Erdogan surrenders to Putin

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

Saudi Arabia still beheads people in public. I can ensure you that no country comes close to Saudi Arabia when it comes to enforcing sharia laws.

You can deny it all you want, but Wahhabism and the Saudi royal family go hand in hand and many people equate Wahhabism with the Saudi family. As for Iran, Iran is a democracy with theocratic elements. The President does not have to be a cleric. The head of the parliament doesn't have to be from clergy either. The same goes to the Army and even the IRGC. None of the commanders of the IRGC are clerics. Even the Supreme Leader who has to be a cleric is indirectly elected by people through the Council of Experts. A council of Islamic clerics whose members are directly elected by people provincially.

They are not ethnically Arabs. They are linked to the Imams in some way. Just because a person was linked to the House of Muhammad 1400 years ago that doesn't make them ethnically Arab.

China is not involved in the chaos in the Middle East. They are focused on their own internal growth. The US supports Israel and has a history of interference in the region. Israel is a far bigger threat than Turkey. We have our differences with Turkey, but Turkey is a rational player and our countries have always found a way to overcome our differences and live in peace. Republic of Azerbaijan is not a threat to us. Iran and Turkey are rivals, but they do not threaten each other for strategic reasons and because they know that they both are capable of hurting each other.

Are you seriously comparing Iran in 1970s to Saudi Arabia in 2020? Is that a joke? Comparing 50 years ago to now?! lol Obviously, I was comparing Iran in 1970s to the Middle East and North Africa in 1970s. You can't compare the standards of living in 1970s to now even for the same country.

The Shah was a very smart person but he was overthrown because Iranians wanted independence from the Western influence in Iran. If Saudi Arabians one day want the same thing, I am sure that the Saudi family will be overthrown in a matter of weeks or months.

We do not want you to cut your ties with Western countries. We want you to stop following what they dictate and help them advance their politics in the region. That's very different. We want you to act independently based on what is good for all of us, not what is good for them because you need them. And as your neighbor, that's a very reasonable request.

So what? Iran used to stone people to death until not long ago while such a thing has not occurred in KSA for decades and you cannot find any such footage from KSA (unlike beheadings) while you can find such videos from Iran.

KSA beheads or shots people (in public and non-public) while Iran hangs people with cranes in public. What is the difference? A beheading with a sword is one of the most quick and humane ways to go and also shows the seriousness of the crime and serves its purpose to scare away potential criminals.

There is no such thing as Wahhabism and every main sect in Islam (whether Sunni or Shia) is indigenous to KSA and non-Hanbalis are the majority in KSA (Shafi's and Malikis mainly) while the Shia minority are divided between Twelvers, Ismailis and Zaydis.

Anyway MbS is in power, there is not much so-called "Wahhabism" left.

Iran a democracy? You have to be joking. Your head of state and the ones that decides everything (at the end of the day) is the Supreme Leader. That and your Mullah/clergy equivalent of our Allegiance Council. Your parliament is equal to our Shura Council with the exception of you having a few political parties and politicians who must be approved by the Supreme Leader and his council before running and most of the time the end result is decided by the Supreme Leader and the IRGC who de facto rules the country and dominates the economy, military etc. Rouhani on his own has little to no power. Just a figurehead.

Much like our ministers etc. who can be sacked and replaced by the king at will.

In any case, is this a competition of who is more "democratic" or what? I personally am not in favor of Western democracy and I thought that you were against Western involvement and democracy is a Western concept after all.

If they are paternally Arab, they are ethnically Arab. Ethnicity in Arab culture (I imagine Iranian too) passes down from father to son. Last time I checked there are entire documentaries that talk about how the ancestors of Khomeini, Khamenei etc. migrated from KSA and the Arab world to Iran not many generations ago. The Safavids importing numerous Arab Shia clergy is documented in history as well. Those people tended and tend to intermarry with each other.

Arab Shia Ulema
After the conquest, Ismail began transforming the religious landscape of Iran by imposing Twelver Shiism on the populace. Since most of the population embraced Sunni Islam and since an educated version of Shiism was scarce in Iran at the time, Ismail imported a new Shia Ulama corps from traditional Shiite centers of the Arabic speaking lands, largely from Jabal Amil (of Southern Lebanon), Mount Lebanon, Syria, Eastern Arabia and Southern Iraq in order to create a state clergy.[38][39][40][41]Ismail offered them land and money in return for loyalty. These scholars taught the doctrine of Twelver Shiism and made it accessible to the population and energetically encouraged conversion to Shiism.[35][42][43][44] To emphasize how scarce Twelver Shiism was then to be found in Iran, a chronicler tells us that only one Shia text could be found in Ismail's capital Tabriz.[45] Thus it is questionable whether Ismail and his followers could have succeeded in forcing a whole people to adopt a new faith without the support of the Arab Shiite scholars.[37] The rulers of Safavid Persia also invited these foreign Shiite religious scholars to their court in order to provide legitimacy for their own rule over Persia.[46]

Abbas I of Persia, during his reign, also imported more Arab Shia Ulama to Iran, built religious institutions for them, including many Madrasahs (religious schools) and successfully persuaded them to participate in the government, which they had shunned in the past (following the Hidden imam doctrine).[47]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam#Arab_Shia_Ulama

Then it has nothing to do with who country x or y in the region is allied to if NATO Turkey and Pro-Israel Azerbaijan is no problem. It is only a problem if KSA or the GCC or Arab states (Egypt etc.) have relations with the West or what?

Quite a contradiction as you clearly stated that you want Western interference to leave the region, I guess this entails that the same regional countries end their ties to the West.

That is why I wrote to you that it makes ZERO sense to compare MbS with Pahlavi and what he did in the 1970's in Iran with what MbS is doing in 2020. For starters, MbS was born and breed in KSA. He never left KSA. Unlike the Shah that was educated abroad and loved everything that was not Iranian and who was totally sold in the West to the extend that he tried to turn Iran into a Las Vegas. No such thing occurs in KSA. The House of Saudi have ruled parts of KSA (Najd) almost continuously for 300 years. They have intermarried with all the leading noble families in KSA, most powerful clans and tribes etc. You can't compare that with the Shah whose father was an ordinary peasant (soldier) who proclaimed himself as the Shah overnight in 1925. To put it simple, the House of Saud knows the "climate" of KSA and how far they can go with their reforms before endangering themselves (potentially). If not, they would not have survived this long because if the people want a leader gone (truly), he will be toppled. Just like widespread criticism of King Saud and his corruption/wastefulness, lead to the House of Saud being forced to take action and remove him from power because they knew that they risked their power if he had ruled longer while being so wasteful. The wastefulness of the king Fahd era has also largely ended. The actions of MbS (famous Hotel Ritz incident) also proves it as well as the economy of the region after the oil prices fell. A new reality has emerged which is why KSA is not scoring as bad corruption wise as most Muslim/developing nations as every international list proves and the corruption index.

We look at independent very differently. Using your logic Japan and South Korea are not independent while North Korea is. Similarly KSA is not independent but Iran is. 99.9% of all people in the world would prefer to live in those so-called non-independent nations. That is the reality.

KSA has acted against the West on numerous fronts since the West entered the region in fact. If not for the West, the Saudi Arabian Ikhwan would have conquered Kuwait, Jordan, UAE, Bahrain, most of Oman, Southern Iraq etc. KSA has been deifying the West in terms of internal affairs since always despite constant talk of democracy, reforms etc. KSA (in your own words) used to support Islamic causes often contrary to Western interests. KSA (people) continued to support and fund the Iraqi insurgency in Iraq that killed 1000's of US soldiers. KSA was behind the oil embargo on the US and West that crippled their economies. KSA was on the opposite end in the Israeli conflicts. KSA was openly against the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. The illusion of KSA and the West somehow being aligned on every front is an illusion. In fact we are drifting apart more and more by each day while getting closer to China and other emerging powers. Even Russia too.

But let us leave out third parties whether outsiders or regional ones. What I wrote initially, some kind of understanding being found, should be the priority. We won't ever agree with everything either. Our two peoples look at the region way too different for that to occur. For starters we look at the Arab world as our own backyard while your regime has expansionist ambitions in the same region. That will always clash. There are sectarian differences (for the religious lot) and then there are political ones. Of course not different to any relationship where there will always be some differences but nothing that can't eventually be solved for the greater good and I don't think that this can only be reduced to Western involvement in the region or not. It is much bigger than that. Remove the West, and I don't think that the region (currently) will stop conspiring against each other.

Anyway disagreements aside, nice talking to you.

 

[Tumba]

I always thought S-400 for F-35 ... pretty stupid deal...
Although India is also buying this but India was not having any good offers from USA...
S-400 is passive defense system can never match Active air defense provided by stealth tech.
Turkey should make peace with USA... without western support ... tech transfer will put a halt on turk defense industry.

 

[Pandora]

What surrender? Are you really just basing your entire argument on a title?

I should remind people, twitter is not a good source for any sort of verifiable information.

This very much real. That huge cock fight in Turkish parliament was mainly due to this cease fire agreement. Anyways Turkey has no choice in the matter they have been shunned by US and EU meaning no NATO backup for them. Russia is their only friend from now onwards.

 

[Arian]

So what? Iran used to stone people to death until not long ago while such a thing has not occurred in KSA for decades and you cannot find any such footage from KSA (unlike beheadings) while you can find such videos from Iran.

KSA beheads or shots people (in public and non-public) while Iran hangs people with cranes in public. What is the difference? A beheading with a sword is one of the most quick and humane ways to go and also shows the seriousness of the crime and serves its purpose to scare away potential criminals.

There is no such thing as Wahhabism and every main sect in Islam (whether Sunni or Shia) is indigenous to KSA and non-Hanbalis are the majority in KSA (Shafi's and Malikis mainly) while the Shia minority are divided between Twelvers, Ismailis and Zaydis.

Anyway MbS is in power, there is not much so-called "Wahhabism" left.

Iran a democracy? You have to be joking. Your head of state and the ones that decides everything (at the end of the day) is the Supreme Leader. That and your Mullah/clergy equivalent of our Allegiance Council. Your parliament is equal to our Shura Council with the exception of you having a few political parties and politicians who must be approved by the Supreme Leader and his council before running and most of the time the end result is decided by the Supreme Leader and the IRGC who de facto rules the country and dominates the economy, military etc. Rouhani on his own has little to no power. Just a figurehead.

Much like our ministers etc. who can be sacked and replaced by the king at will.

In any case, is this a competition of who is more "democratic" or what? I personally am not in favor of Western democracy and I thought that you were against Western involvement and democracy is a Western concept after all.

If they are paternally Arab, they are ethnically Arab. Ethnicity in Arab culture (I imagine Iranian too) passed down from father to son. Last time I checked there are entire documentaries that talk about how the ancestors of Khomeini, Khamenei etc. migrated from KSA and the Arab world to Iran not many generations ago. The Safavids importing numerous Arab Shia clergy is documented in history as well. Those people tended and tend to intermarry with each other.

Arab Shia Ulema
After the conquest, Ismail began transforming the religious landscape of Iran by imposing Twelver Shiism on the populace. Since most of the population embraced Sunni Islam and since an educated version of Shiism was scarce in Iran at the time, Ismail imported a new Shia Ulama corps from traditional Shiite centers of the Arabic speaking lands, largely from Jabal Amil (of Southern Lebanon), Mount Lebanon, Syria, Eastern Arabia and Southern Iraq in order to create a state clergy.[38][39][40][41]Ismail offered them land and money in return for loyalty. These scholars taught the doctrine of Twelver Shiism and made it accessible to the population and energetically encouraged conversion to Shiism.[35][42][43][44] To emphasize how scarce Twelver Shiism was then to be found in Iran, a chronicler tells us that only one Shia text could be found in Ismail's capital Tabriz.[45] Thus it is questionable whether Ismail and his followers could have succeeded in forcing a whole people to adopt a new faith without the support of the Arab Shiite scholars.[37] The rulers of Safavid Persia also invited these foreign Shiite religious scholars to their court in order to provide legitimacy for their own rule over Persia.[46]

Abbas I of Persia, during his reign, also imported more Arab Shia Ulama to Iran, built religious institutions for them, including many Madrasahs (religious schools) and successfully persuaded them to participate in the government, which they had shunned in the past (following the Hidden imam doctrine).[47]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam#Arab_Shia_Ulama

Then it has nothing to do with who country x or y in the region is allied to if NATO Turkey and Pro-Israel Azerbaijan is no problem. It is only a problem if KSA or the GCC or Arab states (Egypt etc.) have relations with the West or what?

Quite a contradiction as you clearly stated that you want Western interference to leave the region, I guess this entails that the same regional countries end their ties to the West.

That is why I wrote to you that it makes ZERO sense to compare MbS with Pahlavi and what he did in the 1970's in Iran with what MbS is doing in 2020. For starters, MbS was born and breed in KSA. He never left KSA. Unlike the Shah that was educated abroad and loved everything that was not Iranian and who was totally sold in the West to the extend that he tried to turn Iran into a Las Vegas. No such thing occurs in KSA. The House of Saudi have ruled parts of KSA (Najd) almost continuously for 300 years. They have intermarried with all the leading noble families in KSA, most powerful clans and tribes etc. You can't compare that with the Shah whose father was an ordinary peasant (soldier) who proclaimed himself as the Shah overnight in 1925.

We look at independent very differently. Using your logic Japan and South Korea are not independent while North Korea is. Similarly KSA is not independent but Iran is. 99.9% of all people in the world would prefer to live in those so-called non-independent people. That is the reality.

KSA has acted against the West on numerous fronts since the West entered the region in fact. If not for the West, the Saudi Arabian Ikhwan would have conquered Kuwait, Jordan, UAE, Bahrain, most of Oman, Southern Iraq etc. KSA has been deifying the West in terms of internal affairs since always despite constant talk of democracy, reforms etc. KSA (in your own words) used to support Islamic causes often contrary to Western interests. KSA (people) continued to support and fund the Iraqi insurgency in Iraq that killed 1000's of US soldiers. KSA was behind the oil embargo on the US and West that crippled their economies. KSA was on the opposite end in the Israeli conflicts. KSA was openly against the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. The illusion of KSA and the West somehow being aligned on every front is an illusion. In fact we are drifting apart more and more by each day while getting closer to China and other emerging powers. Even Russia too.

But let us leave out third parties whether outsiders or regional ones. What I wrote initially, some kind of understanding being found, should be the priority. We won't ever agree with everything either. Our two peoples look at the region way too different for that to occur. For starters we look at the Arab world as our own backyard while your regime has expansionist ambitions in the same region. That will always clash. There are sectarian differences (for the religious lot) and then there are political ones. Of course not different to any relationship where there will always be some differences but nothing that can't eventually be solved for the greater good and I don't think that this can only be reduced to Western involvement in the region or not. It is much bigger than that. Remove the West, and I don't think that the region (currently) will stop conspiring against each other.

Anyway disagreements aside, nice talking to you.

Iran's judiciary system has denied executing any stoning sentence and no such sentence has ever been approved by the Supreme Court. Many of the films made about this regarding Iran were in fact filmed in Afghanistan by Taliban and the timeline of most of those films happen to be after the US invasion of Afghanistan. As for Saudi Arabia, in 2017, you sentenced a Sri Lankan woman to death by stoning. Here's the link: https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/11/28/saudis-sentence-woman-to-stoning-death

Yes, Iran is a democracy with theocratic elements as I said. The Supreme Leader is indirectly elected by the people. People elect the members of the Council of Experts province by province and then they elect the Supreme Leader. This is how Khamenei was elected after Khomeini's death. The Council of Experts can overthrow the Supreme Leader and replace him if they think he is no longer fit.

Iranians elect their president which runs the government. Khamenei was against the JCPOA from the very beginning and rightly believed that it was a trap by the US, yet it happened against his will after Rouhani took the office. Iranians elect their parliament members.

Khamenei cannot change the name of Iran to Khamenei Persia. But the Saudi royal family has changed Arabia into Saudi Arabia, like it is their property. Meanwhile, The Queen of the United Kingdom enjoys as much authority in the UK as the Supreme Leader in Iran. She literally dissolved the UK parliament few months ago while Khamenei has never publicly used his constitutional power. Does that make the UK undemocratic too?

You have a weird logic. So, because someone was linked to the House of Muhammad 1400 years ago, he is an Arab now? In that case all people in Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, Eastern provinces of Arabia are Iranian because at some point they had an Iranian father and belonged to Iran. Ethnicity is not something that goes back to thousand years ago and it depends on both parents. If you consider 1400 years ago as "not many generations ago", I don't know what to say. For me, not many generations ago means two or three generations. Not a hundred generations.

Sorry, MBS doesn't want to turn Saudi Arabia into a Las Vegas style country? Are you serious? Is that why Saudi Arabia is paying hundreds of millions of dollars to host sporting events like WWE and for American media to advertise it? Is that why MBS cares so much about an American rapper like Lil Wayne to present him with gifts costing over 100K?

Japan and South Korea are not in a region where people are tearing each other apart, millions have been displaced, millions have lost their lives and nobody knows when ongoing civil wars in the region will end. Apples and oranges.

Anyway, I think we have made all our points. The main point is that the Middle East needs stability more than ever now. The situation in Palestine, Syria and Yemen need to stop and change. This region will not experience a sustainable growth if regional conflicts and decade old wars do not stop. Westerns want perpetual war in the Middle East to keep us back and loot our energy resources. They want us to stay busy with each other. If you and I agree on this, then that's all that we need to agree on.

Thanks. It was nice talking to you too.

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

Iran's judiciary system has denied executing any stoning. Many of the films made about this regarding Iran were in fact filmed in Afghanistan under Taliban. As for Saudi Arabia, in 2017, you sentenced a Sri Lankan woman to death by stoning. Here's the link: https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/11/28/saudis-sentence-woman-to-stoning-death

Yes, Iran is a democracy with theocratic elements as I said. The Supreme Leader is indirectly elected by the people. People elect the members of the Council of Experts province by province and then they elect the Supreme Leader. This is how Khamenei was elected. The Council of Experts can overthrow the Supreme Leader and replace him if they think he is no longer fit.

Iranians elect their president which runs the government. Khamenei was against the JCPOA from the very beginning and rightly believed that it was a trap by the US, yet it happened against his will after Rouhani took the office. Iranians elect their parliament members.

Khamenei cannot change the name of Iran to Khamenei Persia. But the Saudi royal family has changed Arabia into Saudi Arabia, like it is their property. Meanwhile, The Queen of the United Kingdom enjoys as much authority in the UK as the Supreme Leader in Iran. She literally dissolved the UK parliament few months ago while Khamenei has never publicly used his power. Does that make the UK undemocratic?

You have a weird logic. So, because someone was linked to the House of Muhammad 1400 years ago, he is an Arab now? In that case all people in Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, Eastern provinces of Arabia are Iranian because at some point they had an Iranian father. Ethnicity is not something that goes back to thousand years ago and it depends on both parents. If you consider 1400 years ago as "not many generations ago", I don't know what to say. For me, not many generations ago means two or three generations. Not a hundred generations.

Sorry, MBS doesn't want to turn Saudi Arabia into a Las Vegas style country? Are you serious? Is that why you are trying so hard to host sporting events like WWE and pay American media to advertise it? Is that why you care so much about an American rapper like Lil Wayne to present him with gifts over 100K?

Japan and South Korea are not in a region where people are tearing each other apart, millions have been displaced, millions have lost their lives and nobody knows when ongoing civil wars in the region will end. Apples and oranges.

Anyway, I think we have made all our points. The main point is that the Middle East needs stability more than ever now. The situation in Syria and Yemen need to stop and change. This region will not experience a sustainable growth if regional conflicts do not stop. Westerns want perpetual war in the Middle East to keep us back. They want us to stay busy with each other. If we agree on this, then that's all that we need to agree on.

Thanks. It was nice talking to you too.

Never executed. I dare anyone to find footage or photos from KSA of a stoning. Just like amputations in KSA in the past 50 years can be counted on 1 hand unlike in Iran. Beheadings are a different matter and I support that tradition as it is largely a humane way to go for the worst of criminals, has the necessary graphic intention of scaring potential criminals etc. Is cheap as well. A honorable way to go as well traditionally. For instance beheading was reserved for nobles in Europe while hanging for commoners as that was seen as a lesser honorable way to go. Sadly the executioners are mostly Afro-Arabs and it is a tradition that runs in the family (often) and fewer and fewer chose this trade so KSA is going to shot people due to lack of executioners. Already occurring.

As for those videos, they were from Iran. You can find them online but I am obviously not going to post them. They are from the 1980's and 1990's. You cannot confuse Iran for Afghanistan either if you are familiar with the region.

Who elected Khomeini, a guy that has been ruling Iran for 30 years? What is the point of a so-called democracy if the same Supreme Leader and his Mullah council (that elected him in the first place and which he controls) are the ones ruling and taking all the decisions? That and those running for office needing to be approved by the same council and following the "party line"? That is called a sham.

In any case KSA never claimed to be a democracy and my preferred system of governance is a meritocracy and not the tyranny of the masses of which most are clueless by large in every country. Every system has good and bad elements and each country has its own distinctive system and traditions. KSA is a country where people majlids play an enormous role where ruler/representative of ruler and people met in person weekly and find common solutions.

JCPOA was in the interest of Iran (regime as well) so obviously Khamenei approved of the negotiations as he had nothing to lose. He gave it a try.

What are you blabbering about? The people of Eastern Arabia were alway Arabians/Arabs/Semitic people. As were all the indigenous pre-Islamic civilizations and Islamic dynasties. Some Iranian migrants (many of whom are Iranian Arabs and in general Southern Iranians who cluster genetically with neighboring Arabs, surprise, surprise) mixing does not make them Iranian. Using that logic half of Iran is Arab.

We were talking about people who have a documented ancestry (paternal) to Arab countries, who have Arab surnames and who proudly proclaim their ancestry. Not with people who might have a great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather that happened to originate from the Arab world or grandmother somewhere down the line.

It is comparable to people of Iranian origins (Iranian Arabs, Persians, Lurs, Iranian Baloch) whose ancestors migrated from Iran to say Bahrain or Kuwait generations ago. Paternally they are Iranian but obviously most of them have intermarried with local Arabs and adopted an Arab identity. Does not change their paternal ancestry. In any case Southern/Western Iran and Eastern Arabia and parts of Iraq have been intermarrying for a long time so it is not very strange.

In what world did those Arab families migrate to Iran 1400 years ago when I just posted a ling with several references that talk about them being imported by the Safavids 500-300 years ago? That is merely 9-15 generations ago on average.

Hosting WWE (we also hosted Dakar Rally, the Spanish Super Cup, Italian Super Cup, cycling, international golf and tennis tournaments - none of them have anything to do with the US) and a few US singers equals wanting to turn into a Las Vegas? While hosting 100's of Arab, Saudi Arabian singers etc. as well and singers from across the world. No, it is called opening up to the world.

We even hosted some Iranian singers recently in the ancient Al-Ula heritage site.

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/li...c-Persian-Night-in-Saudi-Arabia-s-al-Ula.html

Ironically all those Iranian singers are banned from singing in Iran.

They were not long ago and that region of the world was much more bloody than our region has been since WW2. Most of our region is peaceful as well. Not every country is burning.

I agree with your main point, as well as the West not always having the best role in the region but remember that the faults lie within our own regimes and the people supporting them. So the solution is in our own hands by large.

 

[type93]

turkey surrenders!

 

[That Guy]

This very much real. That huge cock fight in Turkish parliament was mainly due to this cease fire agreement. Anyways Turkey has no choice in the matter they have been shunned by US and EU meaning no NATO backup for them. Russia is their only friend from now onwards.

Okay, so first if all, NATO/EU/US did NOT shunt Turkey. This is a ridiculous statement to make, and far from the truth. The parliament brawl, regardless of its cause, has no affect on anything on the ground.

Russia is not turkey's friend, russia and turkey have always been rivals, and they will continue to be rivals. This ceasefire likely has a bigger purpose than what either side is willing to openly take about. I'm willing to wager that it was russia that started talking about a ceasefire, after turkey started to really get serious about retaliation against syrian forces.

I'm convinced that Turkey is gonna use this as an opportunity to consolidate itself into syria.

 

[Arian]

Never executed. I dare anyone to find footage or photos from KSA of a stoning. Just like amputations in KSA in the past 50 years can be counted on 1 hand unlike in Iran. Beheadings are a different matter and I support that tradition as it is largely a humane way to go for the worst of criminals, has the necessary graphic intention of scaring potential criminals etc. A honorable way to go as well traditionally. For instance beheading was reserved for nobles in Europe while hanging for commoners as that was seen as a lesser honorable way to go.

As for those videos, they were from Iran. You can find them online but I am obviously not going to post them. They are from the 1980's and 1990's. You cannot confuse Iran for Afghanistan either if you are familiar with the region.

Who elected Khomeini, a guy that has been ruling Iran for 30 years? What is the point of a so-called democracy if the same Supreme Leader and his Mullah council (that elected him in the first place and which he controls) are the ones ruling and taking all the decisions? That and those running for office needing to be approved by the same council and following the "party line"? That is called a sham.

In any case KSA never claimed to be a democracy and my preferred system of governance is a meritocracy and not the tyranny of the masses of which most are clueless by large in every country. Every system has good and bad elements and each country has its own distinctive system and traditions. KSA is a country where people majlids play an enormous role where ruler/representative of ruler and people met in person weekly and find common solutions.

JCPOA was in the interest of Iran (regime as well) so obviously Khamenei approved of the negotiations as he had nothing to lose. He gave it a try.

What are you blabbering about? The people of Eastern Arabia were alway Arabians/Arabs/Semitic people. As were all the indigenous pre-Islamic civilizations and Islamic dynasties. Some Iranian migrants (many of whom are Iranian Arabs and in general Southern Iranians who cluster genetically with neighboring Arabs, surprise, surprise) mixing does not make them Iranian. Using that logic half of Iran is Arab.

We were talking about people who have a documented ancestry (paternal) to Arab countries, who have Arab surnames and who proudly proclaim their ancestry. Not with people who might have a great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather that happened to originate from the Arab world or grandmother somewhere down the line.

It is comparable to people of Iranian origins (Iranian Arabs, Persians, Lurs, Iranian Baloch) whose ancestors migrated from Iran to say Bahrain or Kuwait generations ago. Paternally they are Iranian but obviously most of them have intermarried with local Arabs and adopted an Arab identity. Does not change their paternal ancestry. In any case Southern/Western Iran and Eastern Arabia and parts of Iraq have been intermarrying for a long time so it is not very strange.

In what world did those Arab families migrate to Iran 1400 years ago when I just posted a ling with several references that talk about them being imported by the Safavids 500-300 years ago? That is merely 9-15 generations ago on average.

Hosting WWE (we also hosted Dakar Rally, the Spanish Super Cup, Italian Super Cup, cycling, international golf and tennis tournaments - none of them have anything to do with the US) and a few US singers equals wanting to turn into a Las Vegas? While hosting 100's of Arab, Saudi Arabian singers etc. as well and singers from across the world. No, it is called opening up to the world.

We even hosted some Iranian singers recently in the ancient Al-Ula heritage site.

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/li...c-Persian-Night-in-Saudi-Arabia-s-al-Ula.html

Ironically all those Iranian singers are banned from sinning in Iran.

They were not long ago and that region of the world was much more bloody than our region has been since WW2. Most of our region is peaceful as well. Not every country is burning.

I agree with your main point, as well as the West not always having the best role in the region but remember that the faults lie within our own regimes and the people supporting them. So the solution is in our own hands by large.

Believe it or not, you can confuse rural Iran and Persian speaking parts of Afghanistan easily. Just a simple search on Google brings up tens of records about Kenyan, Sri Lanka, Saudi and women from other nationalities receiving death by stoning sentences in Saudi Arabia. Many of these sentences are recent. I also dare you to find a footage of stoning executed in Iran that can be verified to have happened inside Iran officially.

As for Khomeini, he enjoyed incredible popular support that he turned him into the leader of the 1979 revolution. It's like asking who elected Gandhi? He was the leader of the revolution for God's sake. lol Khomeini held a referendum for the Iranian 1979 constitution. 98% of Iranians at the time voted in favor of the new constitution because they loved Khomeini. You can't say that about the Saudi king. Can you?

Khamenei said it many times that he believed the JCPOA to be a trap. The IRGC believed it to be a trap. All major IRGC commanders spoke against it even while it was being negotiated. Every hardliner or conservative politician in Iran fundamentally disagreed with the deal, newspapers close to the IRGC and the Supreme Leader wrote against it and yet it was signed by the Foreign Minister and approved by the parliament.

So if a person had a Semitic father hundreds of years ago that makes him Semitic forever. LOL That's ridiculous. Using that logic, more than half of the Middle East and North Africa are Persian as Persia ruled over the Middle East for centuries. Your logic is really weird. Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE belonged to Iran not very long ago. Many of them have Persian fathers and still understand Persian. I have met many such people in Dubai alone and once they realized I was Iranian they approached me and talked to me in Persian.

You do realize that the Imams lived 1200 years ago or more. Right? Ali lived 1400 years ago. Even if we consider what you said about the Safavid empire, 10 generations ago is too far for determining a person's ethnicity.

The fact that you're willing to spend 100 of million dollars to host a sport event that is more popular in the US than Saudi Arabia proves that. As for the Shah, the Shah also held thousands of events that were Iranian or related to regional countries. So, what's your point? As for those singers, they are not banned from singing in Iran. Even one of those singers (Shadmehr) has long wanted to return to Iran and nothing is preventing him from returning. They live in Los Angeles and prefer to live there. It's a personal choice.

We are talking about now. Not decades ago. Right now Far East is in peace. It has been mostly like that after the fall of the Japanese empire post-WWII. You know what we are talking about. Don't pretend that you don't know it. The Middle East is in chaos. Far East is not in chaos now. It has been calm for decades. That's the difference.

Then I'm glad you agree with that.

 

[That Guy]

turkey surrenders!

No it didn't.

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

Believe it or not, you can confuse rural Iran and Persian speaking parts of Afghanistan easily. Just a simple search on Google brings up tens of records about Kenyan, Sri Lanka, Saudi and women from other nationalities receiving death by stoning sentences in Saudi Arabia. Many of these sentences are recent. I also dare you to find a footage of stoning executed in Iran that can be verified to have happened inside Iran officially.

As for Khomeini, he enjoyed incredible popular support that he turned him into the leader of the 1979 revolution. It's like asking who elected Gandhi? He was the leader of the revolution for God's sake. lol Khomeini held a referendum for the Iranian 1979 constitution. 98% of Iranians at the time voted in favor of the new constitution because they loved Khomeini. You can't say that about the Saudi king. Can you?

Khamenei said it many times that he believed the JCPOA to be a trap. The IRGC believed it to be a trap. All major IRGC commanders spoke against it even while it was being negotiated. Every hardliner or conservative politician in Iran fundamentally disagreed with the deal, newspapers close to the IRGC and the Supreme Leader wrote against it and yet it was signed by the Foreign Minister and approved by the parliament.

So if a person had a Semitic father hundreds of years ago that makes him Semitic forever. LOL That's ridiculous. Using that logic, more than half of the Middle East and North Africa are Persian as Persia ruled over the Middle East for centuries. Your logic is really weird. Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE belonged to Iran not very long ago. Many of them have Persian fathers and still understand Persian. I have met many such people in Dubai alone and once they realized I was Iranian they approached me and talked to me in Persian.

You do realize that the Imams lived 1200 years ago or more. Right? Ali lived 1400 years ago. Even if we consider what you said about the Safavid empire, 10 generations ago is too far for determining a person's ethnicity.

The fact that you're willing to spend 100 of million dollars to host a sport event that is more popular in the US than Saudi Arabia proves that. As for the Shah, the Shah also held thousands of events that were Iranian or related to regional countries. So, what's your point? As for those singers, they are not banned from singing in Iran. Even one of those singers (Shadmehr) has long wanted to return to Iran and nothing is preventing him from returning. They live in Los Angeles and prefer to live there. It's a personal choice.

We are talking about now. Not decades ago. Right now Far East is in peace. It has been mostly like that after the fall of the Japanese empire post-WWII. You know what we are talking about. Don't pretend that you don't know it. The Middle East is in chaos. Far East is not in chaos now. It has been calm for decades. That's the difference.

Then I'm glad you agree with that.

You don't need to take my own words at face value, just make a good search or research on your own. As for the stoning videos from Iran that I saw, they are definitely not from Afghanistan and were performed in Iran. Linking to them is not allowed so I cannot do that.

I also can easily find graphic photos of amputations from Iran while you cannot do the same thing from KSA.

You, just as well as I know, that those 98% are as accurate as the 99% of Syrians that support Bashar al-Assad supposedly. Neither of KSA or Iran is a democracy, let's end it at that.

Monarchs, throughout all of recorded history, where never elected but came to power through force or good policies which enable them to continue their rule. Ibn Saud who unified modern KSA was a great visionary of his time and prevented further division on the Arabian Peninsula and Arab world and another 5+ Arab countries from emerging. It was a great thing, sadly the Brits stopped the Ikhwan from incorporating Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar, parts of Oman, Jordan and parts of Iraq. We (as Arabs) and the region would have been better off. I still support, like most Arabs, Arab integration.

I was talking about Khamenei. He has been ruling Iran since 1989. Who elected him if not Khomeini and the Mullah council?

Of course since this is part of an internal power play in Iran between conservatives and liberals but everyone knows that the Khamenei and the IRGC have the final word and all the power. Rouhani is just a figurehead (part of the establishment) that was cleared to run by the same people in the first place and who would be removed the second he would act against the interests of Khamenei and the IRGC.

That is not the reality as the Middle East was mostly (to this day) Semitic. Semites were inhabiting the region millennia before the word Iran and Iranian emerged in history. Nor is that accurate as our civilizations and people long predate 2500 years. Genetics disprove of this as well.

Using that logic an area from France in the Northwest to Xinjiang in the East is Arab since Arabs used to rule that region for centuries too. It does not work like that as already explained.

When did UAE and Kuwait ever belong to Iran, lol? Same with Bahrain? Those are ancient Arabian/Semitic lands who were ruled by locals for 95% of recorded history. That is like saying that Iran is Arab because Arabs ruled and conquered all of it. Most of the Iranians (many are Iranian Arabs) are fairly recent migrants much like the Mullah class that rules Iran (those people walking around with black turbans and Arab surnames) are fairly recent arrivals to Iran during the Safavid era as already provided evidence of.

You should be aware of it but the largest Iranian diaspora outside of the US is located in the GCC, mostly in the UAE so no wonder that you met some Iranians there. That does not make them locals or Emiratis.

Equals to me meeting some Shia Arab pilgrim in Iran and thinking that he is a local Iranian Arab.

What 100's of millions of dollars? You are obviously completely unfamiliar with KSA. WWE has been popular in KSA since the 1970's. People used to watch it on VHS back in the day. I personally could care less but this is a part of opening up. Some things you will like, others you will, but you will have the option to watch it live or stay at home just like I had the option to watch concerts in KSA when I last visited or watch football, Dakar Rally, tennis or golf tournaments instead. Or some traditional local concerts.

Just a few days ago the largest falconry gathering in the world was held in KSA.

Well, then the article made a false claims if what you are writing (them not being banned) is true.

BTW did Iran not allow women to enter football stadiums 1-2 years after KSA did it?

Yes, but it is not strange that the very same West that you demonize, is the guarantor of peace in East Asia by having immobilized the expansionist Imperial Japan and by preventing an all-out war in the Korean Peninsula? Food for thought.

 

[Gibbs]

Guys..lets stop counting destroyed drones and tanks for a moment and think of millions of people in this cold in the middle of nowhere..how would any one of us feel if it happened to us.

Turkey has legitimate concerns ..millions of people already in country and millions wanting to come in..and yes Turkish politician helped to cook this soup but what is done is water under the bridge....3 or 4 or 5 million Syrians with no place to go(I have no idea how many by now). Although they are Jihadi and/or Jihadi sympathizers but they are still SYRIAN nationals..they may be head choppers but Syria can not push them out into another country and make this Turkey's problem. ..and Turkey can not invade Syria because of this...If refugees are the real problem then why play games...Allow legitimate Syrian government (the one that some of you hate..I know... but facts on the ground by now) to have control of the syrian borders and both countries with Russia and Iran all pitch in and settle these bad characters in some decent land where they can have hope...hopeless people are dangerous and will cost you alot in the long run....

Most sensible post.. Kudos

 

[riscol]

President Putin knows how to troll the Turks by picking a room with a huge Catherine the Great statue. In the hall there stood a clock with a sculpture dedicated to the Russian soldiers in the penultimate official Russian-Turkish war of 1877-1878.

 

[SQ8]

The turks went into the conflict without thinking it through and paid for it. Unfortunately for Erdogan his ambition was writing checks the Turkish military, economy and diplomatic cadre couldn’t cash.

My god, Turks and Pakistanis truly are brethren; we share similar qualities in our leadership!!

 

[raptor22]

War is over means less death ... diplomacy & logic have been given a chance it means peace.
The best way for Syria as Iran proposed back in 2012 "Let's Syrian decide" ...

 

[riscol]

The Turkish Army is basically very weak, especially after the 2016 failed coup which led Erdogan to replace the coup plotters with incapable commanders. What Erdogan demanded from the Syrians were brushed aside during meeting in Moscow as he was summoned over by Putin. Erdogan does not have any bargaining power that's the kind of position he is in. In reality he got himself cornered with no way out. NATO isn't going to join Turkey in this mess, Erdogan failed to have the Russians and Syrians to attack certain Turkish assets which in return could invoke article 5. The Russian airforce bombed dozens of Turks into a one way trip to Allah. Lets not forget that Turkey also lost at least 10 drones lately. Erdogan trying to pressure France and Germany with the flooding of refugees won't work this time. So yeah it's a fools dream trying to revive the Ottoman Empire. Best to pack things up and leave Syria.