Egyptian Armed Forces

[Gomig-21]

A lot of things have been abandoned.

From personal experience I can tell you that combat first aid is not on the curriculum anymore and attempts to treat casualties in the Sinai currently are all being done by civilian first responders or by soldiers improvising.

You can see from the soldiers stationed there themselves there's little to no sign of combat first aid procedures. No tourniquets in arm pockets or on chest rigs, no field dressings in leg pockets, and no medical pouches.

Most are left to fend for themselves unfortunately.

Ok, so we've actually known that's been a deficiency for a while now. Does that mean that the specific Sa'aqa trooper's gear is "extremely poor"? It can use some help but it's far from that description and IMO, the issues are primarily on a much larger scope.

There hasn't been a single case of forward aeromedical evacuation during Operation Sinai. The hospitals used to treat the injured are mainly situated within the heart of Arish, Shiekh Zewaid, and Rafah. So they can't be serviced by helicopters in the first place.

The Egyptian Army relies on civilian first response to attacks. Many ambulances and medics have been targeted in the wake of IS attacks as well because they know full well they're carrying soldiers.

I realize that and that is a major element that has been a deficiency for a long time now. The fact that they don't have equivalent of an army or naval medic corps is beyond belief, especially with the money, experience and access to practically the entire Egyptian industry that they have. Not to mention abundant access to foreign training and services. We haven't had any disagreement in that regard. But this is also a separate issue than what got us into this whole discussion although it does have an impact and is related to the individual soldier for sure.

As far as Sinai is concerned, they've been influenced by its logistics and the proximity of hospitals that they think this is the better way to handle casualties and their transport. Even if the civilian transport and ambulances are protected during travel, it's not a good solution to the deficiency, I agree.

Here's an interesting point that hopefully might force them to start the formation of a dedicated medic corps: The Type-209 sub has a sickbay and part of makeup of the submariners on duty is to have a qualified corpsman (doctor.) That leads to having the ability to not only treat minor trauma and health issues, but to stabilize individuals for evacuation from sea which means they need to have a dedicated, maritime evac helo/corps. In this case for the Egyptian Navy, the Sea King would work perfectly. This is an absolute must and no-brainer that we should be seeing them.

Unfortunately I don't think I have seen any of the EAF's Sea Kings operating we rescue hoists for 'at sea' missions, just like the RAF and many more operators use.

With the Type-209 having a sickbay and a qualified medic in-crew is a MUST, it brings us to the even larger platform in the Mistral which actually has a full-fledged 70-man hospital on board. If this doesn't get at least the navy to start inducting a fully trained medical corp...not sure what will.

1

Their equipment does not allow for effective communication between themselves and others which also includes a general lack of encrypted coms beyond a certain level which is usually at Coy rather than Platoon or even Section level.

The average set up is a two way radio issued to the Platoon Commander and one NCO. Now when working with different arms or with CAS which is daily in the Sinai it presents a rather problematic challenge, especially that the role of Radio Operator is pretty much defunct and JTACs don't exist.

Whilst working with each other it means you have to use an archaic system of runners to relay messages which takes time and is vulnerable. Meaning commanders won't have a clear picture of the battlefield and will avoid splitting their sections. Personal Role Radios are not on issue to anyone.

We all saw the consequences of crap coms during the Wahat ambush and it has been happening in the Sinai too.

Still, that's a much broader issue than the particular equipment on the individual soldier. Issuing 2-way radios to the platoon commander and an NCO is pretty standard since that's how orders are channeled through command and down to those particular individuals and then they verbally direct the rest of the members in their units.

Are you're saying that radio operators don't exist? And that they don't have any form of JTAC for CAS or any other aircraft they're operating with? Honestly, I find that very hard to believe. 1973 radio ops worked very well on the battlefield.

We know there are some major disciplinarian issues that they have and many of these problems they've encountered have been a direct result of that lack of discipline from the top down. Again, though, this is a much broader issue than the individual soldier's equipment.

2

A lack of protective equipment that can be scaled or changed to suit their mission and a lack of certain essential protective equipment.

This includes eye, ear, and groin protection. They're also not provided with side plates. The point is not to overburden soldiers with PPE but to have the right PPE for the job and avoid chronic damage to ears/eyes.

Too many IED cas have groin related injuries.

Also, no helmet mounted IR IFF modules for when working with CAS or anything with a FLIR. Friendly fire is never reported but should always be avoided.

We can also include vital medical equipment into here. Including a lack of stretchers of various kinds.

Ok, I will definitely give you that. We agree on the majority of the items you brought up except for maybe eye protection. We see many of them with protective eye gear or safety glasses and I'm not sure those are standard issued items versus items that they're responsible for individually. The ones that are given goggles are obviously issued but if they need safety glasses, if I'm not mistaken, even the US military, French military soldiers etc. usually provide their own safety glasses.

In the case of the pic that started this whole thing, guy had a helmet on with a mounted eye-piece so he should have safety glasses or his issued goggles tucked away.

3

A lack of modular load bearing equipment. Whether that be in marching order or fighting order. The point again is not to overburden the soldier but to provide means to carry loads based on the scales required for a certain mission.

So when operating like they do in the Sinai with a lot of logistical support they can fight light but when say inserting behind enemy lines or assaulting they can adequately carry a larger load.

That means the provision of equipment that provides greater utility, ergonomics, and comfort. Something the current CBA could provide but not utilising it properly (many don't even wear it correctly) means it doesn't.

Are you saying they're not issued backpacks with full needed gear for missions where they need to carry larger loads? What was the backpack behind him in that picture? And all the ones with the paras waiting to be transported? Sorry ma bro, I don't buy that.

I think what's lacking is the disciplinarian aspect of what we're talking about.

4

Specialist equipment

Egypt is several generations behind in NVG, thermal equipment, and target indication equipment like laser light modules.

Disagree in that it isn't really needed. The night is one area where Sinai Province have a weakness, it is also an area where Egyptian forces have no taken advantage.

Specialist equipment is also including grenades (flash bangs and smoke) and breaching equipment. Both essential when operating in a urban environment. This includes a lack of explosive entry equipment. Outside of SF no one really uses any of this.

Plus Claymores for when in a defensive position would be great. But not issued.

I'll give you those. Can't disagree with you there, especially with night vision and laser equipment. The brass needs to up their game with providing this stuff and especially in the training and disciplinarian accept. More simulation training with much better simunition equipment etc. Units like 777 and the newly formed ones especially need to get up on those.

I could probably go into way more detail and add more stuff but for the sake of brevity I won't. The point is their equipment is poor and we shouldn't defend it.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, it's just that I think it was a bit unfair to label that specific trooper's equipment as 'extremely poor' and considering that after discussing all this, it's a bit lacking and that the major problems are on a much broader scale even though it does eventually trickle down to the soldier himself eventually.

And far be it for me to defend anything just for the sake that it's Egyptian. If you remember there was hardly any constructive criticism on this thread until yours truly showed up and brought up several things, mainly disciplinarian issues.

I get that most Egyptians don't know what they're looking at so go based off of what is cool. I don't really care if they look like those uber ally SEAL photoshoots or like some Baltic soldiers in Afghanistan as long as essential kit is brought it and used properly.

Would also caution using their historical role as an excuse. Roles do and should change, we are not fighting the last war, we are fighting this one and the next. We have already seen decades of stagnation result in roles becoming redundant yet persevering within the Armed Forces. Egyptian SF and SOF as a whole are a good example of that.

Roles definitely change I agree, and we're seeing it happen right in front of our eyes. At the same time they can't lose sight of what is their essential role. What they need to do is adapt to these changes and it really comes down to the brass and their responsibilities. For all they've done that's been excellent, they've missed a few things and really, they're the ones that need to be held accountable.

 

[Gomig-21]

@DESERT FIGHTER , is this along the same lines of what you did?

Members of the Egyptian Ministry of the Interior armed with Beretta 70/90 assault rifles during their participation in United Nations peacekeeping forces.

Unit 777 counter-terrorism and hostage rescue team with their Bahraini counterparts.

Navy SOF during Gulf Shield 1

 

[Gomig-21]

 

[Mhmoud]

We haven't seen those Abrams in a while. It seems as if they vanished after 2011.

Paired with Egyptian-made T-90s, nobody would want to mess with Egypt.

By the way, I think that the T-90 deal had the workings of a genius. Egypt has a really heavy tank, and lots and lots of light armoured vehicles, as well as some older medium tanks. However, the modern battlefield beckons something that can counter modern anti-armour infantry, but without becoming too costly like the Abrams. In other countries, this would be a heavy IFV, like the CV-90 and the M2 Bradley, which are probably out of Egypt's reach. So a T-90, which has shown that it can withstand hits from TOWs, can take the role slightly heavier than the heavy IFV while being cheap and not all that too hopeless should an enemy tank appear from nowhere.

It also has missiles that can hit helicopters (a threat to Israeli Apaches and Sudanese Hinds), with a range of 5 km. The manufacturing deal will probably include APS and optics and other equipment the Americans render "sensitive tech", which means that should push come to shove certain parts from the T-90 line can substitute the parts for the Abrams. If Trophy can fit the Abrams, then so can Shtora and Arena.

Also, the more lax attitude of the Russians might allow us to move on to an indigenous project after a while, as they are a lot less restrictive with tech transfers.

 

[Harpcore_lover]

@DESERT FIGHTER , is this along the same lines of what you did?

Members of the Egyptian Ministry of the Interior armed with Beretta 70/90 assault rifles during their participation in United Nations peacekeeping forces.

Unit 777 counter-terrorism and hostage rescue team with their Bahraini counterparts.

Navy SOF during Gulf Shield 1

Your thread you and frogman is just fascinating so informative and great.
I have a few questions tho,
Is there is a possibility that the problems mentioned above is all rated to funding? And something else, regarding our tank crew, are they efficient? Thanks guys.

 

[Gomig-21]

Your thread you and frogman is just fascinating so informative and great.

Froggy and I have had our disagreements before, but always discuss them with respect whether right or wrong. To me, that's the best part, and of course people reading and enjoying and participating.

Is there is a possibility that the problems mentioned above is all rated to funding?

I really don't think so. The Egyptian army has plenty of money. Besides the billions they generate every year or which is allocated through the local economy, the $1.3 billion from the US could easily allocate a small portion of that for selecting equipment to all the different units, start a local production and commission a special training program through the US military or any other. The problem starts at the top. It's in the leadership.

There's an old saying: "when the battle is lost, the general shall be beheaded."

And something else, regarding our tank crew, are they efficient? Thanks guys.

I think the same training issues exist. I'm not sure what the extent of the training is and how much outside influence in the training levels takes place or what the tanks school curriculum involves, hard to tell.

Who knows what kind of effects the T-90s purchase is going to have on an entire fleet of American tanks and training, not to mention different types of munitions, coms, logistical support like a different type of fuel and HET transport and the effects of having lesser tank crews per tank on workload etc. But maybe they've been put in a situation where the Abrams wasn't going anywhere anymore and their hands were forced. Those would have to be extenuating circumstances for that to happen though.

EAF Block 52 pilots.

 

[Harpcore_lover]

Froggy and I have had our disagreements before, but always discuss them with respect whether right or wrong. To me, that's the best part, and of course people reading and enjoying and participating.



I really don't think so. The Egyptian army has plenty of money. Besides the billions they generate every year or which is allocated through the local economy, the $1.3 billion from the US could easily allocate a small portion of that for selecting equipment to all the different units, start a local production and commission a special training program through the US military or any other. The problem starts at the top. It's in the leadership.

There's an old saying: "when the battle is lost, the general shall be beheaded."



I think the same training issues exist. I'm not sure what the extent of the training is and how much outside influence in the training levels takes place or what the tanks school curriculum involves, hard to tell.

Who knows what kind of effects the T-90s purchase is going to have on an entire fleet of American tanks and training, not to mention different types of munitions, coms, logistical support like a different type of fuel and HET transport and the effects of having lesser tank crews per tank on workload etc. But maybe they've been put in a situation where the Abrams wasn't going anywhere anymore and their hands were forced. Those would have to be extenuating circumstances for that to happen though.

EAF Block 52 pilots.

So discipline is pretty much lacked in our military and it's pretty much catastrophic apparently.

 

[Mhmoud]

@Gomig-21 and @Frogman, I think that you are comparing trains and planes.

Western armies are mainly of the expeditionary types, the types that bring the fight to the enemy's door, rather than fight in their homeland, and as a result, must have body armour, the best weapons and first aid, as you can't count on some civilian shooting your back, or on an ambulance arriving to help your soldiers. So they spend exorbitant amounts of money in order to train and equip them with the best of the best. However, all Egypt's army has to do is protect the homeland, which means that the first aid is swapped out for the ambulance, and body armour isn't always needed in checkpoints, etc. Price-wise, if you equip 500k soldiers with vests costing $3k, then you've already blown away $1.5 bln, or 15 Rafales. And there is also the question of your conscripts actually taking care of the equipment. First aid kits can be distributed pretty fast in times of mass mobilisation and don't cost much, but are still unnecessary.

The Egyptian Army must also hold this delicate balance, as do all of the other armies in Middle Eastern dictatorships. They must be strong enough to defend the country, while also being weak enough to allow for the Presidential Guard to hold them off for long enough should a coup d'etat happen. The Presidential Guard is the creme de la creme, and are even better equipped than the Western armies. They also, in the case of Egypt, build buildings, infrastructure, and man factories, which keep the prices low for the population. If you consider all these, the equipment does not actually matter much, as long as Egypt has the capacity to rapidly mass-produce such equipment, which it probably has. So why waste a ton of money and a coup if you can just fetch the thing should the situation arise?

 

[Gomig-21]

@Gomig-21 and @Frogman, I think that you are comparing trains and planes.

Western armies are mainly of the expeditionary types, the types that bring the fight to the enemy's door, rather than fight in their homeland, and as a result, must have body armour, the best weapons and first aid, as you can't count on some civilian shooting your back, or on an ambulance arriving to help your soldiers. So they spend exorbitant amounts of money in order to train and equip them with the best of the best. However, all Egypt's army has to do is protect the homeland, which means that the first aid is swapped out for the ambulance, and body armour isn't always needed in checkpoints, etc. Price-wise, if you equip 500k soldiers with vests costing $3k, then you've already blown away $1.5 bln, or 15 Rafales. And there is also the question of your conscripts actually taking care of the equipment. First aid kits can be distributed pretty fast in times of mass mobilisation and don't cost much, but are still unnecessary.

The Egyptian Army must also hold this delicate balance, as do all of the other armies in Middle Eastern dictatorships. They must be strong enough to defend the country, while also being weak enough to allow for the Presidential Guard to hold them off for long enough should a coup d'etat happen. The Presidential Guard is the creme de la creme, and are even better equipped than the Western armies. They also, in the case of Egypt, build buildings, infrastructure, and man factories, which keep the prices low for the population. If you consider all these, the equipment does not actually matter much, as long as Egypt has the capacity to rapidly mass-produce such equipment, which it probably has. So why waste a ton of money and a coup if you can just fetch the thing should the situation arise?

While I agree with most of your points, expeditionary army of not, Egypt is still a relatively large land mass with a considerable war on terror happening ATM and some of the areas of importance are not only near El Arish and Sheikh Zweid City or central Sinai and some urban environments, some of it is further out in remote areas not to mention way out in the western desert and the Libyan border. These areas are not easily accessible for medic evacuations which is why there needs to be a medic corps. I'm much in agreement with Froggy on that issue being lacking in that even if local civilian ambulatory services are used to transport wounded soldiers, the soldiers' training is severely lacking in that respect where they don't have the necessary training and kits to stabilize wounded soldiers until help arrives. Even that part needs to be there whether there is a medic transport corps or not and it isn't. Many instances where wounded parties from RPG blasts and fragmentation wounds and bleeding out could've saved lives if the training and kits were available and most of all, if an armed medic corps could get there rapidly by air to save the day instead of waiting for in-traffic civie response.

Then there's the issue of being at sea. What about the Mistral and its role? If they picked a pair of them that means they will be performing expeditionary missions to some extent and what happens then? Out at sea.

There are many, many areas in Egypt where there can be trouble and that are far far far away from reach of any civie hospital.

And what about at times of war? Your point about mobilizing is good. But there needs to be a current structure that allows for fluid participation of reserve doctors into the medic corps during immediate mobilization for war and there is no such thing, at least that I'm aware of because if there was, we would've seen military vehicles, helos and even certain aircraft donning the red recent and we haven't. They do use Chinooks and AW-139s but it's just not enough for a huge military like Egypt. They also use C-130s and CASAs but, it's kind of a mishmash operation. During war, having a well-trained and effective medic corps can be the difference between 4/5 KIA and 1/5.

I do agree on the vest and the cost of issuing it to all soldiers, but there in lies the problem. The attitude that the soldier isn't worth it? I think if we look strictly at that phenomenon, we can solve a lot of the other existing problems. Certain things like night vision and laser scopes and full vests don't need to be issued to all and that was my point with the Sa'aka's equipment not deserving of being labelled extremely poor.

You're also right about the republican guard, but not the strictly relegated to dictatorships part. The concept is right along with what many countries adopt such as the National Guard in the US. The concept of the Egyptian RG was based on the Soviet Republican Guard when it was created. They also run a lot of the ceremonial duties and things of that sort so when you say they're only there to defend dictators from coups is not entirely accurate.

Wide array of fighter jets ranging from F-5s, JF-17s, F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, Tornados to Typhoons hosted at RSAF King Abdulaziz AFB for Gulfshield 1 joint exercise.

 

[Gomig-21]

M-24 sniper rifle fitted with an AN/PVS-4 locally-made scope.

 

[Harpcore_lover]

M-24 sniper rifle fitted with an AN/PVS-4 locally-made scope.

Hey bruv pardon me if what I'm about to say ain't related to the thread but I was reading about the "sepah" corps of the Iranian military and thought to ask, iranis don't boast a stronger military than ours right?
I think they don't, their airforce is a joke, their local indigenous designs are a joke as well, I Mean look at their tanks and jets or even submarines.
Pretty bad.
So what ya think about it?

 

[Mhmoud]

Hey bruv pardon me if what I'm about to say ain't related to the thread but I was reading about the "sepah" corps of the Iranian military and thought to ask, iranis don't boast a stronger military than ours right?
I think they don't, their airforce is a joke, their local indigenous designs are a joke as well, I Mean look at their tanks and jets or even submarines.
Pretty bad.
So what ya think about it?

The sanctions and Iran-Iraq war hit them pretty hard. They have F-14s and F-4s, but couldn't get the parts for them, so had to make them themselves. Also, according to their forum, they make a lot of comms equipment and other things. Their Karrar MBT might just be a way for them to acquire T-90MS without breaking the arms embargo. They do locally make knockoffs of almost every Western rifle and missile, including, recently, the AIM-9 and the Spike.

I wouldn't say that their forces are rubbish, but they aren't in the same tier as Egypt, and their industry does have some solid foundations.

 

[Gomig-21]

Gulf shield continues. EAF F-16 with an ACMI pod and a rare shot of one with a JF-17 in the background.

 

[Harpcore_lover]

The sanctions and Iran-Iraq war hit them pretty hard. They have F-14s and F-4s, but couldn't get the parts for them, so had to make them themselves. Also, according to their forum, they make a lot of comms equipment and other things. Their Karrar MBT might just be a way for them to acquire T-90MS without breaking the arms embargo. They do locally make knockoffs of almost every Western rifle and missile, including, recently, the AIM-9 and the Spike.

I wouldn't say that their forces are rubbish, but they aren't in the same tier as Egypt, and their industry does have some solid foundations.

Yeah I would say they are prspre below

Yeah I would say they are prspre below

Pretty below my bad

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Egyptian F-16 & Pakistani JF-17 Block II- Gulf Shield;

Oh com'on. You can do better than that. Here's the thing: there's a HUGE misconception about the Sa'aka's role. Their tagged as a SOF branch of the military that is fighting in this new, post-Iraq/Afghanistan COIN-style warfare when they aren't anything of the sort. They're actually a type of unit that is in between SOF and regular infantry, that's it! Their role is based on that unit's successes in 1973 in what is conventional warfare in wide open Egyptian landscape. Their training is (or at least used to be back in my day) absolutely brutal and another reason why you see nothing but very physically fit fellas. But because of that misconception, people tend to think that they need to look like this!

Or like this:

Maybe this would be cool!

They don't have to be like the west, they have their own terrain and environment and threats and especially their own support. They need to do what's right for them and they don't need to be stacked when it's photo op time. Almost 99% of the time they're operating with a substantial logistical support and not dropped off by helo in some remote spot away from everything for days and days even though penetrating behind enemy lines is one of their tasks, they have their gear for those missions if you look at the pic and the big backpack each one of them has for their gear when it's mission time. I think the problem is we don't see them with their vest that's wrapped with all sorts of pouches that include medical kits, scissors, mags and canteens etc. I don't think they necessarily don't have those.

When it's time to get down and dirty, they're suited for their role. which is really not SF.

That pic of the paras you posted is more of a disciplinary thing. One of them had his vest on and the others didn't bother putting it on lol. Kinda like this with the Sa'aka.

So you would like to see all the paras kitted out like these guys anytime a photo of them is taken?

Remember this?



Thunderbolts are not special forces as everyone knows the term and while I think they definitely need better kits and understanding their disciplinarian role a bit better is a must, but I don't think they need to mimic any other western force just to look like them or for people to think that they're on the right track. They need to do what's right for them working in the environment, landscape and threats to Egypt.

In short they are like Egyptian Version of 75th Rangers or Pak Light Commando Battalions.

While I agree with most of your points, expeditionary army of not, Egypt is still a relatively large land mass with a considerable war on terror happening ATM and some of the areas of importance are not only near El Arish and Sheikh Zweid City or central Sinai and some urban environments, some of it is further out in remote areas not to mention way out in the western desert and the Libyan border. These areas are not easily accessible for medic evacuations which is why there needs to be a medic corps. I'm much in agreement with Froggy on that issue being lacking in that even if local civilian ambulatory services are used to transport wounded soldiers, the soldiers' training is severely lacking in that respect where they don't have the necessary training and kits to stabilize wounded soldiers until help arrives. Even that part needs to be there whether there is a medic transport corps or not and it isn't. Many instances where wounded parties from RPG blasts and fragmentation wounds and bleeding out could've saved lives if the training and kits were available and most of all, if an armed medic corps could get there rapidly by air to save the day instead of waiting for in-traffic civie response.

Then there's the issue of being at sea. What about the Mistral and its role? If they picked a pair of them that means they will be performing expeditionary missions to some extent and what happens then? Out at sea.

There are many, many areas in Egypt where there can be trouble and that are far far far away from reach of any civie hospital.

And what about at times of war? Your point about mobilizing is good. But there needs to be a current structure that allows for fluid participation of reserve doctors into the medic corps during immediate mobilization for war and there is no such thing, at least that I'm aware of because if there was, we would've seen military vehicles, helos and even certain aircraft donning the red recent and we haven't. They do use Chinooks and AW-139s but it's just not enough for a huge military like Egypt. They also use C-130s and CASAs but, it's kind of a mishmash operation. During war, having a well-trained and effective medic corps can be the difference between 4/5 KIA and 1/5.

I do agree on the vest and the cost of issuing it to all soldiers, but there in lies the problem. The attitude that the soldier isn't worth it? I think if we look strictly at that phenomenon, we can solve a lot of the other existing problems. Certain things like night vision and laser scopes and full vests don't need to be issued to all and that was my point with the Sa'aka's equipment not deserving of being labelled extremely poor.

You're also right about the republican guard, but not the strictly relegated to dictatorships part. The concept is right along with what many countries adopt such as the National Guard in the US. The concept of the Egyptian RG was based on the Soviet Republican Guard when it was created. They also run a lot of the ceremonial duties and things of that sort so when you say they're only there to defend dictators from coups is not entirely accurate.

Wide array of fighter jets ranging from F-5s, JF-17s, F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, Tornados to Typhoons hosted at RSAF King Abdulaziz AFB for Gulfshield 1 joint exercise.

Keep tagging me when you post pics bro.