Erdogan about secularism

[xenon54 out]

My fellow Türk, these statements are very clear signs of his anti-Islamic views. You have much more.

And you have equally as much, if not more words of him praising Islam such as the following:

» Bir dinin tabiî olması için akla, fenne, ilme ve mantığa uygun olması lazımdır.

» Büyük dinimiz çalışmayanın insanlıkla hiç ilgisi olmadığını bildiriyor. Bazı kimseler çağdaş olmayı kâfir olmak sayıyorlar. Asıl küfür onların bu zannıdır. Bu yanlış tefsiri yapanların maksadı İslâmların kâfirlere esir olmasını istemek değil de nedir? Her sarıklıyı hoca sanmayın, hoca olmak sarıkla değil, dimağladır.

» Arkadaşlar, efendiler ve ey millet, iyi biliniz ki, Türkiye Cumhuriyeti şeyhler, dervişler, müritler, meczuplar memleketi olamaz. En doğru, en hakiki tarikat, medeniyet tarikatıdır.

» Sarık ve cüppeyle artık dünyada muvaffak olmanın imkanı yoktur. Yaptığımız muazzam inkılaplarla medeni bir millet olduğumuzu cihana ispat ettik.

» Masum halka beş vakit namazdan başka, geceleri de fazla namaz kılmayı vaiz ve nasihat etmek belki de ömründe hiç namaz kılmamış olan bir politikacı tarafından olursa bu hareketin hedefi anlaşılmaz olur mu?

» Bir takım şeyhlerin, dedelerin, seyyitlerin, çelebilerin, babaların, emirlerin arkasından sürüklenen ve falcılara, büyücülere, üfürükçülere, muskacılara talih ve hayatlarını emanet eden insanlardan mürekkep bir kütleye, medeni bir bir millet nazariyle bakılabilir mi?

» Herhalde alemde bir hak vardır ve hak kuvvetin üstündedir.

» Bütün zorba hükümdarlar hep dini alet edindiler; Hakiki ulema, dini bütün alimler hiçbir vakit bu zorba hükümdarlara boyun eğmediler. Fakat gerçekte alim olmamakla beraber, sırf o kılıkta bulundukları için alim sanılan, çıkarına düşkün haris ve imansız bir takım hocalar da vardır. Hükümdarlar işte bunları ele aldılar ve işte bunlar dine uygundur diye fetva verdiler. Gerektikçe yanlış hadisler uydurmaktan çekinmediler. Gerçek ve imanlı ulema her vakit her devirde bunların kinine hedef oldu.

» İlk olarak Kuran’ın dilimize çevrilmesini emrettim. Bu da ilk defa olarak Türkçe‘ye çevriliyor.

» Bizim devlet idaresinde takip ettiğimiz prensipleri, gökten indiği sanılan kitapların dogmalarıyla asla bir tutmamalıdır. Biz, ilhamlarımızı, gökten ve gaipten değil, doğrudan doğruya hayattan almış bulunuyoruz.

» Milletimiz daha da dindar olmalıdır diyorum.Ama bütün sadelik ve güzelliği ile.Dinime,bizzat gerçeğe nasıl inanıyorsam buna da öyle inanıyorum.Şuura aykırı ilerlemeye engel hiçbir şey ihtiva etmiyor.

» Türkiye Cumhuriyetinde herkes Allah’a istediği gibi ibadet eder. Türk Cumhuriyetinin resmi dini yoktur. Türkiye’de bir kimsenin fikirlerini, zorla başkalarına kabul ettirmeye kalkışacak kimse yoktur ve buna müsaade edilemez.

» Efendiler, camiler birbirimizin yüzüne bakmaksızın yatıp kalkmak için yapılmamıştır. Camiler itaat ve ibadet ile beraber din ve dünya için neler yapmak lazım geldiğini düşünmek yani meşveret için yapılmıştır. Millet islerinde her ferdin zihni başlıbaşına faaliyette bulunmak elzemdir.

» Fıkıhtaki zamanın değişmesiyle hükümlerin değişmesi inkar olunamaz kaidesi adalet siyasetimizin temel taşıdır.

» Şu anda batıl itikatlardan oluşan ikinci bir din mevcuttur.Fakat bu cahiller sırası gelince aydınlatılacaktır.

» Din bir vicdan meselesidir. Herkes vicdanının emrine uymakta serbesttir. Biz dine saygı gösteririz. Düşünüşe ve düşünceye muhalif değiliz. Biz sadece din işlerini, millet ve devlet işleriyle karıştırmamaya çalışıyor, kasde ve fiile dayanan taassupkar hareketlerden sakınıyoruz.

» Tarihimiz en mutlu dönemi, hükümdarlarımızın halife olmadıkları zamandır.

» Milletimiz din ve dil gibi kuvvetli iki fazilete maliktir. Bu faziletleri hiçbir kuvvet, milletimizin kalb ve vicdanından çekip alamamıştır ve alamaz.

» Peygamberimiz tilmizlerine dünya milletlerine İslamiyeti kabul ettirmelerini emretti, bu milletlerin hükümeti başına geçmelerini emretmedi. Peygamberin zihninden asla böyle bir fikir geçmemiştir.

» Tekkeler de behemahal kapatılmalıdır. Türkiye Cumhuriyeti her şubede irsatlarda bulunacak kudreti haizdir. Hiçbirimiz tekkelerin irsadina muhtaç değiliz. Biz medeniyet, ilim ve fenden kuvvet alıyoruz. Başka bir şey tanımıyoruz.

» Bizim dinimiz, milletimize hakir, miskin ve zelil olmayı tavsiye etmez. Tam tersine Allah da, Peygamber de insanların ve milletlerin izzet ve şerefini korumalarını emrediyor.

» İntisap etmekle bahtiyar olduğumuz İslam dinini, asırlardan beri alışılmış olduğu üzere bir siyaset vasıtası mevkiinden kurtarmak ve yükseltmek elzem olduğu hakikatini müşahade ediyoruz. Mukaddes ve lahuti olan inançlarımızı ve vicdanlarımızı çapraşık ve değişken olan ve her türlü menfaat ve ihtirasların tecellisine sahne olan siyasetten ve siyasetle ilgili bütün hususlardan bir an evvel ve kesin olarak kurtarmak, milletin, dünya ve ahiret saadetinin emrettiği bir zarurettir.

It's amusing you are talking about the poet whom wrote our national hymn.

Why is it amusing? It does not matter what M. Akif Ersoy was thinking about Atatürk in the end Istiklal Marsi was accepted as our hymn, if Atatürk was anti islam he would never accept it including the Ottoman Flag.

I don't like to watch Erdogan's video. I know roughly what he might be talking about. I can say that a man of that position will serve more good to himself and to his country's unity if he praises the man who found the republic of Turkey.

But you should because its neither about Erdogan nor about why he is reading it, solely for the words of Atatürk that is supposed to be anti Islam.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Hello my Turkish friends. I am going to avoid making any further posts here. I will continue to read the contents but I don't want to get drawn into internal Turkish politics.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

@Baybars Han

Stop being so aggressive, please. You're effectively disturbing the debate here.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Ok lets look at facts, you say kemalist goverments wanted to erase islam based on what?
-Headscarf ban on public schools was just one of the bans which took effect for all other religious symbols aswell.
-Translating Quran into Turkish was so that people would finally understand what they are reading.
-Ezan in Turkish, well i dont know why, most probably a result of nationalistic policy but i dont see any sign of erasing Islam either.

Does it make sense to you that a goverment that wants to erase Islam publicly funding Mosques and Imams education? To me not really to be honest.
What the kemalist done is closing the way for extremists to use religion for their benefits by;
A) taking responsibility in educating clerics
B) making mosques financially independent from idividuals by publicly funding them
C) preventing corruption of religion by educating people in state funded religious schools

etc. etc.

All of those privileges havent been given to any other religion or sect so how exactly were kemalists erasing Islam, am i missing something here?

Let's make the setting clear first.
The problems of Kemalism becomes understandable if we accept that the formative phase (from about 1870 to 1923) in the development of modern Turkey was a decade totally dominated on the level of politics and public opinion by anti-Christian muslim nationalism. In 1923 Anatolian Muslims managed to secure the continued existence of a state of their own in Anatolia, but from 1923 the kemalist leadership of the Republic broke the bonds of solidarity forged during the preceding ten years and strove for far reaching secularization and for Turkish nationalism and nation building - as opposed to Ottoman Muslim. The switch from Ottoman Muslim tradition to secularization was far too sudden and completely miscalculated and undermined the Anatolian Ottoman values which were deeply ingraved in their culture.

Ataturk and his friends rightfully realized that only a state operated on the basis of European style nationalism could compete with the national states of Europe. Therefore the Kemalist concept of nationalism was firmly based on language, a new synthetic Turkish culture from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire and common purpose. Look at the early speeches of Ataturk, the common theme is --> modernization and reaching "muasir" civilization. Therefore, the unity of language and culture had to constitute the nation replacing Ottoman concepts of "national belonging" = which was mostly based on religion and race. (if you are truly interested in the early phase of Turkish republic i'd recommend any work by Erik Zurcher)

Ok, we got the setting more or less clear, now i will touch on how Ottoman Islamic values were completely disregarded in the formative years of Turkey. The best way to do this in my opinion is to look at how Ataturk dealt with voices inside Turkey that did not belong to his ideological conviction. As you guys probably know, in november 1924 the Progressive Republican Party (PRP) emerged. The party consisted of big names like Kazim Karabekir and Adnan Adivar. However the party was fiercely attacked by Mustafa Kemal and his followers. There were three main accusations. The one most pertinent to this discussion is irtica (religious reaction), however i'll shortly go through the other two accusations before going deeper into the qustion of irtica.

1) The first important accusation/arguement was that the party was in fact not a real party but a creation of oppurtunistic generals and poltiicans (ataturks old comrades) who were jealous of Kemal's success and had been sidelined by him upon the Republic's creation, they were undermined and not kept up to their promise. Instead small names who were younger followers of Kemal took over the most influential positions after the war of independence. Kemal actually talked about this in his nutuk of october 1927, there he describes the creation of PRP as ambitious plot by generals like Karabekir and Adivar.
2) Second argueemnt used at the time was that the progressives were not actually conservatives but crypto Ottoman monarchists. This Ataturk explained to the Time in 21 november 1924.
3) The second arguement ties in to the last and our main issue --> the big black wolf aka the fiercy IRTICA. The accusation levelled against the opposition PRP was that the programme and stance encouraged irtica. This was also the main arguement used by the court when it propsed to the cabinet on 5 May 1925 the closure of PRP. Ultimately the party was closed due to Irtica, something the Turkish Republic experienced again and again since then. Here comes the funnies or tragicomical part. The party was closed due to the party programmes sixth article which advocated respect for religious opinions and beliefs. In this context the party was linked to the infamous insurrection of the Kurdish and fundamentalist uprising of February 1925.

The accusations were mostly grounded in falsehood. If you guys take a look at PRP's party manifesto it's a typical democratic manifesto of its time, however in contrast to Kemalist convictions it emphasizes on gradual change in harmony with the realities of the Turkish Anatolian village dwellers, remember folks, back then a huuge proportion of Turks were villagers with a simple life. And the party manifesto's 6th article which was the reason behind its closure literally says "The party repsects religious beliefs and convictions". For Huseyin Rauf Orbay (one of the party's founders) this was true secularism. Yet it was very different from Keamlist conception of secularism whcih was based on control over religion rather than respect for religion (as you indicated xenon54).

The PRP emphasised normality and respect for individial liberties for its citizens, which was at odds with the Kemalist state who felt that the country was in the midst of a 'social and cultural revolution' (in their own words). We can call the Kemalists the ardent nationalists who needed to increase and concentrate state power to embark on far-reaching social and cultural reforms whereas PRP are the post-independence conservatives who reject further radical social and cultural change, in other words they want to preserve their Ottoman roots while embarking on industrialization and expansion of human rights coupled with other democratic liberties.

I can go on, but i think that's sufficient for now. My keyboard is broken i cant type the n letter withour copy pasting every time.

@Baybars Han

Stop being so aggressive, please. You're effectively disturbing the debate here.

Guys, just ignore the kid. He lacks basic human decency

 

[Selim I]

And you have equally as much, if not more words of him praising Islam such as the following:

» Bir dinin tabiî olması için akla, fenne, ilme ve mantığa uygun olması lazımdır.

» Büyük dinimiz çalışmayanın insanlıkla hiç ilgisi olmadığını bildiriyor. Bazı kimseler çağdaş olmayı kâfir olmak sayıyorlar. Asıl küfür onların bu zannıdır. Bu yanlış tefsiri yapanların maksadı İslâmların kâfirlere esir olmasını istemek değil de nedir? Her sarıklıyı hoca sanmayın, hoca olmak sarıkla değil, dimağladır.

» Arkadaşlar, efendiler ve ey millet, iyi biliniz ki, Türkiye Cumhuriyeti şeyhler, dervişler, müritler, meczuplar memleketi olamaz. En doğru, en hakiki tarikat, medeniyet tarikatıdır.

» Sarık ve cüppeyle artık dünyada muvaffak olmanın imkanı yoktur. Yaptığımız muazzam inkılaplarla medeni bir millet olduğumuzu cihana ispat ettik.

» Masum halka beş vakit namazdan başka, geceleri de fazla namaz kılmayı vaiz ve nasihat etmek belki de ömründe hiç namaz kılmamış olan bir politikacı tarafından olursa bu hareketin hedefi anlaşılmaz olur mu?

» Bir takım şeyhlerin, dedelerin, seyyitlerin, çelebilerin, babaların, emirlerin arkasından sürüklenen ve falcılara, büyücülere, üfürükçülere, muskacılara talih ve hayatlarını emanet eden insanlardan mürekkep bir kütleye, medeni bir bir millet nazariyle bakılabilir mi?

» Herhalde alemde bir hak vardır ve hak kuvvetin üstündedir.

» Bütün zorba hükümdarlar hep dini alet edindiler; Hakiki ulema, dini bütün alimler hiçbir vakit bu zorba hükümdarlara boyun eğmediler. Fakat gerçekte alim olmamakla beraber, sırf o kılıkta bulundukları için alim sanılan, çıkarına düşkün haris ve imansız bir takım hocalar da vardır. Hükümdarlar işte bunları ele aldılar ve işte bunlar dine uygundur diye fetva verdiler. Gerektikçe yanlış hadisler uydurmaktan çekinmediler. Gerçek ve imanlı ulema her vakit her devirde bunların kinine hedef oldu.

» İlk olarak Kuran’ın dilimize çevrilmesini emrettim. Bu da ilk defa olarak Türkçe‘ye çevriliyor.

» Bizim devlet idaresinde takip ettiğimiz prensipleri, gökten indiği sanılan kitapların dogmalarıyla asla bir tutmamalıdır. Biz, ilhamlarımızı, gökten ve gaipten değil, doğrudan doğruya hayattan almış bulunuyoruz.

» Milletimiz daha da dindar olmalıdır diyorum.Ama bütün sadelik ve güzelliği ile.Dinime,bizzat gerçeğe nasıl inanıyorsam buna da öyle inanıyorum.Şuura aykırı ilerlemeye engel hiçbir şey ihtiva etmiyor.

» Türkiye Cumhuriyetinde herkes Allah’a istediği gibi ibadet eder. Türk Cumhuriyetinin resmi dini yoktur. Türkiye’de bir kimsenin fikirlerini, zorla başkalarına kabul ettirmeye kalkışacak kimse yoktur ve buna müsaade edilemez.

» Efendiler, camiler birbirimizin yüzüne bakmaksızın yatıp kalkmak için yapılmamıştır. Camiler itaat ve ibadet ile beraber din ve dünya için neler yapmak lazım geldiğini düşünmek yani meşveret için yapılmıştır. Millet islerinde her ferdin zihni başlıbaşına faaliyette bulunmak elzemdir.

» Fıkıhtaki zamanın değişmesiyle hükümlerin değişmesi inkar olunamaz kaidesi adalet siyasetimizin temel taşıdır.

» Şu anda batıl itikatlardan oluşan ikinci bir din mevcuttur.Fakat bu cahiller sırası gelince aydınlatılacaktır.

» Din bir vicdan meselesidir. Herkes vicdanının emrine uymakta serbesttir. Biz dine saygı gösteririz. Düşünüşe ve düşünceye muhalif değiliz. Biz sadece din işlerini, millet ve devlet işleriyle karıştırmamaya çalışıyor, kasde ve fiile dayanan taassupkar hareketlerden sakınıyoruz.

» Tarihimiz en mutlu dönemi, hükümdarlarımızın halife olmadıkları zamandır.

» Milletimiz din ve dil gibi kuvvetli iki fazilete maliktir. Bu faziletleri hiçbir kuvvet, milletimizin kalb ve vicdanından çekip alamamıştır ve alamaz.

» Peygamberimiz tilmizlerine dünya milletlerine İslamiyeti kabul ettirmelerini emretti, bu milletlerin hükümeti başına geçmelerini emretmedi. Peygamberin zihninden asla böyle bir fikir geçmemiştir.

» Tekkeler de behemahal kapatılmalıdır. Türkiye Cumhuriyeti her şubede irsatlarda bulunacak kudreti haizdir. Hiçbirimiz tekkelerin irsadina muhtaç değiliz. Biz medeniyet, ilim ve fenden kuvvet alıyoruz. Başka bir şey tanımıyoruz.

» Bizim dinimiz, milletimize hakir, miskin ve zelil olmayı tavsiye etmez. Tam tersine Allah da, Peygamber de insanların ve milletlerin izzet ve şerefini korumalarını emrediyor.

» İntisap etmekle bahtiyar olduğumuz İslam dinini, asırlardan beri alışılmış olduğu üzere bir siyaset vasıtası mevkiinden kurtarmak ve yükseltmek elzem olduğu hakikatini müşahade ediyoruz. Mukaddes ve lahuti olan inançlarımızı ve vicdanlarımızı çapraşık ve değişken olan ve her türlü menfaat ve ihtirasların tecellisine sahne olan siyasetten ve siyasetle ilgili bütün hususlardan bir an evvel ve kesin olarak kurtarmak, milletin, dünya ve ahiret saadetinin emrettiği bir zarurettir.


Why is it amusing? It does not matter what M. Akif Ersoy was thinking about Atatürk in the end Istiklal Marsi was accepted as our hymn, if Atatürk was anti islam he would never accept it including the Ottoman Flag.


But you should because its neither about Erdogan nor about why he is reading it, solely for the words of Atatürk that is supposed to be anti Islam.

Im currently on my phone, but all i can say is that praising words towards Islam doesn't make him pro Islamic person not a Muslim if he has words against Islamic belief - which he clearly has as i stated.

I also stated this this man is a man of strategy. He knows what to speak and where. He knows how to make power using Islam in his agenda.

Last point is, if looked at his anti Islamic words, they all mostly appear at the ends of his reign period. Which is what must be focused on. The man clearly changed his views towards Islam at around after 1930s.

Akif Ersoy, didn't firstly even want to participate in joining the contest of composing the national anthem, but later he got convinced because he loved his nation, Islamic and Turkish identity.

I have more to say, but it's a hell to text on phone, and i must go to bed now. C'yall✌

 

[Selim I]

Mods, please ban this Zulkarneyn. He is from denmark and Selim is also his account. He claims selim is his brother . This forum is becoming a joke.

Is that the only comment you can structure when you have no words left?

You're really destroying the quality of this dear section with all your child-level accusations.

Even if you were right, it's still miserable that you select to highlight one single accusation over and over again. A real intelligent man (like most of the rest of the Turkish members) would rather debate the matters, and only a child would repeat his accusations to ignore all the gold corns his counterparts has made in the case of Kemalism.

You really degenerate yourself and this dear Turkish section.

What a tragedy.

@cabatli_53, won't you do anything about this?

 

[xenon54 out]

You guys write a wall of text starting from beginning of time but the question is still not answered or i have missed, can you just give a simple answer why a goverment that wants to erase islam establishes diyanet and gives various privileges to it compared to other religions?

 

[Zulkarneyn]

You guys write a wall of text starting from beginning of time but the question is still not answered or i have missed, can you just give a simple answer why a goverment that wants to erase islam establishes diyanet and gives various privileges to it compared to other religions?

no im not gonna waste my time with you anymore, if you are interested you read what i've written

 

[T-123456]

You guys write a wall of text starting from beginning of time but the question is still not answered or i have missed, can you just give a simple answer why a goverment that wants to erase islam establishes diyanet and gives various privileges to it compared to other religions?

Why do you think this thread is in this section?
They know that this thread in the Turkish section would have been locked already,the only way they can keep insulting Ataturk without consequences.
The same way they do politics in our country,very sneaky.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

you guys are really small, you cant stomach reading about real history but the romaticized version. if you manage to find any insult towards him you are more than welcome to share it with us, but if your knees tremble at the sight of anyone who takes an objective approach to history that just shows how small you are. get your revenge in cay bahcesi with your kindergarten approach to life and get us banned, that's the best you can accomplish here. such misery is seldom seen, i truly pity you

 

[XenoEnsi-14]

get your revenge in cay bahcesi with your kindergarten approach to life and get us banned, that's the best you can accomplish here. such misery is seldom seen, i truly pity you

 

[damm1t]

I don't understand you guys who open secularism to discussion again and again. Don't you see that it's the only way to move forward for us, religion always was a powerful tool to control people. Every single enemy of us used it against us, Brits, French etc. And lastest example is Fetö of Usa. Let people worship as they want and politicians govern the country as it should be. Time is changing, if you wanna stay and strong in the game you should know the rules. About Atatürk era, I admire him. He knew how our people got fooled by using Islam. He did what is the best for the country.

 

[xenon54 out]

no im not gonna waste my time with you anymore, if you are interested you read what i've written

you guys are really small, you cant stomach reading about real history but the romaticized version. if you manage to find any insult towards him you are more than welcome to share it with us, but if your knees tremble at the sight of anyone who takes an objective approach to history that just shows how small you are. get your revenge in cay bahcesi with your kindergarten approach to life and get us banned, that's the best you can accomplish here. such misery is seldom seen, i truly pity you

Oh sorry i thought there was a possibility of a civilized discussion, my bad.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

The problem I see is Kemalism is opposite of Islamism. Both are extremes. The real Gordion knot we need to untangle is how to achieve the balance between the two. I have to admit thus far I have read widely but this goal remain elusive.

I honestly believe that the problem is not with achieving the balance but trying something new. The problem with Islamism is that it's usual governance system gives way too much room for corruption and abuse of power. A ruling elite of the "religious" is bound to fail because let's be honest for every 1,000 Imams only one of them is legitimately religious and sane and for every 100,000 Islamists usually only one of them is legitimately religious and sane.

I think you need to reform Islamism before trying to reach a balance.

I'm pretty sure that is why Ataturk wanted a secular system because a religious one will only get abused.

 

[T-123456]

I honestly believe that the problem is not with achieving the balance but trying something new. The problem with Islamism is that it's usual governance system gives way too much room for corruption and abuse of power. A ruling elite of the "religious" is bound to fail because let's be honest for every 1,000 Imams only one of them is legitimately religious and sane and for every 100,000 Islamists usually only one of them is legitimately religious and sane.

I think you need to reform Islamism before trying to reach a balance.

I'm pretty sure that is why Ataturk wanted a secular system because a religious one will only get abused.

And you are not even a Turk or a think tank.