Rafael or you can order twice as much F-16V or F-15s for 5 times the price. It would make sense to them because its HABIBI MONEY PAPA AMERKIA YALA YALA GOOD, but it makes sense to me because their systems, module and doctrine will not be compatible with JF-17 PLUS IF THEY DO WHAT DO YOU THINK AMERIKA WILL DO TO THEM? THATS RIGHT SANCTION THEM.

This thread deals with QEAF and visit of PAF ACM. Not the "Arab Mindset"!! Please give due respect to other nations, their culture, their behavior and their language. All Arabs are Pakistan's friends and brotherly nations.

• So let us assume even if we were interested to buy the Jf-17 dont you think it will be a big pain in the but for a pilot to use JF-17 as LIFT because my god is it difficult to use a Proper fighter as a Fighter trainer for new pilots they will simply fail the JF-17 is a Proper proper fighter, it is complex, it requires attention, it requires care you cannot just sit in the cockpit and fly the throttle alone has like 6 switches and each one can do like 35 billion tasks. THE AMERIKANS WILL NEVER EVER LET THEM AND IF THEY DID THE JF-17 IS HARD TO EMPLOY (HARD TO EMPLOY WRITE IT DOWN 50 TIME) IT IS EASY TO FLY THE DAMN THING ALL 4TH GEN PLANES ARE EASY TO FLY BUT HOW EFFECTIVE CAN YOU BE WITH IT, CAN YOU PROPERLY EMPLOY THE THING THAT THE THING IS SUPPOSE TO DO, YOU KNOW DO THE THING TO OTHER THINGS.

The weapons procured by Qatar armed forces was of mixed origin since 1950.

There is no evidence in the past that Qatar had any issue with US on procuring weapons from Russia, China and Pakistan.

QEAF already bought eight Super Mushshaks.

PAC will be able to sell JF-17A/B to QEAF very soon as it is very competent multi-role fighter aircraft that can carry most of the western and eastern weapons easily.

Aircraft designed for LIFT role are not average trainer aircraft. They are basically full-fledged fighter aircraft. The avionic packages installed in these aircraft simulate flight characteristics, weapons, ECM/EW and radars of 4th or 5th generation aircraft. T-7 Red Hawk is one of the sophisticated AJT designed and produced by Boeing for USAF for LIFT role simulating US 4th and 5th generation aircraft.

My suggestion to customize JF-17B for LIFT role was due to following:

LIFT aircraft are customized to simulate flight profiles, weapons and other EW/ECM avionics of some specific fighters. M-346 can simulate the Saab JAS-39 Gripen, the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Similarly Yak-130 and L-15 can simulate flight characteristics of most of the 3rd and 4th generation aircraft of Russian and Chinese origin.

If PAC managed to customize JF-17B for LIFT role incorporating both western and eastern fighter aircraft simulation, this new product will be a sure success in world market.

PAC is already into designing and production of a 5th generation aircraft. Experience gain during this customizing project will be very helpful to produce LIFT version for the forthcoming new 5th generation aircraft.

@Mirage Battle Commander
@Knuckles


If Paf wants to sell the GCC---it needs to make the interior instrumentation look like the Rafale's or like the M2K's---.

Remember---when you are sitting in a car---you are looking at the instruments and not at the outside of the car---.

The best chance that Pakistan has of selling the JF17 to---are countries flying older 3rd gen aircraft who want get into modern times---.

Let us compare interiors of four fighter aircraft which will be in the inventory of QEAF.

Dassault Rafale cockpit

Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon cockpit

F-15 E Strike Eagle cockpit

Mirage 2000-5 cockpit

Now see JF-17 Block 2 cockpit.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Jf 17 cannot lift too much payload f16 is awesome . Mirages are prefered too as strike platforms all around the world. Even old ones are very very good for the role.

 

[Marker]

Jf 17 cannot lift too much payload f16 is awesome . Mirages are prefered too as strike platforms all around the world. Even opd ones are very very good for the role.

JF-17 Block 2 and Mirage III/V can carry 4000 kg of payload.
However, F16 can carry 7700 kg of payload.
The advantage of JF-17 is that it can be integrated to carry both western and eastern weapons.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

JF-17 Block 2 and Mirage III/V can carry 4000 kg of payload.
However, F16 can carry 7700 kg of payload.
The advantage of JF-17 is that it can be integrated to carry both western and eastern weapons.

I know all that you can afford 2 or 3 jf17 for price of 1 f16 and that makes payload to 12000 kg for same price i know that .

But still my point does stand a single jf 17 as good as f16 when it comes to lift power or max speed.

 

[The Eagle]

Qatar is going to help finance new F16s for Pakistan .

I don't know why you have to do this. Why any of the nations will do so? Isn't that like downplaying your own family just like that. Please.

 

[Raider 21]

This thread deals with QEAF and visit of PAF ACM. Not the "Arab Mindset"!! Please give due respect to other nations, their culture, their behavior and their language. All Arabs are Pakistan's friends and brotherly nations.



The weapons procured by Qatar armed forces was of mixed origin since 1950.

There is no evidence in the past that Qatar had any issue with US on procuring weapons from Russia, China and Pakistan.

QEAF already bought eight Super Mushshaks.

PAC will be able to sell JF-17A/B to QEAF very soon as it is very competent multi-role fighter aircraft that can carry most of the western and eastern weapons easily.

Aircraft designed for LIFT role are not average trainer aircraft. They are basically full-fledged fighter aircraft. The avionic packages installed in these aircraft simulate flight characteristics, weapons, ECM/EW and radars of 4th or 5th generation aircraft. T-7 Red Hawk is one of the sophisticated AJT designed and produced by Boeing for USAF for LIFT role simulating US 4th and 5th generation aircraft.

My suggestion to customize JF-17B for LIFT role was due to following:

LIFT aircraft are customized to simulate flight profiles, weapons and other EW/ECM avionics of some specific fighters. M-346 can simulate the Saab JAS-39 Gripen, the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Similarly Yak-130 and L-15 can simulate flight characteristics of most of the 3rd and 4th generation aircraft of Russian and Chinese origin.

If PAC managed to customize JF-17B for LIFT role incorporating both western and eastern fighter aircraft simulation, this new product will be a sure success in world market.

PAC is already into designing and production of a 5th generation aircraft. Experience gain during this customizing project will be very helpful to produce LIFT version for the forthcoming new 5th generation aircraft.



Let us compare interiors of four fighter aircraft which will be in the inventory of QEAF.

Dassault Rafale cockpit
View attachment 609758

Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon cockpit
View attachment 609760

F-15 E Strike Eagle cockpit
View attachment 609762

Mirage 2000-5 cockpit
View attachment 609765
Now see JF-17 Block 2 cockpit.
View attachment 609770

Brotherly countries is not the term. The correct word is allies. They were not there nor did they assist when Feb 26th happened.

On the rest of the side. Great post. If we were to meet you and I would have plenty to talk about.

 

[Nomad40]

Brotherly countries is not the term. The correct word is allies. They were not there nor did they assist when Feb 26th happened.

On the rest of the side. Great post. If we were to meet you and I would have plenty to talk about.

AGREED THERE ARE NO BROTHERS JUST BENEFITS AT THE TIME OF NEED NO ARAB OR XYZ WILL BE WITH US.

This thread deals with QEAF and visit of PAF ACM. Not the "Arab Mindset"!! Please give due respect to other nations, their culture, their behavior and their language. All Arabs are Pakistan's friends and brotherly nations.



The weapons procured by Qatar armed forces was of mixed origin since 1950.

There is no evidence in the past that Qatar had any issue with US on procuring weapons from Russia, China and Pakistan.

QEAF already bought eight Super Mushshaks.

PAC will be able to sell JF-17A/B to QEAF very soon as it is very competent multi-role fighter aircraft that can carry most of the western and eastern weapons easily.

Aircraft designed for LIFT role are not average trainer aircraft. They are basically full-fledged fighter aircraft. The avionic packages installed in these aircraft simulate flight characteristics, weapons, ECM/EW and radars of 4th or 5th generation aircraft. T-7 Red Hawk is one of the sophisticated AJT designed and produced by Boeing for USAF for LIFT role simulating US 4th and 5th generation aircraft.

My suggestion to customize JF-17B for LIFT role was due to following:

LIFT aircraft are customized to simulate flight profiles, weapons and other EW/ECM avionics of some specific fighters. M-346 can simulate the Saab JAS-39 Gripen, the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Similarly Yak-130 and L-15 can simulate flight characteristics of most of the 3rd and 4th generation aircraft of Russian and Chinese origin.

If PAC managed to customize JF-17B for LIFT role incorporating both western and eastern fighter aircraft simulation, this new product will be a sure success in world market.

PAC is already into designing and production of a 5th generation aircraft. Experience gain during this customizing project will be very helpful to produce LIFT version for the forthcoming new 5th generation aircraft.



Let us compare interiors of four fighter aircraft which will be in the inventory of QEAF.

Dassault Rafale cockpit
View attachment 609758

Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon cockpit
View attachment 609760

F-15 E Strike Eagle cockpit
View attachment 609762

Mirage 2000-5 cockpit
View attachment 609765
Now see JF-17 Block 2 cockpit.
View attachment 609770

Meri jan ALLAH kary Jf-17 puri dunya lele, Qatar is a little different from the rest they get a bit of bashing from UAE and KSA (dont trust) but in my own opinion dont see it happening but nevertheless I do not have much knowledge on this topic just mere experience. Good analysis I wish I were not as lazy so I would point out some good facts.