Egyptian Armed Forces

[Ramses Akhenaten Ahmose]

Are there Any Helicopter requirement of Egypt that India can fulfill,
In my opinion these are the possible candidates

• The HAL Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) can replace the French Gazelle and ancient UH 12 helicopters.

• IMRH can replace Soviet Mi 8 and Mi 17 (infact if things go well Egypt can be a partner in the IMRH program)

• HAL Dhruv can replace Mi 4 and UH 60 (well kind of as they are not exactly comparable)

• HAL Rudra and HAL Prachand can form the light attack helicopter fleet of Egypt

We just need a heli project that can be comparable to that of the ah 64 apache helicopter since we want to reduce dependency on the US while maintaining equal military capabilities. I forgot about the rudra to be honest, the gazelle can be used for training purposes so we don't just throw them away wholesale. I personally don't see egypt throwing away the mi 17s just because its the work horse of the transportation department for the helicopter fleet. We also have the Chinooks that we plan to upgrade as well, since egypt is the most populated arabic speaking nation, its best for them to keep as much of their transport varients as possible, imrh could be supplementary in this matter. Mi 24 hinds and ka 52 alligator are staying in egyptian service for a long time. You also have the denel rouivalk from South Africa, and if it weren't for the hardships the company is going through now, we probably would've chosen that over the other options out there. There's definitely room for tons of cooperation from the 2 states, but we also want garintees that no one will pressure either Egypt or India to cease cooperation and sharing of advanced technologies. No strings attached basically. We go through this every now and then...they're Indian projects at the end of the day so they have the final say on what goes on with them

 

[indushek]

We just need a heli project that can be comparable to that of the ah 64 apache helicopter since we want to reduce dependency on the US while maintaining equal military capabilities. I forgot about the rudra to be honest, the gazelle can be used for training purposes so we don't just throw them away wholesale. I personally don't see egypt throwing away the mi 17s just because its the work horse of the transportation department for the helicopter fleet. We also have the Chinooks that we plan to upgrade as well, since egypt is the most populated arabic speaking nation, its best for them to keep as much of their transport varients as possible, imrh could be supplementary in this matter. Mi 24 hinds and ka 52 alligator are staying in egyptian service for a long time. You also have the denel rouivalk from South Africa, and if it weren't for the hardships the company is going through now, we probably would've chosen that over the other options out there. There's definitely room for tons of cooperation from the 2 states, but we also want garintees that no one will pressure either Egypt or India to cease cooperation and sharing of advanced technologies. No strings attached basically. We go through this every now and then...they're Indian projects at the end of the day so they have the final say on what goes on with them

We don't have a Apache class helicopter right now, but there is a IMRH program afoot. A joint production for the engine with Safran just got signed, so it will happen.

It could work out well for both of us, and I agree the projects should be without any external pressure. Let us see how far our cooperation goes, its just baby steps for now.

 

[Faceless]

We just need a heli project that can be comparable to that of the ah 64 apache helicopter

There are plans for an armed variant of IMRH that would be comparable to AH 64 infact it would be beneficial for Egypt to join the IMRH project if that's the case.
One of the biggest hurdle in most Indian projects is funding so if Egypt can fund the IMRH project it could be a great area of cooperation, India already has almost all the technologies needed for the IMRH and has matured them on HAL Dhruv

the gazelle can be used for training purposes so we don't just throw them away wholesale

Obviously, no country will just throw away their old inventory, but the fact remains that those gazelles are old and will not remain fit for active service after a few years

I personally don't see egypt throwing away the mi 17s just because its the work horse of the transportation department for the helicopter fleet.

Well India also operates Mi 17s and we will start replacing them with IMRH by 2030's so I thought Egypt will also follow a similar timeline.
So If Egypt decides to follow a similar timeline there is a great chance for cooperation in the IMRH project

Mi 24 hinds and ka 52 alligator are staying

Ka 52 are still relatively new so yeah they would be staying, not so sure about the Hinds though

but we also want garintees that no one will pressure either Egypt or India to cease cooperation and sharing of advanced technologies. No strings attached basically

India has no skin in any of Egypt's conflicts so unlike the Americans we have no incentive to have strings attached with our weapons sold to Egypt.
Infact Our Helicopter division is entirely free from any kind of export restrictions or sanction from any country, almost all of the critical parts of our helicopters are Indigenous except the engines.

however we are working on an indigenous HTSE 1200 engine for Dhruv and a brand new IMRH's engine that would be co devloped with the French with the 2 countries having equal IP rights to it and would not be able to veto each other's sales

 

[Gomig-21]

I've read an article about a year or 2 back saying that the Indian rafales apparently are the "f5" version with a new helmet upgrade.

F5 version!? Wow. I think it's the F3R and I'm not sure about this, but I think their HMDS is likely the Israeli Trojan or maybe a domestic version. I think the Indian Rafale was likely delivered with nuclear launching capabilities, which might be what @BON PLAN was referring to as far as the Indian version having fuller capabilities than the Qatari and Egyptian Rafales. I doubt the Hellenic ones have the nuke caps since Greece is under the NATO nuclear umbrella shield and a member of the NPT (ratified) just like Turkiye. I hope we get better clarification on the other differences because otherwise, I don't see why the "Arab" Rafales would be any less capable than the Indian or Greek ones other than carrying nukes for the latter two and the Indian ones are F3Rs, whereas Qatar & Egypt are F3s.

Should the sukhoi deal collapse, you can be rest assured the meteor is coming with the new f4 rafales along with the extra micas and scalp missles, egypt isn't playing easy ball anymore and for good reason.

I'm 99.9999999 percent sure the Su-35 deal is kaput, bro. Hate to say it since it pisses me off to no end. But it is what it is and let's hope the next batch of F4s have meteors stuck to them! lol Enough is enough of these silly games they're playing this crap can't go on forever.

Tejas can be a very good investment for egyptian know-how for military testing and production capabilities, the Indians may be able to do something were egypt can source out different spare parts from different nations like France and South Korea. Speaking of military domestic sufficiency, the hal lch and druv copters are a good start for hands on experience where egypt can manufacture its own heli in the distant future, heck maybe egypt and India could potentially do a joint venture project deal with the arjun tank, yea its not the best by a long shot, but if India was to go back to the project, then they already have enough experience to improve on the previous upgraded model of the arjun mk2. Egypt casts its own hulls for the abrams I believe, if not the turrets. AND india is producing its own 800mm apfsds sabot rounds for the arjun as well. Not to mention they'd want to capitalize on all their domestic products to further advertise and compete with other more experienced sellers on the international weapons market, so it would be in their best interests to stick with their mbt project too. I can see an arjun mk3 with all the good gadgets for modern warfare but at a way steeper price compared to leclercs and even Leo mbts. Armenia has or is going to sign a few military deals with India since Russia isn't stepping in the Caucasus region but rather monitoring unfolding events there from a distance

Agree completely. India would make a great partner and the EGY military could learn a lot from the Indians, not only in technical matters, but how to stay the hell out of the R&D process and allow the privatization of the local industry. Tall order but doable. I also think they need to bring China into the loop, big time. So much from the East that could be beneficial considering the limitations imposed by the US and the west, with the exception of France and maybe a little bit of Germany.

India and Egypt did work on some fighter jet in the past, I can't remember which it was but we did.

Too bad the shameful 1967 war caused the end of this great endeavor, despite it being a joint collaboration and not 100% Egyptian. Still, one can only imagine where they would be at today had this program continued to develop.

Egypt also buys weapons from Russia, so for every dollar paid, you get the best available. Egypt refused to buy the MIG-35 until after obtaining the R-77ME missile.

I thought it was the Zhuk-AE AESA radar that they were waiting for to accept the MiG-35? Besides, that guy Tom Cooper was quoted in an article a while ago that the EAF's contract for the 46 MiG-29M/M2s was also contingent on the Russians replacing the current Zhuk-ME pulse doppler radar with the Zhuk-AE AESA radar, but they haven't been able to finish its development, hence the EAF not pursuing the MiG-35.

If I'm not mistaken, the Indian Air Force had to deal with the same issue on their MiG-29UPG or K models, not sure which but I'm pretty sure they were also waiting on the same radar replacement from the Russians and now are more likely looking for other options. EAF will have to do the same thing.

Speaking of the IAF, there is a valid reason to study why the Indians pulled out of the FGFA program with Russia. I do remember the main reason they had with the PAK-FA/Su-57 that seemed quite valid which inevitably makes one wonder about the total capability of the Su-57 (and Checkmate for that matter) compared to US-built stealth platforms. US stealth tech is unrivaled. That's just an undeniable fact but I also think there isn't much -- if any -- of other choices and Russia shouldn't hold back the high-end missiles. The aircraft can always be modified & upgraded & improve in many ways like the Ka-52s to make them as capable as possible.

Since this will never happen and we know it, only in CGI.

Even if it does, it would still be neutered, and its testacies shriveled up loool. Can only be used in certain airports and at certain times in certain airspaces only etc, etc. Ridiculous.

Although something still tells me that Russia did withhold the RVV-SD with the MiG-29M/M2s because of the scaredy cat chickens next door, but their restrictions are nothing compared to the ones the US imposes.

I know you've mentioned the EAF did order 300 of them, but we haven't seen them and have only seen the RVV-AE. Same with the R-73 and not the improved R-74.

India has no skin in any of Egypt's conflicts so unlike the Americans we have no incentive to have strings attached with our weapons sold to Egypt.

That's good to hear. I have to say, we do get a little apprehensive because of India's close relationship with our belligerent neighbor next door, so we can't help but think that they would benefit from "details" (for the lack of a better word) of Indian/Egyptian systems. Do you think there is good reason for that apprehension or is it just our paranoid delusions? LOL.

The Russians since 2013 offered Egypt all the series of fighters that they produce, and Egypt chose the most suitable for it MIG-29M & SU-35 and the best Russian ammunition she has

You don't think Netanyahu whispers in Putin's ears about the types of weapons it provides Egypt? I do. They're buddy/buddies and sit next to each other at the Moscow parade, not to mention the strong Jewish contingent in Russia that has a profound impact on the complicated relationship. Not to disagree with you just for the sake of disagreeing, but I honestly don't think the R-37M has been provided to the EAF. That would delude the Israelis into thinking they can nuke Russia!

Egypt did not contract for the second batch of Rafale fighters except on the condition of obtaining METEOR missiles and perhaps preliminary numbers from the French stockpile 10-20 missiles directly, as Greece requested, in addition to a large contract, besides that the Rafale will indeed be supplied with all Indian ammunition ASTRA-MK2/3 and RUDARM-2/ 3 , BRAHOMS-NG , SAAW

As far as the METEOR is concerned, I'll believe it when I see it OR, if there is an official statement released by MBDA. Other than that, it's only conjecture ya Sami. Has the EAF said anything about that? I haven't seen anything in local news. We've seen the METEOR on the Indian jets, the Greek jets and even the Qatari ones, but not on the EAF ones.

Just to be on the record; We know the EAF has the tendency to keep certain items from being introduced to the public foe a while such as the TOR & BUK and they also hid the Mi-24 Hinds for a while, but they eventually end up being shown. That's for the Russian stuff which Russia also doesn't announce publicly that they sold such and such to so and so, most likely at the EAF's request. But a corporation like MBDA & Dassault etc. announce everything in detail. That said, Dassault has already stated in their press release that they didn't supply the METEOR to Egypt at the Israelis' request. So we even have proof of the that. The day the Jews don't have anymore clout to influence such decision will be a joyous day.

The most important reason for Egypt to contract with Chinese fighter jets is the license to produce PL-15E missiles.

Which fighter jets, J-31?? More mix of aircraft? They already have to deal with western and Russian mixes. Adding another make will complicate things to no end. Plus do we know anything about the PL-15 and its testing results, let alone the PL-15E?

India has obtained a license to export ASRAAM BLOCK 6 missiles to countries that acquire LCA-TEJAS MK1A fighters without any restrictions from MBDA or England.

Well, if MBDA & Dassault do supply the METEOR with the new order of Rafales, then there shouldn't be any issues with supplying the ASRAAM through India unless the US sticks its nose into the deal, being that they do have a partial investment in the missile.

By reducing the weight by an additional 400 kilograms and reducing the radar signature of the nose of the plane, while working to reduce the prices of the LCA-MK1A plane and the ASTRA MK1 missile, and improving the range to 130 kilometers, all within the programs to promote the fighter to market it to Egypt and other countries.

Yep, I think the Tejas would work out well in the EAF.

 

[indushek]

F5 version!? Wow. I think it's the F3R and I'm not sure about this, but I think their HMDS is likely the Israeli Trojan or maybe a domestic version. I think the Indian Rafale was likely delivered with nuclear launching capabilities, which might be what @BON PLAN was referring to as far as the Indian version having fuller capabilities than the Qatari and Egyptian Rafales. I doubt the Hellenic ones have the nuke caps since Greece is under NATO nuclear umbrella shield and a member of the NPT (ratified) just like Turkiye. I hope we get better clarification on the other differences because otherwise, I don't see why the "Arab" Rafales would be any less capable than the Indian or Greek other than carrying nukes for the latter two and the Indian ones are F3Rs, whereas Qatar & Egypt are F3s.



I'm 99.9999999 percent sure the Su-35 deal is kaput, bro. Hate to say it since it pisses me off to no end. But it is what it is and let's hope the next batch of F4s have meteors stuck to them! lol Enough is enough of this silly games they're playing this crap can't go on forever.



Agree completely. India would make a great partner and the EGY military could learn a lot from the Indians, not only in technical matters, but how to say the hell out of the R&D process and how to privatize the local industry. Tall order but doable. I also think they need to bring China into the loop big time. So much from the East that could be beneficial considering the limitations imposed by the US and the west, with the exception of France and maybe a little bit of Germany.



View attachment 952645

Too bad the shameful 1967 war caused the end of this great endeavor, despite it being a joint effort and not 100% Egyptian. Still, one can only think of where they would be at today had it continued to develop the Egyptian fighter program.



I thought it was the Zhuk-AE AESA radar that they were waiting for to accept the MiG-35? Besides, that guy Tom Cooper was quoted in an article a while ago that the EAF's contract for the 46 MiG-39M/M2s was also contingent on the Russians replacing the current Zhuk-ME pulse doppler radar with the Zhuk-AE AESA radar, but they haven't been able to finish its development and hence the EAF not pursuing the MiG-35.

If I'm not mistaken, the same thing applied with the Indian Air Force and their MiG-29UPG or K models, not sure which but I'm pretty sure they were also waiting on the same radar replacement.

Speaking of the IAF, there is a valid reason to study why the Indians pulled out of the FGFA program with Russia. I do remember the specific issues they had with the PAK-FA/Su-57 that seemed quite valid which inevitably makes one wonder about the total capability of the Su-57 and Checkmate for that matter compared to US-built stealth platforms. US built stealth tech is unrivaled. It's just an undeniable fact but I also think that there isn't much -- if any -- other choice and Russia shouldn't hold back the high-end missiles and the aircraft can always be modified & upgraded in many ways like the Ka-52s to make them as good as possible.

Since this will never happen and we know it, only in CGI.

View attachment 952646

Would still be neutered and its testacies shriveled up loool.

Although something still tells me that Russia did withhold the RVV-SD with the MiG-29M/M2s because of the scaredy cat chickens next door.

I know you've mentioned the EAF did order 300 of them, but we haven't seen them and have only seen the RVV-AE. Same with the R-73 and not the improved R-74.



That's good to hear. I have to say, we do get a little apprehensive because of India's close relationship with our belligerent neighbor next door, so we can't help but think that they would benefit from "details" (for the lack of a better word) from Indian/Egyptian systems. Do you think there is good reason for that apprehension or is it just our paranoid delusions LOL.



You don't think Netanyahu whispers in Putin's ears about providing Russia's best ammunition? I do. They're buddy/buddies and sit next to each other at the Moscow parade, not to mention the strong Jewish contingent in Russia having an impact of the complicated relationship. Not to disagree with you just for the sake of disagreeing, but I honestly don't think the R-37M has been provided to the EAF. That would delude the Israelis into thinking the can nuke Russia!



As far as the METEOR is concerned, I'll believe it when I see it OR, if there is an official statement released by MBDA. Other than that, it's only conjecture ya Sami. Has the EAF said anything about that? I haven't seen anything in local news.



Which fighter jets, J-31?? More mix of aircraft? They already have to deal with western and Russian mixes. Adding another make will complicate things to no end. Plus do we know anything about the PL-15 and its testing results, let alone the PL-15?



Well, if MBDA & Dassault do supply the METEOR with the new order of Rafales, then there shouldn't be any issues with supplying the ASRAAM through India unless the US sticks its nose into the deal, being that they do have a partial investment in the missile.



Yep, I think the Tejas would work out well in the EAF.

You are right its F3R version given to India, but it has been reported that some 13 Indian specific enhancements were done for the 36 we brought.

France hands over 3 Rafale fighter jets with India-specific enhancements to IAF

In light of the Indian acquisition of Rafale, the Pakistani air force has decided to go for 25 Chinese made J-10 multi-role fighters as a counter and PLA Air Force has deployed the J-20, so called fifth generation fighter, at Hotan, Lhasa, Kashgar and Nyingchi air bases in Tibet and Sinkiang.

www.hindustantimes.com

These were done for the last of the 3 out of 36 first, and then supposed to be retrofitted on the earlier delivered planes this year.

So its not just the nuke delivery that has raised the cost of our Rafales, compared to Egyptian and Qatari Rafales. While there is the component of first time purchase components related to training and infra etc, these specific enhancements have shot up the price and caused lot of political crisis when the purchase happened.

At €7.8B, Why Indian Rafale Jets Are 'Double The Cost' Than Egyptian Rafales?

The sale of 30 Rafale fighter jets by France to Egypt has raised eyebrows in India. Earlier, France & India had signed a pact for 36 Rafale jets at double rate.

www.eurasiantimes.com

Rafale vs Rafale: Why Indian Rafale Jets Can 'Outflank' Egyptian, Qatari & Even The French Air Force Warplanes?

The Rafale guided by Indian indigenous GPS, for which the Rafale has installed with upgraded Sigma 95N. It is a high-performance navigation system designed for most demanding aeronautic applications that require excellent navigation and guidance accuracy.

www.eurasiantimes.com

I just checked, and it seems even the French are getting their F4.1 only from this year (think March or Jan it was).

 

[Faceless]

Indian Air Force and their MiG-29UPG or K models, not sure which but I'm pretty sure they were also waiting on the same radar replacement.

Yes there are plans for an Indian Radar Upgrade, it would be a scaled up version of uttam mk2 Radar.
Infact scalability was one of the most important parameter in the uttam project.

Speaking of the IAF, there is a valid reason to study why the Indians pulled out of the FGFA program with Russia. I do remember the specific issues they had with the PAK-FA/Su-57 that seemed quite valid which inevitably makes one wonder about the total capability of the Su-57 and Checkmate for that matter compared to US-built stealth platforms

Su-57 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction Su-57 is the first aircraft in Russian military service designed with stealth technology, it is intended to replace Su-27/30/35 family and server as the Russian answer to the American …

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Su 57 has a radar cross section of a 4.5 gen aircraft. Saying it's a 5th gen fighter would be a disgrace to actual 5th gen fighters, K FX has a lower cross section that this namesake 5th gen fighter.

IAF was fooled and taken advantage of by the Russians, we lost 300 million dollars to a fruitless endeavour, they wanted our money but did not want to share any substantial technology with us, our workshare was reduced to just assembly and we were not given any substantial role in the R&D,

That's good to hear. I have to say, we do get a little apprehensive because of India's close relationship with our belligerent neighbor next door, so we can't help but think that they would benefit from "details" (for the lack of a better word) from Indian/Egyptian systems. Do you think there is good reason for that apprehension or is it just our paranoid delusions LOL.

Well the only important Israeli part on Tejas are it's Radar and HMDS which will be replaced by Indian Uttam radar and Thales HMDS (HMDS will be replaced only if the user asks for it)
I won't say your doubts are unwarranted because there is some truth to the fact that Israel has certain amount of "details" of Tejas because they were a consultant in some of it's subsystems and Tejas used to have an Israeli radar afterall, but they are very much blown out of proportion, Access to Most of the important data and subsystems was kept confidential and no outsider had access to them, infact if I remember correctly this was a point of contention with the Israelis who were demanding access to more data for better understanding and rectifying the problems of the original MMR radar.

Well, if MBDA & Dassault do supply the METEOR with the new order of Rafales, then there shouldn't be any issues with supplying the ASRAAM through India unless the US sticks its nose into the deal, being that they do have a partial investment in the missile

Well, you can always go for R 73M not to mention we are working on Astra IR (a WVR IR homing missile based on Astra mk1).

 

[BON PLAN]

The French never sell inferior airplanes to anyone..(just check the EAF Mirage 2000)..

Absolutely no proof.
I really doubt Iraki F1 Mirage was on par with French ones.....
There are differents types of customers : very near and faithful one for decennials (Greece, India) : We probably deliver top rank weapons (mainly software and data bases). Little bit less reliable (UAE ?), And newer one of subject to alliance change (Qatar).
All are probably not on par, for exemple about the Spectra soft, and about the counter counter measures.

You are right its F3R version given to India, but it has been reported that some 13 Indian specific enhancements were done for the 36 we brought.

It is said in France than the Indian Std in somewhere between F3R and F4, and probably better on some points.

I think the Indian Rafale was likely delivered with nuclear launching capabilities

I'm not sure.
My bet is that we agreed India to install all the goodies necessary for their own nuclear weapons, with a technical help if needed to integrate it with the Rafale weapon system smoothly.

 

[Gomig-21]

You are right its F3R version given to India, but it has been reported that some 13 Indian specific enhancements were done for the 36 we brought.

France hands over 3 Rafale fighter jets with India-specific enhancements to IAF

In light of the Indian acquisition of Rafale, the Pakistani air force has decided to go for 25 Chinese made J-10 multi-role fighters as a counter and PLA Air Force has deployed the J-20, so called fifth generation fighter, at Hotan, Lhasa, Kashgar and Nyingchi air bases in Tibet and Sinkiang.

www.hindustantimes.com

Outstanding. Looking at those India-specific enhancements:

Although IAF remains tight-lipped over what India specific enhancements are on Rafale, it is learnt that these relate to long range Meteor air-to-air missile, low band frequency jammers, advanced communication systems, more capable radio altimeter, radar warning receiver, high altitude engine start up, synthetic aperture radar, ground moving target indicator and tracking, missile approach warning systems and very high frequency range decoys.
Being that SPECTRA already includes an RWR, a MAWS as well as an LWR, it's interesting to see that more capable systems than those were part of these enhancements. Also interesting would be the high frequency decoys. Sounds like the X-Guard fiber-optic towed decoy system they're referring to in one of the articles you linked.

The synthetic aperture radar is a nice addition to the RBE2-AA AESA radar. Spoiling the pilots with such goodies is always a good thing.

So its not just the nuke delivery that has raised the cost of our Rafales, compared to Egyptian and Qatari Rafales. While there is the component of first time purchase components related to training and infra etc, these specific enhancements have shot up the price and caused lot of political crisis when the purchase happened.

Understandable that there would be an uproar at the initial cost. Interesting that the software enhancements were the leading cause of the price difference.

Yes there are plans for an Indian Radar Upgrade, it would be a scaled up version of uttam mk2 Radar.
Infact scalability was one of the most important parameter in the uttam project.

That's good because we're not going to see the Zhuk-AE anytime soon, the way things are going with that whole ordeal. This is where Egypt is lagging a little behind. Even though we've produced excellent new ground radars, we wish they were already in the process of designing a new, modular AESA radar as well as its own missiles, too.

Su 57 has a radar cross section of a 4.5 gen aircraft. Saying it's a 5th gen fighter would be a disgrace to actual 5th gen fighters, K FX has a lower cross section that this namesake 5th gen fighter.

Some critics even push its RCS at over that of 4.5 gen aircraft. Sukhoi claims it's somewhere in the vicinity of between 0.1 and 1 m^2 but tough to validate that until we see enough testing results.

I don't blame India at all for backing out of the program and good thing it did it before it sunk in more than the $300 million. That's one of the main reasons I strongly support partnering up with India so we can learn how you assessed such factors and came up with the decision to move on. That would help the EAF determine where the Su-57 stands at now and possibly when it becomes completely operational. That will ultimately help determine whether it would fit in the EAF and if it would be worth the sacrifice that it would cause in terms of the US and CAATSA.

My issues with the jet have primarily been the lack of any weapons bays testing and other stealth factors. Even if the K77M hasn't been available until very recently, they still seem to be able to fit the standard missiles with those huge bays especially since it's gone into production already. So why haven't we seen any test firing with the exception of that one vertical flight and firing an R-73 from those wing pods it has? Other than that one instance, we've seen nothing.

The other part is the glass canopy. I look at the pic below and for the life of me, why didn't they design one that had a single glass bubble like the F-22 and opened with the complete surrounding frame? The Chinese did exactly that with their J-20 and the Russian came up with this? Way too much rear end frame (for non-frontal detection aspect) with a protruding rail separating the forward section. At least the one in the F-35 is less protruding and is inside the glass. And the circular IRST. Huge problem and a terrible decision to keep roughly the same design as the one on 4th gen AC particularly when it's clear as day that they designed this thing to carry most of its LO features in the frontal aspect. That IRST has to be a killer to that.

We don't really know what the avionics suite is in the Su-57 either. But judging by all the other features and where the Russians stand in terms of hard and software tech, I doubt it's anywhere near the that of the F-35 or even the F-22 and it doesn't need to be, really. But how good is it considering all the evidence already stacked up.

And of course, the complete lack of any form of RAM. Not sure if that's still in the making or not. Something tells me it isn't. Despite the brutal maintenance factor of RAM, it's still an essential element of low observability and the Russians seem to have completely ignored that. At least for now.

I remember reading in Combat Aircraft Magazine about 15 years ago looool, when they were first discussing the prospect of building a Russian counter to the F-22 and they asked the then Russian defense minister or someone like that what the significance of their stealthy design will be. He said (and I'll never forget this -- the PAK-FA will use plasma technology to make it practically invisible to enemy radar. I'm paraphrasing, but lol.

Despite really liking the overall design, I don't think it's anywhere near the capabilities of the F-35 and certainly not the F-22.

Well the only important Israeli part on Tejas are it's Radar and HMDS which will be replaced by Indian Uttam radar and Thales HMDS (HMDS will be replaced only if the user asks for it)
I won't say your doubts are unwarranted because there is some truth to the fact that Israel has certain amount of "details" of Tejas because they were a consultant in some of it's subsystems and Tejas used to have an Israeli radar afterall, but they are very much blown out of proportion, Access to Most of the important data and subsystems was kept confidential and no outsider had access to them, infact if I remember correctly this was a point of contention with the Israelis who were demanding access to more data for better understanding and rectifying the problems of the original MMR radar.

Love it! That's what we like the hear!

Well, you can always go for R 73M not to mention we are working on Astra IR (a WVR IR homing missile based on Astra mk1).

The thing is that in the EAF (and somewhat similarly to the IAF) there is the western tech and the Russian tech. So universal integration (on top of restricted weapons) is super difficult or nearly impossible. With the IAF, not only do you fellas enjoy the lack of restrictions from the west (for the most part), but you also have an impressive indigenous/domestic manufacturing base. That obviously makes for much easier overall integration when you can build missiles like the ASTRA or the UTAM radar and bring commonality in the important factors between the western and eastern AND indigenous platforms. That's a huuuugeaah asset which gives the Indian military high worldly ranking.

 

[Faceless]

Even though we've produced excellent new ground radars

Comparing Ground Radars to Airborne Radars would be wrong, because both operate on different band and thus need different types of hardware (TR modules) not to mention the algorithms that go into them are vastly different.
Sure making a ground radar allows a country to have the basic infrastructure to attempt to make other types of radars but the learning curve would be steep.

. Sukhoi claims it's somewhere in the vicinity of between 0.1 and 1 m^2 but tough to validate that until we see enough testing results.

The link in my earlier post has calculated the RCS of Su 57 very scientifically and gives us a general Idea of the RCS of Su 57, but it's very clear that it's not actually that stealthy

would fit in the EAF and if it would be worth the sacrifice that it would cause in terms of the US and CAATSA.

In my opinion Su 57 is not worth risking being sanctioned by US, unless you have no other choice and are a pariah state like Iran or Cuba.

So why haven't we seen any test firing with the exception of that one vertical flight and firing an R-73 from those wing pods it has? Other than that one instance, we've seen nothing.

I don't think it's that big of a deal, most probably the tests were kept confidential

why didn't they design one that had a single glass bubble like the F-22 and opened with the complete surrounding frame?

That's what I was thinking too, in my opinion it's most probably a cost saving measure or in the worst case scenario shows Russia's lack of access to advanced machining tools

And the circular IRST. Huge problem and a terrible decision to keep roughly the same design as the one on 4th gen AC particularly when it's clear as day that they designed this thing to carry most of its LO features in the frontal aspect.

I thought that IRST was retractable if not then it's a huge let down in my opinion, an IRST on a supposedly 5th gen platform is bad enough but a non retractable IRST is even worse,
Heck even we Indians have a retractable IRST then will go on Tejas mk2

We don't really know what the avionics suite is in the Su-57 either. But judging by all the other features and where the Russians stand in terms of hard and software tech, I doubt it's anywhere near the that of the F-35 or even the F-22 and it doesn't need to be, really. But how good is it considering all the evidence already stacked up.

For a country that has been unable to make a proper AESA Radar my hopes are very low, Russia doesn't have access to advanced processors and semiconductors restricting the computational capabilities of Russian fighters making their avionics suite inferior to American or European jets.

the complete lack of any form of RAM. Not sure if that's still in the making or not. Something tells me it isn't

That's not true, there are high quality Russian Research papers on RAMs indicating that Russia is indeed working on RAMs also recent photos of Su 57 show that RAM is indeed applied on Su 57. But I am unable to comprehend the rationale to paint the aircraft and reduce the absorbing quality of RAM.

He said (and I'll never forget this -- the PAK-FA will use plasma technology to make it practically invisible to enemy radar. I'm paraphrasing, but lol.

Well Russians are notorious for overstating their capabilities


Anyways I would recommend you to check on this video about su 57

it's very in-depth and easy to understand

 

[The SC]

Assault training with the Marines, the Combat Engineers Battalion, and the Egyptian Hostage Rescue Forces..

Uses of small drones..

A "US Army Soldier, with the 3rd Security Force Assistance Brigade, showcases the Dronebuster, a tool used for disabling unmanned aircraft systems, during counter UAS training at Mohamed Naguib Military Base, Egypt, September 6, 2023. #BrightStar23..

 

[Gomig-21]

Comparing Ground Radars to Airborne Radars would be wrong, because both operate on different band and thus need different types of hardware (TR modules) not to mention the algorithms that go into them are vastly different.

Oh for sure. My point was that the experience has a very strong foundation, from the times of war and the usage of so many types of radars and the recent production of excellent ground radars it should at least have made them dab into producing their own aircraft radars starting 30 years ago. Had they started then, they'd be sitting pretty by now, regardless of the differences.

That's not true, there are high quality Russian Research papers on RAMs indicating that Russia is indeed working on RAMs also recent photos of Su 57 show that RAM is indeed applied on Su 57. But I am unable to comprehend the rationale to paint the aircraft and reduce the absorbing quality of RAM.

"lack of any type of RAM" was too harsh of a comment from me, I agree. I'm still not convinced that that one aircraft in the video and exhibited at the last MAKS is anywhere near a quality RAM for several reasons. It's still very easy to spot visible seams and other imperfections.

It does look much better than the previous prototypes that have taken a beating from critics.

Perhaps we're a bit programmed to think the US method for RAM is ultimately the best and only way to go; there is some truth to that for obvious reasons. But reading about the materials and techniques and applications methods etc. the US has gone about using & applying RAM is impossible to ignore. It sets the precedent and rightfully so.

Granted that's not fair to use it as a standard -- and particularly in Russia's case -- since it's very difficult and super costly to maintain. We all know that goes against the Soviet/Russian principal of keeping manufacturing methods & costs at a certain level to facilitate quantitative production. The MiG-21 was a great and classic example of that concept and we're still seeing it with this Su-57. Question is, how do you compete with the higher quality?

At the same time, we can't help but make decisive comparisons. The way tape is applied to all non-removable panel seams and rivets/screws and even non-fastened seams, coupled with the tapered end joints on the moving surfaces (which we've started to see on the Checkmate) and then the finish product is too much to ignore.

And the greatness of the US is that they never stop looking for improvements. They've already come up with a new form of RAM that doesn't require the use of tape which reduces cost and maintenance. They're already researching advanced composites that make the joinery of most materials on an aircraft with adhesive only and taking out rivets and screws almost entirely lol. How do you compete with that? Heck, even the Chinese seem (no pun intended) to have mastered RAM with the impeccable looks of the finish product on the J-20. Could the Su-57 end up looking as good as this?

More of Bright Star.

Indian & Egyptian naval training using one of India's indigenous patrol ships in Alexandria. Alex is a beautiful city they must be having a lot of fun there.

Indian & Egyptian special forces paratroopers a freefall combat exercise from an EAF CASA C-295.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1699822739400409569

 

[Faceless]

Oh for sure. My point was that the experience has a very strong foundation, from the times of war and the usage of so many types of radars and the recent production of excellent ground radars it should at least have made them dab into producing their own aircraft radars starting 30 years ago. Had they started then, they'd be sitting pretty by now, regardless of the differences.

I completely agree that experience gives you a strong foundation infact in India's case although the orignal MMR radar of Tejas Failed to meet our requirements it was our experience in ground based radars that allowed us to even dare to attempt to build airborne Radars.

I'm still not convinced that that one aircraft in the video and exhibited at the last MAKS is anywhere near a quality RAM for several reasons. It's still very easy to spot visible seams and other imperfections.

Russian RAM is of inferior quality due to their inability to access high end machines needed for fabricating RAM coatings
My point being they have good quality research papers (theory) on RAM coatings but suck at manufacturing them (practical)

Perhaps we're a bit programmed to think the US method for RAM is ultimately the best and only way to go; there is some truth to that for obvious reasons

Well Americans Pioneered RAM so it makes sense people will try too emulate them

More of Bright Star.

Indian & Egyptian naval training using one of India's indigenous patrol ships in Alexandria. Alex is a beautiful city they must be having a lot of fun there.

Thanks for these beautiful pictures

 

[The SC]

 

[BON PLAN]

View attachment 953259

Is it a real pic or a photoshop one ?
First time I see a Rafale flying with 8 AAM. It was on the agenda, but not ready so far.

 

[indushek]

Outstanding. Looking at those India-specific enhancements:

Although IAF remains tight-lipped over what India specific enhancements are on Rafale, it is learnt that these relate to long range Meteor air-to-air missile, low band frequency jammers, advanced communication systems, more capable radio altimeter, radar warning receiver, high altitude engine start up, synthetic aperture radar, ground moving target indicator and tracking, missile approach warning systems and very high frequency range decoys.
Being that SPECTRA already includes an RWR, a MAWS as well as an LWR, it's interesting to see that more capable systems than those were part of these enhancements. Also interesting would be the high frequency decoys. Sounds like the X-Guard fiber-optic towed decoy system they're referring to in one of the articles you linked.

The synthetic aperture radar is a nice addition to the RBE2-AA AESA radar. Spoiling the pilots with such goodies is always a good thing.



Understandable that there would be an uproar at the initial cost. Interesting that the software enhancements were the leading cause of the price difference.



That's good because we're not going to see the Zhuk-AE anytime soon, the way things are going with that whole ordeal. This is where Egypt is lagging a little behind. Even though we've produced excellent new ground radars, we wish they were already in the process of designing a new, modular AESA radar as well as its own missiles, too.



Some critics even push its RCS at over that of 4.5 gen aircraft. Sukhoi claims it's somewhere in the vicinity of between 0.1 and 1 m^2 but tough to validate that until we see enough testing results.

I don't blame India at all for backing out of the program and good thing it did it before it sunk in more than the $300 million. That's one of the main reasons I strongly support partnering up with India so we can learn how you assessed such factors and came up with the decision to move on. That would help the EAF determine where the Su-57 stands at now and possibly when it becomes completely operational. That will ultimately help determine whether it would fit in the EAF and if it would be worth the sacrifice that it would cause in terms of the US and CAATSA.

My issues with the jet have primarily been the lack of any weapons bays testing and other stealth factors. Even if the K77M hasn't been available until very recently, they still seem to be able to fit the standard missiles with those huge bays especially since it's gone into production already. So why haven't we seen any test firing with the exception of that one vertical flight and firing an R-73 from those wing pods it has? Other than that one instance, we've seen nothing.

The other part is the glass canopy. I look at the pic below and for the life of me, why didn't they design one that had a single glass bubble like the F-22 and opened with the complete surrounding frame? The Chinese did exactly that with their J-20 and the Russian came up with this? Way too much rear end frame (for non-frontal detection aspect) with a protruding rail separating the forward section. At least the one in the F-35 is less protruding and is inside the glass. And the circular IRST. Huge problem and a terrible decision to keep roughly the same design as the one on 4th gen AC particularly when it's clear as day that they designed this thing to carry most of its LO features in the frontal aspect. That IRST has to be a killer to that.

View attachment 952781

We don't really know what the avionics suite is in the Su-57 either. But judging by all the other features and where the Russians stand in terms of hard and software tech, I doubt it's anywhere near the that of the F-35 or even the F-22 and it doesn't need to be, really. But how good is it considering all the evidence already stacked up.

And of course, the complete lack of any form of RAM. Not sure if that's still in the making or not. Something tells me it isn't. Despite the brutal maintenance factor of RAM, it's still an essential element of low observability and the Russians seem to have completely ignored that. At least for now.

I remember reading in Combat Aircraft Magazine about 15 years ago looool, when they were first discussing the prospect of building a Russian counter to the F-22 and they asked the then Russian defense minister or someone like that what the significance of their stealthy design will be. He said (and I'll never forget this -- the PAK-FA will use plasma technology to make it practically invisible to enemy radar. I'm paraphrasing, but lol.

Despite really liking the overall design, I don't think it's anywhere near the capabilities of the F-35 and certainly not the F-22.



Love it! That's what we like the hear!



The thing is that in the EAF (and somewhat similarly to the IAF) there is the western tech and the Russian tech. So universal integration (on top of restricted weapons) is super difficult or nearly impossible. With the IAF, not only do you fellas enjoy the lack of restrictions from the west (for the most part), but you also have an impressive indigenous/domestic manufacturing base. That obviously makes for much easier overall integration when you can build missiles like the ASTRA or the UTAM radar and bring commonality in the important factors between the western and eastern AND indigenous platforms. That's a huuuugeaah asset which gives the Indian military high worldly ranking.

Yes and I feel its directed for use of these aircraft, on our Eastern front facing China more than the West.

The high altitude engine start points towards that, as most of the airfields there are very high above sea level. SAR too helps given the atmosphere there I believe, for day and night detection capability.

The terrain on that side is very difficult to operate aircrafts.