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End of American Era in Eqypt

Mubarak was hyping tha radical Islamist threat to suppress any dissent or criticism of his regime. By supporting Mubarak's brutality unconditionally, America has damaged its own image. Islamists didn't need to do a thing -- America achieved this all by itself.
Correction...Islamists have done themselves at the very least EQUAL damages in perception in that they are violent, misogynistic, and backward.

Prevention is always easier than the cure.

If Egypt had remained free of US aid, then it would not need to be weaned off it now. The good news, if you can call it that, is that the US aid went mostly to the oligarchy and the military -- the ordinary people barely saw any of it. So they won't miss it.
The question was why did Egypt needed US aid in the first place? America did not held a gun to Mubarak's head. Or did you forget that it was Islamists who PUBLICLY assassinated Anwar Sadat over his peace treaty with Israel? Am willing to bet you are not old enough to live through that event. Mubarak really had no choice: Either have Egypt continue a war against Israel that would further depress Egyptian economy. Or keep the peace treaty and go 'pro-West' and thereby earning those US aid. As for those aid, who else are we supposed to give to? The people? A government is supposed to be the only representative in dealing with other governments. If we give straight to the people, we would be accused of bribery anyway, in a more direct fashion.

Skipped your medication again, did you?
Am not taking any medication. But perhaps you missed your daily dosage of reality? The reality is that while corruption in general are worthy of condemnation, the people are willing to tolerate a certain amount of it, even in functional democracies, because we realize that people are flawed and some in offices of responsibilities and power will abuse those offices for their own gains. But if corruption are as rampant as they are in the ME, and I have been to Egypt via a few Bright Star joint exercises, who is/are to blame? Democracy? US aid money? God? Corruption are not borne. It is taught and usually by the people currently occupying offices of governments and who got away with their abuses of power.

As a democracy, Egypt's government -- whether Islamic or secular -- should abide by its people's wishes when formulating its foreign policy. Whether it remains pro- or anti-Israel is entirely up to the Egyptian people. "Protection money" by foreign powers should not thwart the democratic process.

The US aid to Mubarak has served a dual purpose -- to play nice with Israel, and to maintain a brutal despotic regime. The Egyptians are rebelling against the latter and they are not likely to look favorably upon the despot's financial backers.
If the government accepts offers of 'protection money', then the people certainly has the prerogative of choosing another government. The current social unrest in Egypt proved that US aid money is nowhere as powerful and influential as many here would like to believe. The Chinese ran over homegrown democracy believers and the Chinese government receive no US aid money. So why not the Egyptian army do the same? What happened to said 'protection money'?

However, I think the Egyptians are pragmatic and would want to reset the relationship and start afresh -- if America is wise enough to do likewise.
The US is always ready to play nice with any government. Aid money or not.

Correct. These protests are about domestic issues, not Israel.
Anyone who believe that Israel will not become an issue with the new government, assuming there will be one, is certainly off his medication.

In this case, American influence is not overblown. America has been paying $2 billion/year for the last 30 years precisely to suppress democracy in Egypt.
Then why no Egyptian tank commanders running over protesters? After all, it is 'protection money', no?

Ah, the standard Western duplicity shows its head again: democracy is good, except where it harms Western interests. Glad you finally acknowledged that the West has a vested interest in suppressing genuine democracy in Egypt, and has been doing so for the last 30 years.

The Egyptians, like most people around the world, will elect whoever delivers the best results on domestic matters. Elections are rarely about foreign policy, except during a war. Being pro- and anti-West will be low on the Egyptians' list of priorites when electing representatives.

If the people who deliver the best governance on domestic issues happen to be Islamistsw, then so be it. The West will have to suck it up.
No duplicity here. Democracy in principle is always a good thing. But when the democratically elected leaders turned against US, it is not a problem of democracy but one of human and inter-states relations.
 
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The turmoil in Egypt is the inevitable result of a government that placated Washington for years in defiance of the wishes of its own people. Plus, full coverage of the uprising in Egypt

The end of Hosni Mubarak’s regime in Egypt portends fundamental change throughout the Middle East and the end of the American era in the region. Mubarak was the archetype authoritarian that Washington has relied upon to help maintain a regional political order that made it relatively easy to exercise American power. The Egyptian strongman kept the peace with Israel, the Suez Canal open, and the Islamists down. If he was often brutal without being repressive in the ways of Iraq’s Saddam Hussein or the late Syrian leader, Hafiz al Assad, all the better. Mubarak’s disdain for his people, who never much liked the regime’s alignment with the United States—and by association, Israel—was hardly troublesome to Washington in light of the strategic benefits the Egyptian leader provided. The logic of U.S.-Middle East policy has run into the hard realities of political alienation, limited economic opportunities, and raw anger at the corruption and arrogance of Washington’s allies.


It is no wonder that the Obama administration is struggling with a response to the Egyptian revolution. Without Mubarak and Egypt, Washington is left with the mercurial Saudis—who, while enjoying the umbrella of American security, enable extremist ideologies that threaten the United States—a weak Jordan, the small Gulf states, Morocco, which is on the edge of the Arab world, and Israel. This ragtag lot of allies hardly inspires awe. The changes coming to Egypt have important consequences, though not necessarily in ways that American officials and the news media seem to be worried about, including the rise of Islamists or the abrogation of peace with Israel. Both are good story angles and should not be totally dismissed, but there are more fundamental changes in the offing.

Whatever happens in Egypt and other countries in the region that are confronting domestic unrest, new leaders will need to demonstrate a break from the previous order in an effort to hold onto and consolidate their power. It is here where the United States is going to run into trouble even if—as many are demanding—Washington makes a strong statement of support for the aspirations of the Egyptian people. Although precious little has been said about the United States on Egyptian streets this week, when the dust settles Egyptians will be taking stock of the Mubarak period and the relationship with Washington is not likely to be a bright spot. To be sure, the United States has contributed mightily to Egypt’s development in everything from road building and rural electrification to health care. Still, there are many Egyptians who believe that the strategic alignment with Washington has warped Egyptian foreign policy and, as a consequence, undermined Cairo’s traditional regional influence.

The defining example of this was another large demonstration eight years ago in Cairo that coincided with the American invasion of Iraq. The demonstrators predictably assailed the Bush administration, and the Israelis for good measure, but then took the opportunity to denounce President Mubarak and his then-presumptive heir, Gamal Mubarak, for defying public opinion and doing nothing of consequence to prevent the attack. For the protesters that day, a democratic Egypt would have resisted the predatory policies of the United States in the region rather than, as it turned out, quietly enabling them.

Photos: Egypt Protests

Article - Cook Egypt
Egyptian anti-government protesters pray in front of an Egyptian army tank during a protest in Tahrir square in Cairo, Egypt, Saturday, Jan. 29, 2011. (Photo: AP Photo, 2)

This echo from the recent past should be a warning to the Obama administration that it is bound to confront significant challenges in its bilateral relations with Egypt and other Arab countries. Even leaders in those countries that have not experienced the dramatic events in Egypt will now want to signal that they are responsive to public opinion. Is this transparent? Absolutely. Does that matter? Not at all, but for those leaders who are looking to avoid something akin to Mubarak’s ignominious downfall it will be hard to resist the populist mantle. Unfortunately for American policymakers, the United States is an inviting target given its manifest unpopularity throughout the region. This is not to suggest that democratic development is a bad thing, but that the new normal in the Middle East is going to be far more difficult to navigate without a pliant Egypt and a slew of nervous clients.

When the dust settles Egyptians will be taking stock of the Mubarak period and the relationship with Washington is not likely to be a bright spot.

The natural inclination in Washington will be to seek some way to influence the process of change so that it is less damaging to U.S. interests. Forget it. There is nothing Washington can do. Change is coming to the Arab world because of its own internal problems and contradictions. Arabs are writing their own narrative and Washington would do well to make a strong statement in favor of the democratic aspiration of the people and then back off. Washington should expend its diplomatic efforts accommodating itself to the realities of a changed Middle East, not trying to change it.

Steven A. Cook is the Hasib J. Sabbagh Senior Fellow for Middle Eastern Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.

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For inquiries, please contact The Daily Beast at editorial@thedailybeast.com.

Soon Americans will be out from Pakistan and Afghanistan , Middle East etc

HAHAHAHA.. Nice joke.
This is NWO baby.
 
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Isn't that over simplifying the issue? Foreign aid is misused in many nations. There have been instances of such misuse in the past in my country as well. Can we blame the aiding nation for that misuse? Obviously the donor wishes the aid to be used for specific purposes which are aimed at improving the lot of the masses. 'Raw brutality and tyranny' are the functions of a dictator clinging on to power despite clear lack of popular support. These are not elements of a nation's foreign policy. At best the Americans or anyone else for that matter, after befriending a dictator would like him to be in compliance with their broad foreign policy format in that part of the world. How he runs his own nation is entirely his own business.

Have I missed out something here or am I being too naive?
Of course it is and such simplification is a must if the desire is to remove the recipient from the problem as much as possible. The US is criticized for doing nothing to help the Palestinians, yet the record shows that the US is the highest singular aid donor to the Palestinians. But if Arafat and his cronies lined their pockets with those aid and kept the Palestinians' attention away from those aid, what are we, the US, supposed to do? Heck...If the CIA and Hollywood is as powerful and influential as people believe, the US would be running the world by now. Funny how no one accused US of suppressing the democratic rights of the Palestinians with US 'protection money'. Protection for what?
 
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The problem of Corruption in Egypt is as good as it is in Pakistan. It will be hard to get rid of it over night. Egypt will still need outside help. People may be sick of Mubarak already but it is hard to fight your own hunger.
 
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The Chinese ran over homegrown democracy believers and the Chinese government receive no US aid money.

The fact that it was extremely difficult, if not, almost impossible for anyone in China obtain visa to visit the United States back then. Yet most of the leaders of the Tiananmen incident left China quickly and prospered in the West without any obvious difficulty says a lot about the Americans influence on these "so-called" homegrown democracy believers doesn't it? :china:
 
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The fact that it was extremely difficult, if not, almost impossible for anyone in China obtain visa to visit the United States back then. Yet most of the leaders of the Tiananmen incident left China quickly and prospered in the West without any obvious difficulty says a lot about the Americans influence on these "so-called" homegrown democracy believers doesn't it? :china:
Leaders, eh? Assuming they are US agents, what about the rest of the crowd who got ran over? Are they not homegrown? :lol:
 
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My question was: Why does Egypt, not Mubarak, require US aid? Functional democracies like those in Europe do not receive, or 'addicted to' as originally said, US aid.

---------- Post added at 04:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 AM ----------


Would you be more comfortable with an Iranian puppet?

I ll only respond to your first question... (the second is not worthy of any answer)... You have nt been giving any aid to the Egyptian people... The "aid" is for keeping Mubarak in power so that you can have your way in the region...

Heres what one scumbag has been saying about another scumbag...

Joe Biden says Egypt's Mubarak no dictator, he shouldn't step down... - CSMonitor.com

The first scumbag is your vice President... bravo!!!!
 
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Of course it is and such simplification is a must if the desire is to remove the recipient from the problem as much as possible. The US is criticized for doing nothing to help the Palestinians, yet the record shows that the US is the highest singular aid donor to the Palestinians. But if Arafat and his cronies lined their pockets with those aid and kept the Palestinians' attention away from those aid, what are we, the US, supposed to do? Heck...If the CIA and Hollywood is as powerful and influential as people believe, the US would be running the world by now. Funny how no one accused US of suppressing the democratic rights of the Palestinians with US 'protection money'. Protection for what?

What are you supposed to do?

You are supposed to NOT give aid to someone you know is corrupt and is lining his own pocket with your "aid" money... duh
 
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Isn't that over simplifying the issue? Foreign aid is misused in many nations. There have been instances of such misuse in the past in my country as well. Can we blame the aiding nation for that misuse? Obviously the donor wishes the aid to be used for specific purposes which are aimed at improving the lot of the masses. 'Raw brutality and tyranny' are the functions of a dictator clinging on to power despite clear lack of popular support. These are not elements of a nation's foreign policy. At best the Americans or anyone else for that matter, after befriending a dictator would like him to be in compliance with their broad foreign policy format in that part of the world. How he runs his own nation is entirely his own business.

Have I missed out something here or am I being too naive?

Americans have a long history in the country... specially since the times of Nasir... they got rid of British influence in a brilliant CIA operation using Nasir and have been in control of the geo politics since then... You are my dear being a little too naive putting it politely...

The problem is that Americans are fully aware of whats been happening in Egypt... when you start supporting a brutal cut throat and preach democracy and peace to the world, the world does nt need much thinking to realize that you are a hypocrite of the first order... Egyptian society has suffered tremendously under Mubarak... You have hundreds and thousands of stories of people simply disappearing... I have known people who have been tortured in Egyptian prisons for as little as discussing Islamic history of Egypt in Universities... when you have such an attitude, those you call your allies are part and parcel of the problem...

It would do absolutely no good if Egypt remains an indirect colony of the United States... Try to understand... Egypt is very important for American interests... they are losing a lot of sleep over the affairs... but it was bound to happen one day anyway... So long Mubarak... lets see now when he runs away from the country and lands in Saudi Arabia to spend the rest of his life...
 
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Americans have a long history in the country... specially since the times of Nasir... they got rid of British influence in a brilliant CIA operation using Nasir and have been in control of the geo politics since then... You are my dear being a little too naive putting it politely...

The problem is that Americans are fully aware of whats been happening in Egypt... when you start supporting a brutal cut throat and preach democracy and peace to the world, the world does nt need much thinking to realize that you are a hypocrite of the first order... Egyptian society has suffered tremendously under Mubarak... You have hundreds and thousands of stories of people simply disappearing... I have known people who have been tortured in Egyptian prisons for as little as discussing Islamic history of Egypt in Universities... when you have such an attitude, those you call your allies are part and parcel of the problem...

It would do absolutely no good if Egypt remains an indirect colony of the United States... Try to understand... Egypt is very important for American interests... they are losing a lot of sleep over the affairs... but it was bound to happen one day anyway... So long Mubarak... lets see now when he runs away from the country and lands in Saudi Arabia to spend the rest of his life...
Good...Then let us broaden the definition of 'aid' to include economic relations since gains from said relations can be used to oppress the people, this mean ALL Arab countries who have any kind of relationships with Egypt...

EMBASSY OF PAKISTAN IN EGYPT
Since the opening of the Commercial Section, the trade volume has significantly increased between Pakistan and Egypt and the bilateral trade crossed $313 million in the financial year 2007-08 – an increase of US$120 million compared to 2006-07.
...Are parts and parcels of the greater problem.
 
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Good...Then let us broaden the definition of 'aid' to include economic relations since gains from said relations can be used to oppress the people, this mean ALL Arab countries who have any kind of relationships with Egypt...

EMBASSY OF PAKISTAN IN EGYPT

...Are parts and parcels of the greater problem.

Hey I dont disagree... I m all for getting rid of the puppets we have in our own country... Hell I ll even let them live and get lost for good... the rest of the countrymen would want them hanged across Pakistan... surprise surprise??
 
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Dont get me wrong gambit my dear... We will speak against oppression wherever that may be... this includes the US of A also...
 
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Hey I dont disagree... I m all for getting rid of the puppets we have in our own country... Hell I ll even let them live and get lost for good... the rest of the countrymen would want them hanged across Pakistan... surprise surprise??
Dont get me wrong gambit my dear... We will speak against oppression wherever that may be... this includes the US of A also...
Good...I hope you are not under the impression that once the ME is cleansed of corruption the US will not have any relations with the region. That would be at odds with the fact that we have relations with the functional democracies in Europe and Asia. And do not fret about 'oppression' in the US, meaning state sponsored oppression on the citizenry. When there are far worse true oppression, not the imaginary kind, in your own countries (plural), focusing on US is nothing but a narcotic lollipop.

But to get back to Egypt...

Mubarak is not an American or even European. He is of Egypt, of the ME. He succeeded the murdered Sadat. He know Egypt and its government, meaning he know its weaknesses and strengths. He know how to get things done either through established governmental channels or through his own methods where he answers to no one and when each suits him. He know its people's temptations, meaning inside and outside the government, and how strong is the desire to give in to those temptations. If other dictatorships can get by without American aid, what make you or anyone else so certain that Mubarak can get by unless he receive American aid? Did the CIA paid ordinary Egyptians to desire a larger house on a larger land spread and carry that temptation into government services and other areas of Egyptian life? Or how about the fact that this is what all peoples of all countries want and that somehow in the ME, how to get what one desire by hook or by crook, especially the 'crook' part, is largely ignored?

Stop blaming others for the ills of your societies.
 
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Mubarak’s family flees to London with 35 Billion Pounds. US plans Post-Hosni era

Posted on 31 January 2011.

The panic-stricken family of President Mubarak has reportedly fled Egypt for the luxurious refuge of their £8.5 million London townhouse.

There are reports in the mainstream US media that the Obama Administration is preparing for an Egypt without US protégé Mr. Hosni Mubarak. The White today faces the same dilemma as it faced in Iran in 1979 and in Pakistan in 2008. How does it throw dictators to the wolves when they have worked with the US for years. The US is using the old play-book, egg on the dictator to open up and reform. Obviously, “reform” at this stage leads to a further weakening of the dictatorship ultimately rending him impotent. The scenario has been played out many times where the dictator is left seeking political asylum in the UK and the US–with the US facing the ugly situation of having to refuse entry to the dictator.

The LA Times says “It’s a very difficult balance to be struck. Mubarak is, after all, a friend of the United States for the last 30 years,” he said. “A lot of our allies in the region — the Saudis, Jordanians and Kuwaitis — will be particularly nervous if it looks like the U.S. is doing in one of their friends. The administration understand this.

It may be too late to save Mubarak. The Sun from the UK reports that “The panic-stricken family of President Mubarak has reportedly fled Egypt for the luxurious refuge of their £8.5 million London townhouse.

The leader’s son Gamal, 47, is said to have spearheaded the move, flying to Britain on a private jet with his own family and NINETY-SEVEN pieces of luggage. He owns the six-floor Georgian mansion a stone’s throw from Harrods in Knightsbridge, West London.

But according to rumours sweeping Britain’s Egyptian community, the President, 82, and wife Suzanne, 69, are also planning to head to the ritzy five-bed haven….Egyptian baggage handlers at Heathrow are even said to have already spotted the First Lady arriving at the airport.

Mubarak is said to have amassed a £25 billion fortune for his family since grabbing power in 1981.”

The chickens have come home to roost, the Obama Administration is now facing the wrath of the Egyptian people. Any further support of Mubarak will lead to further alienation of what the State Department used to derisively refer to the as the “Arab Street”. Today the “Arab Street” is angry and not willing to tolerate a US imposed henchman.

As in Iran, the US now wants someone like Mohamed ElBarade or Solaimon to take over. This will probably not work in Cairo–where the Ikhwan Ul Muslimeen is ready to fill the vacuum.

This “managed change” will not satisfy the Egyptians who have eked out a living under the brutality of Mubarak.

The LA Times says that “They don’t want to push Mubarak over the cliff, but they understand that the Mubarak era is over and that the only way Mubarak could be saved now is by a ruthless suppression of the population, which would probably set the stage for a much more radical revolution down the road..”

“They recognized that change was coming and they needed to be on the right side of history and not trying to keep Mubarak in power against all odds.”

President Obama’s famous speech in 2009 in Cairo proclaimed that governments must reflect “the will of the people.” He is hard-pressed now to throw his support behind a brutal ruler at the expense of a young population clamoring for democratic and human rights.

“But the most important thing they understand is that they have to get in front of this and not behind it.”

President Obama on Saturday spoke to a jittery Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and worried King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and listened to the sane advice given by the Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. They key is –how does the US put in play “an orderly transition to a government that is responsive to the aspirations of the Egyptian people,”. This is not an easy nut to crack, despite what the White House wishes.

The Haaretz from Israel reports that “Israel called on the United States and a number of European countries over the weekend to curb their criticism of President Hosni Mubarak to preserve stability in the region.
Jerusalem seeks to convince its allies that it is in the West’s interest to maintain the stability of the Egyptian regime. The diplomatic measures came after statements in Western capitals implying that the United States and European Union supported Mubarak’s ouster”.

The Akhwan Ul Muslimeen (AUM) has promised to rip the peace treaty with Isreal and current statements from the leadership clearly warns the governments in Yemen and Saudi Arabia.

“The American government cannot ask the Egyptian people to believe that a dictator who has been in power for 30 years would be the one to implement democracy,” Mohamed ElBaradei talking to “Face the Nation.”

The US is propping up Mohamed ElBaradei as a viable option to Mubarak–but it wont fly.
 
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Leaders, eh? Assuming they are US agents, what about the rest of the crowd who got ran over? Are they not homegrown? :lol:

The ones leading doesn't necessarily have to fight in the front line. We don't see Bush and his adminitration fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan do we? Instead they were ordering and orchestrating the attacks from afar.

The crowd was manipulated into causing the trouble, therefore, would have to bear the subsequent consequences. Is Egypt not rolling out its APC and tanks right now? How many days did it take them before to utilizing its military? I believe what happened in China started in April and it didn't end until June when they finally rolled out the military.

One more thing, China never in its history embraced "Democracy". Democracy is relatively new term in history. So if Democracy was to come about in China, it would certainly be something that was implanted there. makes sense to you now? ;)
 
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