EU Firms Help Power China's Military Rise

[Beast]

So far China did not manage to build anything that we did not build 50 years ago. :/ Even your small moon rover was something we did already 50 years ago...and you even needed help from us for your Jade Rabbit. But thats ok. I think it is good to help developing countries. And no, you can´t build a spaceship capable to reach mars with a crew. You can´t even achieve a Holtzmann injection. It was ESA who guided your Jade Rabbit to the moon. Chinas spaceprogram is a 100% copy of the russian one. Unfortunately you were not able yet to go beyond LEO.

What you don´t realize is, that there is zero need for such an airplane in Europe. We simply have no enemies who could attack us. We are bound into NATO. We control the entire globe. China is part of our sphere and basicly has become a western country. Russias economy is smaller than Italy and no threat.

Evry investment needs a purpose. It is a sign of stuctural failure if you build something that you don´t even need. But it is also a win to make your enemy wasting money on garbage. So far the J-20 does not impress me. It is useless for anything we do and plan to do.

So far you were not even able to tell me what we would need this garbage for.

Let me try again, why would we need such an airplane and for what purpose? What strategy would follow this?

Somebody just give an example of 5th gen fighter. Yet you Europe offer nothing fruitful in return to counter.

ESA contribution is overstate. Without ESA, jade rabbit will still reach moon. Letting you all participate just trying to paint it as a multi nation collaboration to give its good light. I better warn you. After 2020. your european will all using Chinese space station.

China will ban the penniless US from participating the program

 

[Sam Manekshaw]

Well so far i saw nothing in Chinese technology that is not western. Submarines, airplanes, helicopters. Thats all western tech. Or do you have something that we don´t have?

I don´t understand the argument here. We live in a globalized world.

Gun powder..the basic thing

 

[MarkusS]

Somebody just give an example of 5th gen fighter. Yet you Europe offer nothing fruitful in return to counter.

ESA contribution is overstate. Without ESA, jade rabbit will still reach moon. Letting you all participate just trying to paint it as a multi nation collaboration to give its good light. I better warn you. After 2020. your european will all using Chinese space station.

China will ban the penniless US from participating the program

I try again to break through your wall of nationalism. For what purpose would we need a 5th Generation fighter? You should be able to name a few scenarios that would justify such an investment.

As for Jade Rabbit, without ESA it could not reach the moon, since China does not own tracking stations and is not capable to oversee flight in deep space in real time. I find it bad, that it broke so soon. I was excited if we can get some data from it. Unfortunately it did not survive the first lunar night.

After 2020? The ISS is planned to run until 2028 at the moment and ESA currently plans for time beyond this. We have a moon base in the pipeline and a manned version of the Ariane V ME.

So far ESA showed no interest in cooperation with China in any space station projects. China asked many times to become member at the ISS project. We denied that. The same question must be asked there. What would we gain from letting China participate in the ISS? I see nothing fruitful in such a cooperation.

We concentrate 100% on cooperation with NASA. Our ATV and Ariane 5 ME are planned to be able to dock and work together with NASA Orion as well as the SLS.

I don´t see China as enemy and i think it is good they finally catch up. Competition is good for business. But competition must stay competition. I´m not that interested in cooperation with China in that field. I see not much we could gain with it.

Take the moon base for example. We have some interesting ideas. That we send machines which 3D print the walls of the base out of moon soil. First tests we did were sucessful . We have the rocket to go there (Ariane V ME), we have the technology ready and the funds. What exactly would China add to this project? I ask this in a honest way. Hope you can be at least rational and answer my questions. Would be kinda cool if you stick to the questions and give me some arguments and not try to fall in nationalist bla bla.

@Beast: that guy you talk to is a false flag Indian troll who struts around in PDF as if he really were someone he 's pretending to be. Many Chinese people here knew it. Be aware.

You are wrong buddy. I see india even lower than China. For me 3rd world countries are all the same. I don´t prefer any one over each other. But it is funny. The indians here say i´m Pakistani or from Bangladesh, because i said that India is a 3rd world hole and chinese say i´m indian because i don´t stick to their cheap propaganda. It is amusing to see that.

I pretend nothing. I was invited here.

 

[Audio]

at least you agree now that it is me.

Well my father is german, my mother is italian. I´m mediterrean. Glad that we can close this bullshit now. Now since i showed myself. What about you. You should play with open cards as well.

He is playing you so you go off topic being busy defending yourself. You should ignore inquiries into your origin...

Running with engines from a French company owned by MAN.

#edit: see his latest post, takes third of a screen and talks about nothing else but you.

 

[UKBengali]

@Audio : Yes, China still has not mastered propulsion yet.

It is able to show some real progress with its own engines like WS-10A for J-11 series, WZ-9 for WZ-10 and QC-280 for Type-052D. All its nuclear submarines of course do not use foreign engines.

China is now in a mixed-phase where you are still see both foreign and indigenous engines in its military products but expect it to become fully indigenous by end of this decade for all new-build equipment.

 

[Audio]

@Audio : Yes, China still has not mastered propulsion yet.

It is able to show some real progress with its own engines like WS-10A for J-11 series, WZ-9 for WZ-10 and QC-280 for Type-052D. All its nuclear submarines of course do not use foreign engines.

China is now in a mixed-phase where you are still see both foreign and indigenous engines in its military products but expect it to become fully indigenous by end of this decade for all new-build equipment.

QC-280 is based on Ukrainian tech. Dare i say it's probably not the latest thing.
As for your predictions....lol, they order 1000 helicopters, you say they will be fully indigenous at the end of the decade. Maybe, in 20 years......

 

[UKBengali]

QC-280 is based on Ukrainian tech. Dare i say it's probably not the latest thing.
As for your predictions....lol, they order 1000 helicopters, you say they will be fully indigenous at the end of the decade. Maybe, in 20 years......

Yes, the QC-280 is based on Ukrainian technology but the fact is that China is able to mass-produce the engine by itself. That is the reason that we are now seeing so many Type-052C and Type-052D being built now.

Ask yourself why EU is partnering with China for the new WZ-16 turbohaft? Might be due to the successful Chinese development of the WZ-9

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

QC-280 is based on Ukrainian tech. Dare i say it's probably not the latest thing.
As for your predictions....lol, they order 1000 helicopters, you say they will be fully indigenous at the end of the decade. Maybe, in 20 years......

GT-25000 is actually half-Ukrainian and half-Chinese, since Ukraine has no capability to develop this gas turbine alone.

Whereas QC-280 is a further improvement over GT-25000, so it is more Chinese than Ukrainian.

 

[My-Analogous]

Are you kidding me? Airbus can produce anything it gets a contract for. Don´t want to burst your bubble, but we play in a higher league than China. Light years higher. A 5th generation fighter is something totally useless for our defense strategy. What would we need this for? Explain me a single scenario where we would need this type of aircraft and why we should waste money for it?

Beside that, your "5th generation fighter" is based on almost 20 year old technology. Come back when you have something new.

Each normal A 318 has higher developed avionics than China has at hand for their most "advanced" systems.

You will learn a huge lesson soon. Blind nationalism leads to waste of money. We live in the 21st century. The time of fighter planes is long over. Those are only needed to bomb backwarded nations into submission. Who do you want to attack with them? Vietnam?

Can you please en-light me what technology Europe have which is equivalent or superior to Chinese DF-21 missiles, Kinetic Kill Vehicle for Satellite killer, Hypersonic Missile Vehicle, Chinese Fastest computer etc. and please don't say that these all are useless

 

[Audio]

Yes, the QC-280 is based on Ukrainian technology but the fact is that China is able to mass-produce the engine by itself. That is the reason that we are now seeing so many Type-052C and Type-052D being built now.

Ask yourself why EU is partnering with China for the new WZ-16 turbohaft? Might be due to the successful Chinese development of the WZ-9

WZ-16 is just a version of Turbomeca engine that will be used in the above mentioned 1000 specimens of EC-175.
The fact the Chinese designed the cold section is probably more rooted in politics then any sort of lack of know how on how to build a cold section of a particular engine in Europe. I'm no engineer but i would say designing a cold part of the engine isn't as demanding as designing a hot part, where all the pressures and explosions happen.
It's quite telling that the first engine was manufactured in France.

http://www.aerospace-technology.com...ine-completes-first-run-on-test-bench-4139782

Succesfull development of WZ-9? You don't know WZ-9 is a license built Aerospatiale (now Eurocopter) Dolphin helicopter? Development started sometime in the 70's....

GT-25000 is actually half-Ukrainian and half-Chinese, since Ukraine has no capability to develop this gas turbine alone.

Whereas QC-280 is a further improvement over GT-25000, so it is more Chinese than Ukrainian.

I won't dispute that, except that according to what i read GT25000 is fully Ukrainian and China just obtained a license, renamed it UGT25000.
QC280 is an upgrade yes, redesigned (U)GT25000 with more power.

People's Liberation Army Navy: Combat System Technology, 1949-2010 - James Bussert, Bruce Elleman - Google Knjige

Please check this out

Chinese physicists achieve quantum teleportation over 60 miles | ExtremeTech

and we are also active in it

http://www.ciit-isb.edu.pk/NEFiles/SymposiumPhysics.htm

So stop thinking that Europe are lighting ahead of China, actually in some cases Chinese are world leader

That quantum teleportation thing was in collaboration with a university in Vienna who actually holds the world record in quantum teleportations (143 km).

Quantum physics at a distance

 

[UKBengali]

Succesfull development of WZ-9? You don't know WZ-9 is a license built Aerospatiale (now Eurocopter) Dolphin helicopter? Development started sometime in the 70's....

I am referring to the engine of the Z-10 helicopter that is referred to as WZ-9.

Whatever, the WZ-16 is being co-developed with China and that would mean full technology-transfer. I would guess that EU thought best to get a few billions from China now as they will just end up making the same product but a few years down the line.

You forget two things are in China's favour now:

1. China has pretty much got the basics right now and just needs to take this to the next level

2. Virtually unlimited funds are available to develop as many types of weapons as China sees fit

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I won't dispute that, except that according to what i read GT25000 is fully Ukrainian and China just obtained a license, renamed it UGT25000.
QC280 is an upgrade yes, redesigned (U)GT25000 with more power.

People's Liberation Army Navy: Combat System Technology, 1949-2010 - James Bussert, Bruce Elleman - Google Knjige

GT-25000 was developed after the collapse of USSR. During that time, Ukraine can barely feed themselves, and they seriously lacked the money and human capital to develop this enormous project. China did participate it and it was PLAN's Type 052C 170 and 171 being the first two warships to equip with the GT-25000 gas turbine.

 

[Audio]

You are not capable of debate that is why.

Ofcourse. I edited previous post for further clarification, not that you would know the meaning of any of it:

You are not serious, you operate with floskules such a s "virtually unlimited funds" when you don't really realize those funds will get strained in the trillion $ category just to fix up the polluted water, fix it so it's usable for industry , not even drinking.

GT-25000 was developed after the collapse of USSR. During that time, Ukraine can barely feed themselves, and they seriously lacked the money and human capital to develop this massive project. China did participate it and it was PLAN's Type 052C the first warship to equip with the GT-25000 gas turbine.

I gave you link from a pretty informed person who wrote books about the matter. Your word is pretty much worthless. Sorry.

 

[Basel]

People on this forum don't understand that China is in same state now as once US or Russia were, they had also absorbed tech from around the world before they come up with their own innovations and advance tech, just recall how they ran for German tech at the end of WW2 and that tech help both countries.

So China will also come up with the same way, but now they are in transition phase in which world will see indigenous and foreign tech in their military.

 

[UKBengali]

You are not serious, you operate with floskules such a s "virtually unlimited funds" when you don't really realize those funds will get strained in the trillion $ category just to fix up the polluted water, fix it so it's usable for industry , not even drinking

You are one funny guy!

China, on PPP, has about as much money for R&D as the US now but it's economy is growing much quicker. That means that over time it will eventually spend much more than the US.

There is money to spend on other things like the polluted water which will not affect R&D. China will prioritise money for R&D as that is critical for it's national security. It will not go down the EU route of extremely high amounts of money for welfare and health care, not till it becomes much richer.

It is funny to see the frustration here at China's progress that polluted water is now being used as a reason why China cannot develop technology.