Erieye escort options for Pakistan Air Force

[Quwa]

They did and we are awaiting clearance on KC-10s.

Did PAF really request KC-10?

 

[TOPGUN]

They did and we are awaiting clearance on KC-10s.

Blain2 sir any source on the kc-10 request?? thx

 

[blain2]

KC-135 request was referred to by the CAS, PAF in an interview that I read. Would need to dig up the source. I am very sure that a request has gone to the US asking them about what can be made available to the PAF.

As is common knowledge, the very first IFR training sorties for our F-16 aircrews was also carried out with KC-10s. Its a logical and straightforward solution for the PAF in light of the fact that US has many that are surplus. The key would be to find a couple of good airframes that are in good shape.

 

[Quwa]

KC-10 request was referred to by the CAS, PAF in an interview that I read. Would need to dig up the source. I am very sure that a request has gone to the US asking them about what can be made available to the PAF.

As is common knowledge, the very first IFR training sorties for our F-16 aircrews was also carried out with KC-10s. Its a logical and straightforward solution for the PAF in light of the fact that US has many that are surplus. The key would be to find a couple of good airframes that are in good shape.

DefenseNews: EADS offered PAF the A330 MRTT...

According to defense analyst Haris Khan of the Web-based think tank Pakistan Military Consortium, Pakistan has also examined alternatives to the KC-135. European defense group EADS "has been talking to [the Air Force] to supply Airbus A330 MRTTs. However, the [Air Force] has been insisting on an MRTT capability built on an A310, which is no longer in production."

Pakistan Eyes Boost in Transport, Lift - Defense News

I guess the key merit to justify the cost would be the aircraft's ability to do both hose+drogue and boom; take up MRTT capabilities; brand new airframe for very long service. However I am certain PAF would rather grab A-310 MRTT.

 

[x_man]

1]At the moment what are our escort option? f7pg plus f16? both dont have air refeulling capabilities.

2]we should clearly define one 5th gen. and only induct 20 aircrafts for long range bombing/airsuperiority/deterent/protection of aeirees etc... of western origin rather than to wait for chinese 5th gen or thinking/daydreaming that j10 could be quickly beafed upto the specs of 4.5+ etc..

once indians make there order.. than perhaps other companies would like to sell their highteck jets to us.....

While considering escorts for SAAB 340, there are multiple factors to be considered before e.g. pre-hostility phase, hostility phase, tagged/ loose Escorts or simply dependence upon the CAPs….

Few basic facts first about SAAB…

Normal cruise speed : 200 Kts Vs 400 Kts of any fighter...
Endurance: ~ 10 hours…
Erieye range: ~ 200 Nautical Miles (NMs)

During pre-hostility phase when deployments are being taken place on both sides, I don’t think that SAAB needs any dedicated escorts. It will be a very significant phase where Erieye will play a key role while finding deployments of all Indian aircrafts and radar and radar guided weapons…Indians on the other hand will be doing same on PAF.

Once the air battle commences i.e. hostility phase, SAAB will perhaps stay well inside our own side and provide the required support as per its role. For example Sargodha is ~100 NMs from IB, so if SAAB (with a range of ~ 200 NMs) remains further 50 NMs west of Sargodha, it can still provide the suitable info and can control our CAPs…..There is no need for SAAB to stay closer to IB….It will be a very high value target and we can compromise on some range but cant afford to lose it by placing right in the heart of theatre…

While it is well inside our own side, there is no need for the dedicated tied escorts…There will already be standing CAPs close to border and provide an indirect protection for SAAB . In case the enemy fighters find a way thru CAP, the SAAB can always quickly recover to the nearest base…….However, if a situation demands a closer to border flying for some hours, dedicated escorts can be provided. Escorts could be F-16s and once operational, it can be JF-17 or perhaps FC-20 in future…

The things and data that I have discussed are very general in nature and usually available on net; however I will refrain from discussing the specific tactics and other details in the best interest of security of information...

 

[fatman17]

DefenseNews: EADS offered PAF the A330 MRTT...

According to defense analyst Haris Khan of the Web-based think tank Pakistan Military Consortium, Pakistan has also examined alternatives to the KC-135. European defense group EADS "has been talking to [the Air Force] to supply Airbus A330 MRTTs. However, the [Air Force] has been insisting on an MRTT capability built on an A310, which is no longer in production."

Pakistan Eyes Boost in Transport, Lift - Defense News

I guess the key merit to justify the cost would be the aircraft's ability to do both hose+drogue and boom; take up MRTT capabilities; brand new airframe for very long service. However I am certain PAF would rather grab A-310 MRTT.

the reason is that PIA's A310s are becoming un-economic to operate and like the earlier B-707s, they will be sold to PAF. this would be a huge cost-cutting excercise.!

 

[shehbazi2001]

One factor which makes the escorting AEW easy as compared to any other asset is that AEW itself makes the escorting easy by not only providing early warning but also early long-range IFF information.

Once valid IFF info is available at long range, BVR AAMs can be employed against aggressors and a multi-layer defence can be arranged.

Long-range IFF information shall also help the ground defences to get ready for the kill.

 

[blain2]

KC-10 request was referred to by the CAS, PAF in an interview that I read. Would need to dig up the source. I am very sure that a request has gone to the US asking them about what can be made available to the PAF.

As is common knowledge, the very first IFR training sorties for our F-16 aircrews was also carried out with KC-10s. Its a logical and straightforward solution for the PAF in light of the fact that US has many that are surplus. The key would be to find a couple of good airframes that are in good shape.

Gents old age is catching up with me. I meant to state KC-135 and not KC-10. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[blain2]

Did PAF really request KC-10?

Not but yes for surplus KC-135s. I misstated.

 

[blain2]

One factor which makes the escorting AEW easy as compared to any other asset is that AEW itself makes the escorting easy by not only providing early warning but also early long-range IFF information.

Once valid IFF info is available at long range, BVR AAMs can be employed against aggressors and a multi-layer defence can be arranged.

Long-range IFF information shall also help the ground defences to get ready for the kill.

While escorting a HVA like AEW platform is the norm, the AEW platforms of the day also have immense jamming capabilities that can be used effectively to render AAM engagements against them fairly ineffective. They can focus enough jamming against an emitter (AI radar of the adversary) to cause serious disruptions in the course of tracking and locking. At least in the case of the Erieye for the PAF, it will supplant the DA-20s in the ELINT role, as such tracking and recording adversary's RFs will be a dedicated role for this platform. It would be great to have this DRFM capability on other fighters as well, but in the absence of it on other fighter platforms, Erieyes should be able to provide a pretty good threat library to plan and train against as it starts to snoop around.

 

[Always Neutral]

Not sure what US-India ties have anything to do with Pakistan? Along with de-hyphenation, comes the opportunity to do business with both. I do not foresee a problem with Pakistan acquiring the KC-10.

KC-135s could be obtained via the EDA, no such luck trying this with Airbus conglomerate.

Dear Blain,

While the choice of IFR is excellant it will have to many strings attached ? PAF needs to spend hard cash and buy the airbus. The reason I say it is because an RAF think thank told me that PAF informal / formal requests for RAF and USAF tankers being retired have been turned down several times.

This is what I know and have no reason to dis believe.

Regards

 

[blain2]

Dear Blain,

While the choice of IFR is excellant it will have to many strings attached ? PAF needs to spend hard cash and buy the airbus. The reason I say it is because an RAF think thank told me that PAF informal / formal requests for RAF and USAF tankers being retired have been turned down several times.

This is what I know and have no reason to dis believe.

Regards

AN,

While you may be right and airbus offer is very nice in terms of its capabilities, however in my view, this is probably one capability on which PAF does not want to spend a lot of money. They'd rather put the money for new Airbus platforms into their fighter acquisition or ADGE up-gradation efforts.

My own take is that US will relent and provide KC-135s. I think the benefits outweigh the cons of acquiring this platform. Not sure if PAF would go for the RAF ones, but the USAF have a considerable number deemed surplus.

I think there have always been reservation about providing Pakistan with a platform that has some strategic value, however with IAF already having this capability and PAF also in possession of the IL-78s now, the western argument does not hold water any longer. Now they can always do what they want to and not give us what we are asking for, however I think on factual grounds, PAF has a valid enough argument. The fact that US has been forthcoming in providing training to PAF air crews on IFR techniques with KC-135 tankers is another reason for my optimism that the US will allow Pakistan to acquire the KC-135 platform.

We have some very good technical reasons too. For our overseas participation in exercises to increase, we would like to have the ability to tank our Vipers. This would allow much more flexibility in getting our pilots and aircraft over to exs. like AE etc. There is also talk of PAF participating in RF in the future. All of that would require some IFR support to streamline the hop across the pond. Otherwise its a very complicated and taxing route for both aircraft and aircrews.

 

[Super Falcon]

jf 17 is not a 5 gen and india will have its 5 gen before us even if india gets its 125mrca we still lacks a onw good fighter jets gone the days when we think that F 16 was best and about jf 17 yes no doubt about jf 17 capability but we have to be weak out of our dreams what happens when jf 17 and f 16 and j 10 will faces pak-fa +120 mrca_10 fighter jets to defend againser pilots but still we need to give them reliable fi fight0 Su30 and indian airdefence spyder i dont think that our fighter jet can beat them yes we have best but we have to give them good fighter jet to compete against indian 5 gen one more thing i never said j 10,f16 and jf 17 are bed for us they only defend us against su 30 and mig 20 what about indian pakfa and spyder air defence system how our fighter jets kill them so we have to get atleast one fighter jet of 5 gen either we develop it with china or get it from some where else the time has came for us to to do not fully depends on f 16

 

[Tomahawk]

US has upgraded some KC-135R with hose and drogue refuelling pods. So that they can do hose and drogue and boom receptacle. If PAF happens to get KC-135 it would be interesting to see which model it gets. Because out of about 550 KC-135s in service with USAF only 45 can do hose, drogue and boom.

 

[batmannow]

FOR ME best option avalliable for "Erieye escorts" is upgraded J-11 B (SU-27SK FLANKER), WITH 2 to three sqd's of "upgraded J-11 B" can certianly do the job!
its eassier to get, eassier to further " upgrade", essay to equip, & have a capability to hit back, hard & deep?

J-11(SUKHOI SU-27SK "FLANKER")
EXPORT VERSION SOLD TO CHINA AND VIETNAM

MANUFACTURED BY: SUKHOI STATE DESIGN BUREAU
MOSCOW, RUSSIA

TYPE - SUPERSONIC STRIKE FIGHTER
LENGTH: 71.9 FEET
SPAN: 48.2 FEET
RANGE: 1,900 MILES (WITHOUT AIR REFUEL)
HEIGHT: 19.4 FEET
WEIGHT: 50,000 POUNDS
ENGINE: 2 AF-35 AFTERBURNING TURBO FANS
TOP SPEED: MACH 2.3
WEAPON LOAD: 13,670 POUNDS
I/R AND RADAR HOMING AIR TO AIR MISSILES
R-73 AND R-77
LASER GUIDED BOMBS
AIR LAUNCHED VERSION SS-N-22 SUNBURN
AS-17 KRYPTON ANTI-RADAR MISSILE (KH-31)

J-11 Multirole Fighter Aircraft

Key Information

Type: Fighter
PLA Designation: Jianji-11, or Jian-11
NATO Reporting Name: N/A
Design: AVIC Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute (601 Institute)
Manufacture: AVIC Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (CAC)
Maiden Flight: N/A
Service Status: PLA Air For

Summary

The Shenyang J-11 (Jianji-11 or Jian-11) is the Chinese copy of the Sukhoi Su-27 (NATo reporting name: Flanker) air-superiority fighter built by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC). The basic variant J-11, built using Russian-supplied kits, is identical to the Su-27SK. The “indigenised” multirole variant J-11B was based on the Su-27SK/J-11 airframe, but fitted with Chinese-built avionics and weapon suite. Future productions of the J-11 will also be powered by the indigenous FWS-10A ‘Taihang’ turbofan jet engine.

Su-27SK/J-11 Co-Production

In 1992, China became the first non-CIS country to operate the Sukhoi Su-27 fighter. In 1995, Russian agreed in principle to allow the PRC to build the Su-27SK single-seat fighter locally under license. In 1996, Sukhoi Company (JSC) and SAC entered into a contract worth US$2.5 billion for the co-production of 200 Su-27SK fighters as the J-11. Under the terms of the agreement, Sukhoi/KnAAPO would supply the aircraft in kit form to be assembled in SAC. It was reported that Russia also agreed to help the PRC gradually increase the portion of Chinese-made content on the J-11, so that SAC could eventually produce the aircraft independently.

The first kit-built J-11 rolled out in December 1998, but the full-scale production did not commence until 2000 due to technical problems. Russian sources confirmed that 48 aircraft had been produced by 2002, and another 48 between 2002 and 2003. However, SAC hinted as early as 2000 that not all 200 J-11s would be built. In November 2004, Russian media reported that the J-11 production had stopped after about 100 examples were built. According to the report, the Chinese side had requested Sukhoi Company to stop deliveries of the assembly kits.

Sukhoi Company JSC actively marketed its Su-27SKM to the PRC in 2003. The Su-27SKM was a modernised multi-role variant derived from the Su-27SK, but with an improved Zhuk-27 (or N001VEP on the later variant) fire-control radar, and an upgraded cockpit featuring multifunctional displays similar to that of the Su-30MK. However, the aircraft was rejected by the PLAAF in favour of an ‘indigenised’ variant of the J-11.

J-11B Programme

In mid-2002, SAC unveiled its intention to build an upgraded multirole version of the J-11 by revealing a mock-up aircraft carrying various types of air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. Russian sources also confirmed that SAC was pursuing a multirole variant of the J-11 designated J-11B with much greater Chinese-made content. At least three examples (#523, #524, and #525) of the J-11B have been delivered to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) for flight test and evaluation since 2006. The aircraft was based on the Su-27SK/J-11 airframe, but with the following
modifications:

An indigenous multifunctional pulse-Doppler fire-control radar reportedly capable of tracking 6~8 targets and engaging 4 of them simultaneously;
An indigenous digital flight-control system;
A Chinese copy of the Russian OEPS-27 electro-optic search and tracking system;
A strapdown INS/GPS navigation system;

A ‘glass’ cockpit featuring four colour multifunctional displays (MFD) and a wide-angle holographic head-up display (HUD);

The aircraft could carry the Chinese-made PL-8 IR-homing SRAAM and PL-12 active radar-homing MRAAM for air-to-air combat. While the PLAAF currently has the capability for two-target engagement using the Su-27/-30 and R-77 (AA-12 Adder) combination, successful integration of the PL-12 on the J-11B would likely provide a genuine multi-target engagement capability. The J-11B is also expected to have enhanced air-to-surface attack capabilities with the indigenous precision strike ammunitions such as LT-2 laser-guided bomb, the LS-6 precision-guided glide bomb, the YJ-91 (Kh-31P) anti-radiation missile, and the KD-88 air-to-surface missile.

During the 6th Zhuhai Air Show held between 31 October and 5 November 2006, China revealed first official details about the indigenously developed FWS-10A ‘TaiHang’ turbofan engine. The engine had already been successfully tested on a modified Su-27K fighter and possibly on some J-11 airframes too. The engine is understood to be similar to the Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine in both technology and performance. However, it is unclear whether the FWS-10A has already been fitted on the 'indigenised' variant of the J-11.

J-11BS

There has been speculation that Shenyang is currently developing a two-seater version of the J-11B, possibly designated J-11BS. The aircraft was said to be similar to the Su-27UBK fighter-trainer, but fitted with Chinese-made powerplant, avionics, and weapon suite.