Enough of army-bashing...now let’s look ahead

[Rafi]

At least this guy should use his true flags.

 

[mehru]

You move on after the Army has taken any corrective steps. CIA officers are being kicked out, no they are getting some more visas, drone attacks won't happen, drone attacks are happening, Nato strikes won't happen, Nato strikes are happening.

At this point, mazeed jootay khanay wali baatein ki hain Army k leaders ne.

Trust me there is an innate desire to forgive the Army and restore its previous glory. But it has to meet us half way. It has to at least come off as trying correct its mistakes and ji hazoori to the US.

Well said. People respect army no matter what happens and there is inner desire to forget and forgive. People want to forget but it's upto PA to show that they are invincible as they were believed to be. In other words, show some change in your strategy. People are disappointed with the army. They don't hate army. Have the army forgotten those small rallies in favour of PA after May incidents? There were no anti army protests. Clearly it shows what people think. Media doesn't effect us neither their criticism. People will see the actions of the army to judge them , not media perceptions.

 

[Rafi]

in two polls one conducted by Pew, and one by Gallop - after the May 2, incidents - the Army's approval rating - was 78% and 75%.

 

[nirreich]

That's a fact to an extent, but saying that it holds 'entirely Pakistan's fate' would be exaggerated. But then whom am i complaining to, a false-flagger?


Not accountable like DG ISI offered his resignation, NLC scam being inquired, the military being audited just like any other governmental institutions, a national level inquuiry being held in case of OBL kill etc etc?


It does so because the its civilian counterparts fail to do the same. It's simple as it could get. If you wont do, i'd do it for you.


Funny yet, if we go by your claims of the kinda power Army enjoys in Pakistan, the senior command has yet to reach the lowest threshold of its civilian counterparts who (as per you) hold no authority but still hold enough authority to embezzle, loot and corrupt every fcuking thing in this country!



Examples please.

If you consider the 1999 coup was the one of such moves, i can only think of you as a fail-troll.


Hmm..i never knew Pakistan Army has started inducted Martians instead of Pakistanis..!!

It what you say is correct then every Army that is or have ever conducted counter-insurgency operations would never be sincere to its People..!!


Yes, we do that. Pat lo jerha patna aye..

Correct again.

No wonder we are keeping your likes at bay!


Actually the Army has delivered more than any other institution of Pakistan had ever. So we are a few proud bunch of Pakistanis who like to boast about our achievements every now and then. Ofcourse we dont have victories (to boast about) like killing the Lebanese, Palestine and those Flotilla guys.


You are not sited for this discussion, as you dont know a tosh about the dynamics of Indo-Pak confrontations. Because had you known anything about it, you would have known that when it comes to india and Pakistan, there are no winners and losers. Keeping a giant three times are size (in all respects), alone is a big an achievement for Pakistanis.



^^Milking the US would have been a better choice of word.

Oh wait...but still we dont reach anywhere near the milking you guys do when it comes to the American Aid!!

Face-palm!


This OBL killing episode was a golden opportunity for the civilians to take charge of the (Pakistan) affairs, but unfortunately it seems, that like previously, the elected representatives are not ready to shoulder the responsibility. Infact, they dont want to burden themselves with the holy task of National security and Foreign Policy.


Rants as usual.


If it didnt happen after the OBL Kill episode, it aint happening ever. FAIL!

Sorry to disappoint you but I am not from India, I am really from Israel. Believe it or not but Pakistan's negative behaviour is being perceived even outside the Indian Subcontinent.

I never implied that your civilian government and political leaders are flawless and does not have any responsibility for the situation, far from that. they are even more incompetent and more corrupted than your army - That is Pakistan's tragedy.

All this accountability you have mentioned is a farce and you know it. The resignation offer of DG ISI just illustrate my point - after this collateral failure of ISI to locate OBL (by their own admission) except COAS no one can really tell him to go (and he did not resign yet). NA (by its own admission) has no efficient tools to supervise the armed forces and the government has no independent sources of information about the army and ISI except what they are willing to share with it. All this investigations are complete nonsense and there is no way they will be conducted in transparency and publish conclusion on the Army and ISI incompetence. Who are you trying to fool? I hope not yourself.

Do you really need an example for the army involvement in politics? Now I suspect that you are have a falls flag! This is the common practice of the army to manipulate the civilian government - they are doing it right now (for example conducting a dialogue with Sharif and keeping PPP in suspense, depriving the President from any real power to control national security policy), and they did it in the past (for example setting JI of Sharif against PPP and Bhutto, using religious parties). And of course the coups - all the coups (1958, 1977, and 1999) by definition were against an elected government in order to preserve the army's interests and agenda.

The army is deceiving the Pakistani people not just on operational grounds - which is mandatory - but on the national security policy. It makes them to believe that India is their enemy and that the military has the means to defeat it. The army is doing that mainly to preserve its status in Pakistan.

Regarding your wars (1947-48, 1965, 1971, 1999) you have nothing to boast about and your army failed again and again in reaching its objective: in 1948 it failed to seize control on the Kashmir valley, in 1965 it failed again with the same mission although it had the element of surprise (he failed in recruiting the Kashmiris too), in 1971 the army surrendered with more than 100,000 POW and lost Bangladesh, and in 1999 after small successes in the Kargil sector (again mainly by using the element of surprise) the line eventually froze without the Army achieving any major success and was forced to withdraw completely.

This is what you are proud about? Then the army propaganda machine is working smoothly.

Face it, you are captive by the army and by your own will. That is way Pakistan is in the difficult situation it is nowadays as a failed state.

 

[Rafi]

^^^^^^^^^^^
With the demographic time bomb Israel is facing with it's growing captive population - you should be worried about your own country, but like I said, you are an indian - with the quotation at the bottom - that is a fact

 

[nirreich]

^^^^^^^^^^^
With the demographic time bomb Israel is facing with it's growing captive population - you should be worried about your own country, but like I said, you are an indian - with the quotation at the bottom - that is a fact

Sorry again to disappoint you but I am indeed from Israel, if you have a problem to believe it then it is your own one. I found this quotation and I think it represents a deep truth about Pakistan, so I am using it as my signature.

Anyway, why it is matter where I am from?

I will be happy to talk about Israel, but this threat is about Pakistan as a failed state and with an incompetent army and the consequences for its future.

 

[Rafi]

Sorry again to disappoint you but I am indeed from Israel, if you have a problem to believe it then it is your own one. I found this quotation and I think it represents a deep truth about Pakistan, so I am using it as my signature.

Anyway, why it is matter where I am from?

I will be happy to talk about Israel, but this threat is about Pakistan as a failed state and with an incompetent army and the consequences for its future.

It is our nation, our army and nothing to do with Israelis, indians are who ever else.

 

[nirreich]

It is our nation, our army and nothing to do with Israelis, indians are who ever else.

In the same way that you can criticise Israel (and you did) I can write and criticise Pakistan which its situation affects the entire international community.

India has a stable democratic regime and it is gaining economic development.

 

[Xeric]

Sorry to disappoint you but I am not from India,

As if i dont know.

I am really from Israel.

Sure, i know you are the same who kill innocents and then also boast about it.

Believe it or not but Pakistan's negative behaviour is being perceived even outside the Indian Subcontinent.

Tell me something new. It's already 2011!

I never implied that your civilian government and political leaders are flawless and does not have any responsibility for the situation, far from that. they are even more incompetent and more corrupted than your army - That is Pakistan's tragedy.

So?
Who is to be blamed for the shorcommings that Pakistan face today?
The inept govt of the military that atleast tries to do something, instead?

All this accountability you have mentioned is a farce and you know it.

Yeah right!

The resignation offer of DG ISI just illustrate my point - after this collateral failure of ISI to locate OBL (by their own admission) except COAS no one can really tell him to go (and he did not resign yet). NA (by its own admission) has no efficient tools to supervise the armed forces and the government has no independent sources of information about the army and ISI except what they are willing to share with it.

That's sheer speculation. i think you dont know that the COAS is answerable to the MoD who in turn is an organ of the State. We all know who can instruct whom to do what. The resignation of Gen Jahangir Karamat is the point in case. So let's cut the crap. if the govt was actually so serious regarding his resignation, it would already had been accepted.

All this investigations are complete nonsense and there is no way they will be conducted in transparency and publish conclusion on the Army and ISI incompetence. Who are you trying to fool? I hope not yourself.

Well, the inquiry is being conducted at the highest level, and this being a national embarrassment would not be sent under the carpet as was being done in the past. But then you can rant on.

Do you really need an example for the army involvement in politics? Now I suspect that you are have a falls flag! This is the common practice of the army to manipulate the civilian government - they are doing it right now (for example conducting a dialogue with Sharif and keeping PPP in suspense, depriving the President from any real power to control national security policy), and they did it in the past (for example setting JI of Sharif against PPP and Bhutto, using religious parties). And of course the coups - all the coups (1958, 1977, and 1999) by definition were against an elected government in order to preserve the army's interests and agenda.

Like i have said earlier, you dont know a tosh about Pakistan and it's Army. Copy pasting fan boy stuff would only get you this far.

When i asked you quotes examples, my concern was to get you educated with the fact that all the military interferences were for a cause. RIght or wrong; that's a separate debate. Most importantly, all of such coups were vetted by the Apex Court of this country, so you can hold your horse. BTW, if you had known that every time the military took over, the same people of Pakistan were the one who distributed sweets all over the country, you would have posted some thing understandable.

The army is deceiving the Pakistani people not just on operational grounds - which is mandatory - but on the national security policy. It makes them to believe that India is their enemy and that the military has the means to defeat it. The army is doing that mainly to preserve its status in Pakistan.

india was/is/would remain our primary focus. There's no question about it. Not until issues like Kashmir, Siachen, Sir Creek, Water etc are solved amicably. So you can monkey around at will.

The people of this country believe this, if they hadnt, then after such prolonged and active engagement against the terrorists must have changed their perception. Now hurry up, congratulate Pak army once again for it's flawless, text-book type propaganda.

BTW, i wonder with all the media and the intellectuals (the basic tools for any propaganda) working against the military in general and the Army in particular, how's it possible that the same Army can still have a following? Must be some magic!

Regarding your wars (1947-48, 1965, 1971, 1999) you have nothing to boast about and your army failed again and again in reaching its objective: in 1948 it failed to seize control on the Kashmir valley, in 1965 it failed again with the same mission although it had the element of surprise (he failed in recruiting the Kashmiris too), in 1971 the army surrendered with more than 100,000 POW and lost Bangladesh, and in 1999 after small successes in the Kargil sector (again mainly by using the element of surprise) the line eventually froze without the Army achieving any major success and was forced to withdraw completely.

i reiterate one more time - you dont know a tosh about the dynamics of Indo-Pak.

We have discussed this (victory/defeat) stuff ad nuseum in threads regarding Kargil, Siachen etc. Gaining a piece of land or reaching a particular spot may be termed as a victory at the operational or may be strategic levels, but making a bully to think twice before it starts pinching us again, is what i call an achievement. Had you known anything about india and Pakistan, you must have come across the scenario where someone dreaming of something like Akhud Bharat now complain to everyone regarding the 'threat' it faces from it's neighbor and then make them write articles like: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...s/111850-why-indian-threat-pakistan-myth.html

This is what you are proud about? Then the army propaganda machine is working smoothly.

Believe me, we two live in two different worlds. Atleast we dont feel proud about shooting children and peace flotillas.

Face it, you are captive by the army and by your own will.

If that be the case, then you have no say whatsoever on our belittled condition, go mind your own business, why pity us? i mean, it would take alot for a terrorist to terrorize another terrorist (state).

That is way Pakistan is in the difficult situation it is nowadays as a failed state.

Failed state?

With victories in Swat and other agencies in numbers more than the yanks could ever achieve, with the military regaining its prestige back and with the elected govt nearing (for the first time) completion of its term, if you consider us a failed state, then no wonder we find a red-neck in Islamabad meeting our generals every next day and asking us to cooperate. Grow up!

Catering for shortage of atta, ghee and gas are not an achievement, if you know, making the b!!tches scream is!!

 

[nirreich]

As if i dont know.

Sure, i know you are the same who kill innocents and then also boast about it.
Tell me something new. It's already 2011!


So?
Who is to be blamed for the shorcommings that Pakistan face today?
The inept govt of the military that atleast tries to do something, instead?


Yeah right!

That's sheer speculation. i think you dont know that the COAS is answerable to the MoD who in turn is an organ of the State. We all know who can instruct whom to do what. The resignation of Gen Jahangir Karamat is the point in case. So let's cut the crap. if the govt was actually so serious regarding his resignation, it would already had been accepted.


Well, the inquiry is being conducted at the highest level, and this being a national embarrassment would not be sent under the carpet as was being done in the past. But then you can rant on.




Like i have said earlier, you dont know a tosh about Pakistan and it's Army. Copy pasting fan boy stuff would only get you this far.

When i asked you quotes examples, my concern was to get you educated with the fact that all the military interferences were for a cause. RIght or wrong; that's a separate debate. Most importantly, all of such coups were vetted by the Apex Court of this country, so you can hold your horse. BTW, if you had known that every time the military took over, the same people of Pakistan were the one who distributed sweets all over the country, you would have posted some thing understandable.


india was/is/would remain our primary focus. There's no question about it. Not until issues like Kashmir, Siachen, Sir Creek, Water etc are solved amicably. So you can monkey around at will.

The people of this country believe this, if they hadnt, then after such prolonged and active engagement against the terrorists must have changed their perception. Now hurry up, congratulate Pak army once again for it's flawless, text-book type propaganda.

BTW, i wonder with all the media and the intellectuals (the basic tools for any propaganda) working against the military in general and the Army in particular, how's it possible that the same Army can still have a following? Must be some magic!


i reiterate one more time - you dont know a tosh about the dynamics of Indo-Pak.

We have discussed this (victory/defeat) stuff ad nuseum in threads regarding Kargil, Siachen etc. Gaining a piece of land or reaching a particular spot may be termed as a victory at the operational or may be strategic levels, but making a bully to think twice before it starts pinching us again, is what i call an achievement. Had you known anything about india and Pakistan, you must have come across the scenario where someone dreaming of something like Akhud Bharat now complain to everyone regarding the 'threat' it faces from it's neighbor and then make them write articles like: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...s/111850-why-indian-threat-pakistan-myth.html


Believe me, we two live in two different worlds. Atleast we dont feel proud about shooting children and peace flotillas.


If that be the case, then you have no say whatsoever on our belittled condition, go mind your own business, why pity us? i mean, it would take alot for a terrorist to terrorize another terrorist (state).

Failed state?

With victories in Swat and other agencies in numbers more than the yanks could ever achieve, with the military regaining its prestige back and with the elected govt nearing (for the first time) completion of its term, if you consider us a failed state, then no wonder we find a red-neck in Islamabad meeting our generals every next day and asking us to cooperate. Grow up!

Catering for shortage of atta, ghee and gas are not an achievement, if you know, making the b!!tches scream is!!

Sorry to disappoint you again but I am very proud of my country as a stable liberal democratic one, the entire opposite of Pakistan.

The most hilarious part in your reply is your claim that COAS is answerable to MOD. Yea right. Now I seriously suspect that you impersonate to a Pakistani while your are from Upper Guinea of Surinam. Every kid in Pakistan knows that COAS does not answer to anyone, except maybe to its own generals. Sure, officially there is a president and there is a prime minister and even a defence minister but none of them would even dream to counter the army. MOD is run by retired officers who take care for the military interests, this ministry is just a bureaucracy for organising ceremonies, host state delegations and transfer pension money. Karamat resignation is the exceptional case - no other COAS was forced to resign by the government. while several governments were forced to be dismissed by the army. After Karamat the prime minister tried again to fire COAS and we all know how it ended - not COAS was fired but the prime minister was sent to prison and then to exile.

I know that in Pakistan the army and the government use to lie to the public as normal practice, but this degenerate approach cannot work on outsiders, so stop lying, you only embarrassing yourself.

Let us wait and see about the outcome of this so-called investigations into the army's business. I can guarantee you in advance that the army and ISI would come clean. The investigation of the OBL saga will come to the conclusion that the blame for the fiasco is the cooperation with the US in the WOT that it should be limited or halted completely. Nothing will come up about the incompetence of the army or ISI - if the conclusion of the investigation even see daylight.

Although you keep telling me that I do not know anything about Pakistan you do not deny the facts I presented.

Regarding the army involvement in politics, you claim it was for a cause. Of course there was a cause - saving the army's interests on the expense of the democratic regime. The SC vetted every coup because your judicial is not impartial and it is part of the political game. Furthermore, what judge would risk to face the rough of the army and claim a coup as unconstitutional when it already happened and the army has full control on the state? He will be mad to do that and risk his career, hurt his family, and perhaps gamble with his own life.

Regarding Indo-Pakistan wars, Pakistan army never achieved any objective that it itself defined as the successful outcome of the military campaign. All is left to argue is what is the extent of the failure and if the Indian army failed too.

All the disagreements between India and Pakistan are just a projection of the main conflict: Pakistan army cannot tolerate its inferiority position vis-a-vis India and makes tremendous efforts to emasculate India, and break its spirit. The main tool for that is terrorism against India in Kashmir and in India's nerve centres - financial and government sectors - while this terrorism is protected with a nuclear umbrella to deter India from any retaliation against Pakistan with conventional force.

And sorry to tell you the bad news but you are indeed living in a failed state with 60% living with less than $2 per day, GDP per capita of only $2,400, with only half of the population is literate. There are other countries which are in a similar position but you need to deal with an army which swallow a huge chunk of the budget mainly for its welfare and enjoys better education and health services than most of the country. The only justification for the army privileges is the conflict with India, so it is the army's interest to maintain this conflict and bring it out of proportions.

If you are blind to all that either you are brained-washed by the army propaganda or you are a real Pakistani general who has a vested interest to preserve this system which gives him so many perks on the expense of the public.

 

[Jango]

the second last paragraph in your post, even india has people like this and on a much larger scale, they arent considered a failed state, just giving you a example.

 

[nirreich]

the second last paragraph in your post, even india has people like this and on a much larger scale, they arent considered a failed state, just giving you a example.

As I specifically mentioned this alone is not enough to define a state as a failed state, but you need to add unstable and incompetent regime like in Pakistan which tends to use and encourage violence and terror within the country and outside of it.

India has a stable democratic regime and it is gaining an economic development.

 

[A for Anarchy]

The Pakistan Army is probably the most organized in the entire region which is why it is clearly able to assert power in front of a meek democratic support.

In fact, when the partition happened it is frankly amazing to see the pace at which the army was built to counter the might of the already enlisted INA. The kind of respect it demands today from the Indian setup is also no less amazing.

That being said, it did not have a right to interfere in citizen set ups or interfere with democratic processes. It also was not morally correctly to use covert militant cells as strategic assets.

The truth is "the bashing of the Pakistan army" is just a result Public and foreign outpouring of failed external policies of Pakistan in the past and present. Clearly Pakistan as a nation is not taking a stand on what its external relations are going to be. This is a result of half fed myths and half hearted decision making. < Should we support the US or not? Should we kill the Taliban or not? Is someone going to kill us tomorrow if we say something which we actually believe in? Is someone going stop giving us money if we have the balls to stand up to what is morally right?>

On a side note:
For an army to generate resources it needs money. It needs a keep a myth of an enemy alive - which is what nations of the world do. India is now looking towards China as their major regional competitor militarily not just because of threat (which believe it or not has only decreased) but also for increased military spending to "compete" with greater might against a greater power.

Pakistan army will always project India as a territorial enemy as it is very easy to convince general public do so.

No the Pakistan army is not incompetent, it serves it self interests which include protecting the nation's sovereignty and security while creating a war hysteria whenever it feels so.

Remember the army also has the most nationalistic people in the country who believe that they are doing an almost holy job of protecting people which also plays a constant backdrop to the kind of mentality they have and the superior air around which they are less like to be controlled. They believe what they are doing is right. It has also been traditionally true, serving as an army man was regarded in great light Pakistan as compared to others of the sub continent.

 

[Xeric]

The most hilarious part in your reply is your claim that COAS is answerable to MOD. Yea right. Now I seriously suspect that you impersonate to a Pakistani while your are from Upper Guinea of Surinam. Every kid in Pakistan knows that COAS does not answer to anyone, except maybe to its own generals. Sure, officially there is a president and there is a prime minister and even a defence minister but none of them would even dream to counter the army. MOD is run by retired officers who take care for the military interests, this ministry is just a bureaucracy for organising ceremonies, host state delegations and transfer pension money. Karamat resignation is the exceptional case - no other COAS was forced to resign by the government. while several governments were forced to be dismissed by the army. After Karamat the prime minister tried again to fire COAS and we all know how it ended - not COAS was fired but the prime minister was sent to prison and then to exile.

^^ It is funny that you accept that a system exists, but at the same time you very easily reject it on pleas that are not based on facts. i would have not argued with you on this if we were talking about this when Musharraf was in power, or when Zia was ruling Pakistan, but then today it is totally a different story. Gen Kiyani, the guy who brought every uniform (appointed by Musharraf) back from the civilian organizations the day he took over, Gen Kiyani, who goes to the PM Sectt and briefs the PM in person - an unprecedented initiative. Gen Kiyani whose interference was the minimal in the history of Pakistan, notwithstanding that fact that the only visible interference by him was in the much needed case of CJP.

So:

I know that in Pakistan the army and the government use to lie to the public as normal practice,

Aaa.. How..?

May be in the same way as Israelis (and their reps in the US Govt) lie to the American Public and extract monies..?

but this degenerate approach cannot work on outsiders, so stop lying, you only embarrassing yourself.

Lies and liars dont have feet. Lies cannot be sustained for 6 decades, but it they do, then they are not lies any more. So, you please stop embarrassing yourself.

Let us wait and see about the outcome of this so-called investigations into the army's business.

Let's see.

A meeting has already been held by the court/members of the inquiry yesterday, if you know.

I can guarantee you in advance that the army and ISI would come clean.

ISI has already been accused and above all accepted its mistake/failure infront of the elected representatives during the in-cam session of the Parliament. So there's nothing to hide now, it's all written on the wall, only trolls like yourself cant see the writing.

The investigation of the OBL saga will come to the conclusion that the blame for the fiasco is the cooperation with the US in the WOT that it should be limited or halted completely.

Great! You already know it. That's exactly the reason behind every shyt Pakistan has been since 9/11. There were no suicide bombing before 9/11 in Pakistan. Pakistan was stabler back then, Pakistan was better off then. It's only this cooperation with the yanks that have led us to this stage. We have cleaned your shyt for some time now, i think it's high time we start seeing our interests as a Nation first and stop following the instructions from Washington. Only then we can extract ourselves from this mess. BTW, FYKI it is the US who needs Pakistan more than Pakistan need the US, this is with reference to the (worsening) situation in Afghanistan. BTW, do you know the yanks are already on the back door dialogue process with the Talibans? No you dont!

Nothing will come up about the incompetence of the army or ISI - if the conclusion of the investigation even see daylight.

The moment American choppers crossed the Pakistani border, the shortcommings of the military were clear to everyone. This has been hammered by the media (ours and yours) to death, every kid in Pakistan now knows about it, but if still you think that the investigators are going to hide this fact, then i can only think of you as some numbskull who has nothing but some vested interest on this forum.

Oh wait, may be this is how things get around in Israel, no wonder the IDF came out as heroes after they raided the Peace Flotilla, and it is because of this syndrome that you like to grade every other Nation as a cheat! Mend your house before you start preaching!

Although you keep telling me that I do not know anything about Pakistan you do not deny the facts I presented.

although i keep telling you the glorious history of Israel, but i dont find you countering it. May be because you also dont deny those facts?

Regarding the army involvement in politics, you claim it was for a cause. Of course there was a cause - saving the army's interests on the expense of the democratic regime.

Now as you have said it. Please quote me the interests the military wanted to save. And before you do that, let me warn me that by quoting the instances of Ameer-ul-Momineen going omni-powerful etc, you will only find more shyt flying towards you.

The SC vetted every coup because your judicial is not impartial and it is part of the political game.

^^ WTF!

Is there anything guud about Pakistan?

You started as the Army is the only ill of Pakistan, but ended at accusing every Pakistani institution of involvement!

Here we term this attitude as a Troll.

Stick to something for once and all, because this feels out of place as a pork chop in a synagogue!!

Furthermore, what judge would risk to face the rough of the army and claim a coup as unconstitutional when it already happened and the army has full control on the state?

Iftikhar Chaudary is a sitting example and a slap on your face!
Your rant only confirms my belief, that you dont a tosh about Pakistan.

He will be mad to do that and risk his career, hurt his family, and perhaps gamble with his own life.

Wait...was it CJP of Pakistan who made a serving DG MI to answer the courts? Yes, it was THE CJP who ordered the removal of DG Rangers Karachi recently. More, it was the same courts of Pakistan that has ordered to issue red warrants for an ex general.

Like as i have said earlier, you mistake Pak Army as IDF/MOSAAD (Kill teams) who assassinate their opponents and their families. Do you want me to quote weblinks on this?

Regarding Indo-Pakistan wars, Pakistan army never achieved any objective that it itself defined as the successful outcome of the military campaign. All is left to argue is what is the extent of the failure and if the Indian army failed too.

i can only say this:

All the disagreements between India and Pakistan are just a projection of the main conflict: Pakistan army cannot tolerate its inferiority position vis-a-vis India and makes tremendous efforts to emasculate India, and break its spirit. The main tool for that is terrorism against India in Kashmir and in India's nerve centres - financial and government sectors - while this terrorism is protected with a nuclear umbrella to deter India from any retaliation against Pakistan with conventional force.

The border between Pakistan and india has already been fenced.

There's no credible sources to claim that Pakistan is still sending in some suicidal pegions, only papers like Times of India, etc keep quoting random reports whereby some imaginary ghuspatias are scaring the shyt out of their BSF.

India failed to prove involvement of Pakistani state in any of the terrorist acts that took place inside india. It is only yappers like yourself who like to tow this line.

It was not Pakistanis who thrashed the indian occupation forces in Kashmir with stones (the famous stone pelters, if you know).

And it is not Pakistanis who control 22 Districts in india by virtue of terror (maiost etc).

But it is india who is running numerous Consulates in Afg.

It were some indian arms that were found under use of the terrorists attacking Pakistan.

And it is india who extends moral and material support to the likes of BLA.

And sorry to tell you the bad news but you are indeed living in a failed state with 60% living with less than $2 per day, GDP per capita of only $2,400, with only half of the population is literate. There are other countries which are in a similar position but you need to deal with an army which swallow a huge chunk of the budget mainly for its welfare and enjoys better education and health services than most of the country.

Pakistan's military (NOT the Army alone, but the tri-services and the MoD) in 2009/10 was 2.5 % of our GDP, this came to about 13% of our National Budget.

In 2010/11 it is about 18% of our National Budget, that too when we are stuck in an almost all out war against terror (thanks to your masters). For more detail please visit the thread like: http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-defence/112938-pakistan-inside-military-budget.html and STFU!

The only justification for the army privileges is the conflict with India, so it is the army's interest to maintain this conflict and bring it out of proportions.


If you are blind to all that either you are brained-washed by the army propaganda or you are a real Pakistani general who has a vested interest to preserve this system which gives him so many perks on the expense of the public.

As you are hell bent upon spewing hatred against Pakistani's and its military without getting your facts straight and wasting our time by bringing forth the same old lame arguments that have been countered a hundred times on this forum, i can only guide you to this:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/105240-one-trillion-rupee-question.html

and this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...94-what-salary-2nd-lieutenant-pak-army-2.html


And please dont make me repeat what i have said earlier. This will only get you eat more turd on this forum. india will remain our focus till the time the issues between both the countries stay pending. Until then india is the foremost threat that we face, but as i now know that you dont know a tosh about us, i would like to help you with this: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...s/111850-why-indian-threat-pakistan-myth.html

 

[muse]

Please be fair, Genberal kiyani has had nothing to do with getting rid of uniforms in civilian governance- the entire credit of that goes to the present so called democratic dispensation.

As for the charge that the Pakistani army is do at just one thing, namely playing politics - well, I refer you to historical facts - and if you should argue that it is good at bringing victory to Pakistan, perhaps you will refer us to the historical record?