Ex-Lavi chief calls for new fighter, not $11 billion on F-35

[Tshering22]

They will because you are a common enemy of Pakistan.
You togetherhave fought wars with Pakistan in past and now the current war eminating from Afghanistan... as well.

Why suddenly indian and Israel feels that the aircraft in their inventory are not good enough to meet their adversaries?

Buddy, we've got 60's MiG-21s, 70s and 80s MiG-27 and 80s MiG-29s as our prime fighter fleets. Su-30 MKI is a recent addition and barring it, our inventory is pretty old. So we need new fighters. LCA would take Mig-21's place, MRCA the MiG-29+MiG-27 and the AMCA and PAKFA as frontline heavy fighters complementing the roles of MKI.

Same way with Saudi and other Arab states rapidly upgrading their fighter fleet to Typhoons and Rafales with the prospect of Saudis considering F-35 and LM possibly offering them, Israel is considering looking for options outside being totally US dominated.

Think about it: their commercial airlines are ALL-Boeing fleet; their fighter fleet is ALL-US made. That's like putting all eggs in one basket too long. Its a win-win situation.

It is not because of Pakistan is the only idea in anyway. For us, the military threat is from possibly PRC. But for Israel yes perhaps you and their neighbours.

Let's see what the Knesset has to say on this. This is just an official's perspective.

 

[jha]

Dude, this is the same thing I recommended on a thread in India Defence section. I was thinking that since US is denying Israelis the source codes to modify the fighter to their wish, we'd take the advantage and invite Israel to join AMCA project. They might have to wait for another 15 years, but with their participation, this can be reduced to 10 years since we've already completed wind tunnel testing of the design.

In return for their participation, they get the source codes, a fighter that can be assembled in Israel and modiefied as they wish and better strategic ties than ever.

I even said that if Singapore has a change in heart as well, it should be welcomed to join the AMCA as a tri-lateral program.

You are one hell of a "PAUL" baba...
This may be just a pressure tactic but comes at a good time...The we are proceeding with our relationships with Russia and Israel, i think secretly we WILL collaborate with Israel for AMCA..who wants a repeat of LCA..About Russia joining AMCA - whether they join or, not they will be supplying the missiles for the plane..

 

[somebozo]

well the israelis have no money and they are begging billions from USA..so likely USA still carriers the power punch in Israei airforce decision. The Jews have a simple logic, if you cant get it then steal it. Israeli companies are cositently able to comeup with enhancement of various defence product be is russian jets or american missle defence as well counter measures. The lion share of israeli defence industry is homeground modifications and upgrades.

meantime, here is a nice video of what JSF is capable of.

 

[SpArK]

well the israelis have no money and they are begging billions from USA..so likely USA still carriers the power punch in Israei airforce decision.

meantime, here is a nice video of what JSF is capable of.

YouTube- JSF - Normal take off and vertical landing

Dude Israels forex reserve is much bigger than UAE, Canada, Australia etc.. do some research before jumping into BS statements.

 

[blain2]

the F-35 that the Israeli's want is more expensive becuase they want to do their own upgrades to it. If they simply buy the F-35 (89-92 mill) without making modifications to it they will pay less then the F-15 SE (100+ mill). The F-35 price estimate with Israel modifications 130 mill.

If I was them I would buy the off the shelf F-35 then incrementally start refurbishing the current F-15's to the SE model.

As per the Boeing folks, F-15SE is 40% cheaper than the baseline F-35. The issue on hand is that Israel sees the writing on the wall which is that US Congress and USG will not be able to provide drastically more funding than the current levels of about ~ $3B that Israel gets within the year. Even if they were to allocate all of that money to acquire the F-35s, the fleet would take a long time to come up to the numbers they feel would be enough as a deterrence. The money available for the F-35 acquisition becomes even tighter given that like all countries, IDF also have rivalries over acquisition priorities for the three services and with the shared $3 billion, there is only so much that can go to IDFAF for the F-35 program.

USG is not in the mood to double the aid so these are the issues on hand. Israel may want to look elsewhere to split the costs of a 5th gen aircraft and the Russian program may be a good one to look at, however the US government will have some reservations about Israeli know-how going to the Russians who in the end may sell the aircraft to other countries not on friendly terms with the US. This would ruffle a lot of feathers on the US side given that a lot of R&D in defence in Israel is funded by the US.

 

[Tshering22]

well the israelis have no money and they are begging billions from USA..so likely USA still carriers the power punch in Israei airforce decision. The Jews have a simple logic, if you cant get it then steal it. Israeli companies are cositently able to comeup with enhancement of various defence product be is russian jets or american missle defence as well counter measures. The lion share of israeli defence industry is homeground modifications and upgrades.

meantime, here is a nice video of what JSF is capable of.

YouTube- JSF - Normal take off and vertical landing

Thanks for the video, buddy. But I think you're wrong about this case. There's nothing for Israelis to steal from us since we might be offering them a share in core tech of AMCA.

The Israelis are not buying the C variant VTOL F-35 and are going for the regular A/B version. The only country taking in the C variant is USA and possibly UK.

The Israelis don't have a huge defense budget and the sky rocketing cost of JSF is a worry for them. It might be the best fighter right now near induction but if it is out of their hands, how do you think they'd choose to buy it?

75 fighters for $11 billion is waayyyy too much. Apart from making such a huge investment, they don't have any say on the technology. That's suicidal.

 

[zagahaga]

Looks like isreal is provokeing USA for source codes ... Let them let's see how long can they do it for

 

[humanfirst]

Israel should join china for codevelopment of jxx.Since china relied on Israeli technology for development of j10,israel can offer much in avionics,softwares etc in jxx project.

 

[Tshering22]

Israel should join china for codevelopment of jxx.Since china relied on Israeli technology for development of j10,israel can offer much in avionics,softwares etc in jxx project.

And we lose the opportunity to work with them? Not a chance dude. They stated us as a prospective partner, we use that as a chance to invite them to AMCA.

This is for now only a pressure tactic on USA but if Americans don't bend, I think AMCA with Israel is the best option on the table. A trusted friend, a high-tech contributor and a catalyst to faster work in the lethargic government owned defence firms in India. Everybody wins here if Israel joins us instead.

 

[Thomas]

As per the Boeing folks, F-15SE is 40% cheaper than the baseline F-35.

Since the price tag of the F-35 is 89 - 92 million that would put the F-15 SE price tag at around 55 mill which is definitely not the case. More likely Boeing is using the price thrown around by F-35 critics of 150 million. Which included all research and development costs. not what one would actually cost off the production line.

Israel debates F-15 purchase

AF rejects DoD cost estimates for F-35 - Air Force News, news from Iraq - Air Force Times

 

[blain2]

Since the price tag of the F-35 is 89 - 92 million that would put the F-15 SE price tag at around 55 mill which is definitely not the case. More likely Boeing is using the price thrown around by F-35 critics of 150 million. Which included all research and development costs. not what one would actually cost off the production line.

Israel debates F-15 purchase

AF rejects DoD cost estimates for F-35 - Air Force News, news from Iraq - Air Force Times

Price wars aside (the price for SE could go lower if countries buy it and upgrade their existing fleets to SE specifications), the real issue is Israel's inability to afford F-35s in large numbers and the only option is to hope for American largess which, given the tight fiscal situation, may not be forthcoming very readily.

However I suspect the Israelis will stick with the F-35 as any other program would be very risky and pose even bigger problems for them from a deterrence stand point.

 

[SBD-3]

the F-35 that the Israeli's want is more expensive becuase they want to do their own upgrades to it. If they simply buy the F-35 (89-92 mill) without making modifications to it they will pay less then the F-15 SE (100+ mill). The F-35 price estimate with Israel modifications 130 mill.

If I was them I would buy the off the shelf F-35 then incrementally start refurbishing the current F-15's to the SE model.

but given the offer of up gradation of current F-15s to SE standards at half the cost of new SE...and given the F-15 fleet of IdAF...I suspect Silent Eagle is the most economical and logical decision as they would would enjoy.
1) minimal infrastructure needs.
2) greater familiarity with the AC.
3) sufficient operational experience with aircraft.
So I suspect very very strongly Israel going for Silent Eagle...

 

[Tshering22]

but given the offer of up gradation of current F-15s to SE standards at half the cost of new SE...and given the F-15 fleet of IdAF...I suspect Silent Eagle is the most economical and logical decision as they would would enjoy.
1) minimal infrastructure needs.
2) greater familiarity with the AC.
3) sufficient operational experience with aircraft.
So I suspect very very strongly Israel going for Silent Eagle...

They'd need SE to replace their older F-15s. No other aircraft in their reach with similar capabilities isn't it? But the unit cost for the SEs I heard is around $100 million. That's a lot for a semi-stealth fighter and I don't think Israelis can afford that unless US covers 80% of the cost.

 

[SBD-3]

They'd need SE to replace their older F-15s. No other aircraft in their reach with similar capabilities isn't it? But the unit cost for the SEs I heard is around $100 million. That's a lot for a semi-stealth fighter and I don't think Israelis can afford that unless US covers 80% of the cost.

Why would they replace their old aircrafts when the Boeing is offereing to rebuild them to SE standard in app 50 Million....not a bad deal...and secondly considering their adversaries....SE is more than enough.....They have decades of experience with Eagle. They know its strengths and weaknesses...and its a damn good fighter.....It would be an unwise decision to look for a new low observable Platform when you already have a similar platform available in half the price .Instead of buying a new JSF, they can convert almost three eagles in their inventory to SE standard...comparable with JSF.....no AF likes to accept the risk unless absolute necessary.....IdAF would definitely have their constraints and Slient Eagle is an excellent choice... they have 127 eagles in their inventory....they can effectively have 127 SE in the cost of 42 JSFs.....not a bad deal at all IMHO, and that too on a short time horizon..

 

[Tshering22]

Why would they replace their old aircrafts when the Boeing is offereing to rebuild them to SE standard in app 50 Million....not a bad deal...and secondly considering their adversaries....SE is more than enough.....They have decades of experience with Eagle. They know its strengths and weaknesses...and its a damn good fighter.....It would be an unwise decision to look for a new low observable Platform when you already have a similar platform available in half the price .Instead of buying a new JSF, they can convert almost three eagles in their inventory to SE standard...comparable with JSF.....no AF likes to accept the risk unless absolute necessary.....IdAF would definitely have their constraints and Slient Eagle is an excellent choice... they have 127 eagles in their inventory....they can effectively have 127 SE in the cost of 42 JSFs.....not a bad deal at all IMHO, and that too on a short time horizon..

The deal is good though but it also depends on the present political scenario. The thing is they want 5th generation platforms that can replace the F-16s as well as F-15s. Both SEs and F-35s is out of question for the IDAF due to monetary factors.

You do know that the older F-15s would have to be completely changed to get the internal bay and the slanting fins don't you? I think Israel should keep its pressure on USA and search for an alternative.

This is the same situation that they had with France 3 decades back.